UBB.threads
Posted By: Andrew diplomat - 05/23/2011 07:28 PM
What it is possible to tell about originality of this subject?

Attached picture IMG_4608_2.JPG
Attached picture IMG_4610_2.JPG
Attached picture IMG_4611_2.JPG
Attached picture IMG_4612_2.JPG
Attached picture IMG_4613_2.JPG
Posted By: Andrew Re: diplomat - 05/23/2011 07:30 PM
***

Attached picture IMG_4615_2.JPG
Attached picture IMG_4607_2.JPG
Posted By: wotan Re: diplomat - 05/24/2011 09:39 AM
Unnecessary disassambling (which it is in this case) is a big no no concerning edged weapons. You nearly never do anything good, mostly you do something bad. Especially such a fragile construction (because of the certain grip plates, the head screw, the ferrule and the fitting of each of the parts together) like gov and diplo daggers NEVER get the same state when they are once disassambled.
If you donīt recognize an original from a faked one in assembled state you also will not recognize it in disassambled state.
Please apologize my hard words but you do nothing good to 60+ years artefacts you perhaps want to collect or at least to sell it to any sertious collector.
This all said I cannot see any red flag and from the pics the dagger seems having been a nice original before it has been disassambled....
Regards,
Posted By: Ed Martin Re: diplomat - 05/24/2011 05:06 PM
Wotan is right most big dealers won't disassemble a Dip or Gov't. Had a friend take a Gov't apart and had a heck of a time getting the pommel screw to align up with the eagle on the top for a flush fit and he scratched the screw mad.I now have the dagger
Posted By: Andrew Re: diplomat - 05/24/2011 08:21 PM
Thanks for your opinion. This subject was disassembled not by me, and its present owner who wants it to sell. I wanted to buy it, but now I will reflect...
Posted By: anonymous 123 Re: diplomat - 05/24/2011 09:57 PM
As an aside here: Sometimes replacing something as simple as a missing political scabbard screw can be a trial. I know; I've been there and done that. Unless there's a real compelling reason IMO DON'T disassemble ededged weapons.
Jim
Posted By: Ronald Weinand Re: diplomat - 05/25/2011 10:27 PM
Some daggers, like political ones and Army and Lufts are really not a critial dis-assemble as the parts are fairly standard and, if retained in the same position and side up, will re-assemble without much trouble. THAT BEING SAID, some daggers are very nearly impossible to re-assemble without great problems or mis-fitting: Government, Diplomatic, HJ Leader to mention a few.
So, if you have not been instructed in the proper manner or not had the experience, LEAVE THEM ALONE...
Posted By: Andrew Re: diplomat - 05/27/2011 05:11 AM
Discussion has gone on any curve road. Why Army or Luft it is possible to disassemble, and the Diplomatic isn't present? Because it is cheaper? Interesting reasonings!
Posted By: JohnZ Re: diplomat - 05/27/2011 05:19 AM
Andrew, not cheaper, but more complex.

The daggers mentioned, like the Government or the HJ Leader, are not easy to disassemble and much more difficult to put back together into the same condition as originally found.

Armies and Luft2s usually can be taken apart relatively easily and also put back together safely.

But, any time you take something apart you run the risk of some kind of damage... the risk is way higher with these more complex daggers.

John
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: diplomat - 05/27/2011 06:28 AM
With age, both wood and plastic become more brittle, and I’ve seen a fairly large number of daggers of all types which have been physically damaged by taking them apart and reassembling them. And this dagger really required a well made special purpose spanner wrench just to get it apart. How many daggers are going to get wrecked in the process, and will this madness ever end?? FP
Posted By: Paul Re: diplomat - 05/27/2011 08:51 AM
IMO, With initial assembly integrity lost, any disassembled dagger effectively becomes a 'parts' piece, and as such less desirable. If it can be proven to NOT have been apart, in my eyes this attribute would command a premium.

Paul
Posted By: Andrew Re: diplomat - 05/27/2011 04:22 PM
Well. Let's return to discussion of authenticity of dagger. I have photo of several Diplomatic dagger with a logo Alkoso such how on B. But I didn't see any Alkoso diplomatic dagger such how on A. Can accept I a photo such dagger, except discussed here? Such ferrule is characteristic for Eickhorn, but not for Alkoso!

Attached picture gd11.jpg
Posted By: wotan Re: diplomat - 06/01/2011 06:08 PM
Andrew, I have registrated these more deep groved grip ring already in the first pics you have shown. I am a collector who has seen a lot of things, on items itself and on period photographs, so personally I am not the pure "textbook" type. ALCOSO diplo/gov daggers normally (at least what I remember from the few disambled in my very early days) have all parts numbered (against EICKHORN which have mostly only certain parts numbered). So in this case we would have to examine this ferrule very carefully if there is any mark (there are several possibilities of marks not necessarily numbers) corresponding with the other internal numbers "71". Generally this certain deep grooved ferrule matches perfekt in size and patination and it would need inspection if also the fit is perfect as it should be (unfortunately this is not an easy thing with a once disambled diplo/gov).
I have checked all my personal daggers and my reference photographs of ALCOSO diplo/govs and I have to admit that I found only those with the small shallow grooves.
As the dagger seems to be in very well overall condition it is hard for me to believe that somebody has switched this ferrule. I also cannot detect any other dubious part. all the parts semm to be totally and typically period. On the other hand I am not aware of the fact that EICKHORN and ALCOSO did change parts during the period.
There are miracles we will never solve for sure.
Regards,
Posted By: Andrew Re: diplomat - 06/01/2011 06:50 PM
Thanks for the detailed answer, Wotan! We will trust in miracles?:))))
Posted By: anlvd2 Re: diplomat - 06/05/2011 05:11 PM
I've studied in hands some Diplo/GO daggers before starting to buy them for my collection.
Eick has some differences against Alcoso. As I can see here all parts of this dagger are typically Alcoso. Except the ferrule. I have never seen this before, but I had in hands some Diplo/GO Alcoso daggers and notice that their original scabbards have Eick's style bands. So it makes me think that they did change parts during the period or both of them used parts from third-party manufacturers.

Hope it will help.


Attached picture IMG_0068_2_1-2.jpg
Attached picture IMG_0069_3_1-2.jpg
Attached picture IMG_0075_9_1-3.jpg
Posted By: anlvd2 Re: diplomat - 06/05/2011 05:34 PM
GO by Alcoso is on the left at the second picture.
-----
Wotan - see your PM box.
Posted By: wotan Re: diplomat - 06/06/2011 09:00 AM
Whow, THREE Eickhorn govs with the slutted pommel screw (others would not touch those daggers but we know this is a period feature), thatīs a thing! Eickhorns alone are already rare daggers.
Your statement about changing parts between Eickhorn and Alcoso is interesting because up to now I could not observe this on gov/diplo daggers. But I could observe that Puma, unmarked or any other firm that manufactured gov daggers did use mostly Alcoso parts especially the ferrule.
Have answered your PM.
Regards,
Posted By: lakesidetrader Re: diplomat - 06/06/2011 01:26 PM
Very interesting observation on the ferrule. I am in accord with you both, the deeper ferrule seems to be characteristic of Eickhorn. I am of the opinion that this feature was grooved by hand and not cast into place. When you consider that, it's understandable that there are variations in depth. Further more the slotted tang nut is absolutely right. The only thing that can hold these pieces back a bit is ignorance of the variation.
Thanks Andrew for sharing your great assembly of daggers!
Posted By: anlvd2 Re: diplomat - 06/06/2011 09:06 PM
Wotan: Yes, all unmarked Gov daggers I examined did have Alcoso parts. I guess that's the rule.

Lakesidetrader: for sure I share your opinion. Grooves were made by hand. The same as with grooves on Post, DLV, SS M36 chains, etc. I look at them as a point of authenticity, as Solingen manufacturers did them in a slightly different manner.
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 06/15/2011 10:15 PM
What would you say of this Alosco? Slightly diferent MM - Is it legit?

Attached picture 135081_resize.jpg
Attached picture 391085_resize.jpg
Posted By: zoza Re: diplomat - 06/15/2011 10:51 PM
Overlord

I am really curios about this one, is it still up for sale on the site?

If you have the other pictures post them please
Posted By: anlvd2 Re: diplomat - 06/15/2011 11:08 PM
OverLord: I don't see any problem with it.
Mine has the rarest variation of ALCOSO MM for GO/Diplo daggers (IMO):

Attached picture 1221.jpg
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 06/15/2011 11:21 PM
There you go Zoza.

Attached picture d.jpg
Attached picture d2.jpg
Attached picture d3.jpg
Posted By: zoza Re: diplomat - 06/15/2011 11:49 PM
Did you buy it?
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 06/17/2011 08:21 PM
Working on it;) Unfortunatelly denazified.
Posted By: zoza Re: diplomat - 06/17/2011 09:49 PM
I would be very careful buying this dagger ,,,

nobody that has a original diplo dagger puts it out for such a small price, it would be good if some experiense could say what they think about it.
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 06/19/2011 12:24 AM
Will see how far it goes.

Any other opinions guys? It was not taken apart so can not confirm if the numbers are there on all 3 parts. The dagger comes from germany. Are there any good fakes of allosco around?
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 06/24/2011 08:44 PM
Gone for $2500
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 07/07/2011 09:14 PM
And how about this one guys? Personally had some doubts by the way numbers are placed on the crouguard and the crossguard itself and thus passed on it. I was told though it is good recently so curious of your opinions.
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 07/07/2011 09:16 PM
Forget the army hangers...

Attached picture dypl1.jpg
Attached picture dypl2.jpg
Posted By: OverLord Re: diplomat - 07/07/2011 09:17 PM
2

Attached picture d5.jpg
Attached picture d3.jpg
Attached picture d4.jpg
Posted By: DJDR Re: diplomat - 01/12/2014 03:32 AM
Paul,
Interesting comment. So you believe that a dagger that has been taken apart and put back together has now become a parts dagger? Thus not making it a premium dagger? Less in price and value?
© Your new forums