No ???
Here it goes, the next ...

and again
it is green

the marking

i dont know if this buckle is original.

what kind of material is the buckle of??

is the stamp GZM insted RZM?

the maker M1/131 never exist.

buckles hadt to bear the Marking M4 for buckles.
the maker RZM M4/131 also never exist.

i only find the maker M9/131 for noelle & Hueck l�denscheid. later this firm made buckles.

this maker never detetected... nit to find in the list. RZM24, Rzm 57, rzm 36, rzm 63, rzm 155, rzm 822 made ss buckles.

this kind of maker stamp never used on SS buckles.

this information side is very usefull:

http://www.koppelschloss-online.de/html/ss.html

Hello gardist2003,
The buckle is nonmagnetic, maybe nickelsiver or ...
Best

yes...this type must be "neusilber"...because of the hook made out of brass.

can you read the stamps better as shown on the pics?

Hello gardist,
everything can, nothing must.
GZM M1/131

You know the owner of this side?
Best

I agree with gardist, the contract code for metal belt buckles or RZM (Reichzeugmeisterei der NSDAP) is M4. I can not find a GZM or a GZM M1/131 code, nor does this code appear in either of the Angolia or Thomas Reid references. No doubt schorschi believes it to be authentic, so then I would interested in knowing what the weight and dimensions of this buckle are. I'd also be very interested in JP's thoughts on this buckle are. ~ Ian

yes i know the owner... so it is dobble hard.

the contraktnumbers are all known. M1 or M4 131 do not exist.

on ss buckles this kind of stamped do not exist.

i�m sorry bit i think this is a newsilver repro out of england.

GZM 1/131 never exist.

allways RZM. M1 is not for buckles... it is the sign for Insignia and badges. GZM so never exist.

since 2002 many ot this buckles, also SS and HJ buckles, came into the market. all signed GZM M1/131...some with M5/131 and all looks like a ground dug item.

Hello gardist2003,
Hello bushido,
i can understand Your distrust, but everything
is ok with this buckle.
A guess a handfull of collectors know more,
and i maybe You both too, can understand
that this honest peopel keep here sekret safe.
It is a lo of work to find out, and they spend a lot od time ....

@gardist2003, his name is Georg ;-) Yes?

Schorschi, please expand on your statement that 'everything is ok with this buckle'?

I am interested to hear why you think this buckle is good or bad..

I do it like this way:
reading, compare images, reading, compare,
come to a end (1+1+1 ....),
You can read something about this buckle.
In books or other forums.
Whis this buckle i whas 90 % sure that this
is ok,
To make it safe, the last 10%
no risk no fun

And 2 weeks ago i ...
And when i think about it,
my "feelings" about this buckle
grow to 150 % sure that this is ok.

Belive it or not, it is on you.
best

Sorry schorschi . . . but I would love to know what references you read or images you compared it to that convinced you it was good? As I've already said, can we have its weight and the measured dimensions of every part of this buckle, because from my reading and image comparing and reading, this buckle wasn't made in Nazi Germany . . . or if it was . . . it's been messed with! ~ Ian

Well, i will give you my reasons i do not like this buckle..soft strike, compendium of 2 different SS buckle designs (front and rear..)

Material of buckle is strange..

Markings and code...buckles were never stamped M1 and i have never seen a 'GZM' marking before..that design was exclusive for the RZM, and the Nazi party would never condone a stamping in this fashion.

Is this buckle finished in green or is this the light hitting a silver finish..as you know, only Rodo produced buckles came finished in green.

well... i often find this problem. Everything is possible.. but this is not correct.

in germany we said "die normative Kraft des Faktischen".

since ca. 2002...not before... diverent buckles...all looks like dugg founds... came into the market.
I remember the discussions in a lot of forums.

GZM... this bureau or office never illustreted... never be a part of a report. and this is not possible.

M1...this is a mi�take i don�t think it is possible.

the form of front and back side dont match.


the backside looks like a produkt of the OLT buckle maker.

and... newsilver don�t oxidide in this way in a natural way. i think the material is not ok or the faker work with acid.

I also think this is a reproduction. If this was offered to me, I would pass.

Cheers...

Rob

definitely a bad buckle,,,better luck next time

I see this buckle in Poland hand as super rarity.I think this is ,,super" copy.

It's a reproduction, but there is nothing 'super' about it!..it is fairly pedestrian as far as repro's go..

There must be more SS buckles floating around now than there was in 1945!!

So, very interesting buckle and discussion... My friend showed us identical example months ago. It is dug one....

reverse...

And markings...

There are too many flaws and errors to consider any of these buckles real, dug up or no..

Jan, do you think someone is playing a gag?

Doug, I know there are too many questions but I don't think someone is playing a gag... I trust my friend, and in area he told me about were at least three others found...Sounds like a fairytale, but he promised another pics of another examples. We will see.

Jan

can you send better pics from the hooks please?

hmmm... the material oxid in the same way... untypical.

the eagle looks a little bit like a early overhoff one... but only a little bit.

the front looks not original... also, GMZ for a big state office (a realy big) never recorded... surely a joke like olt

So, here are better pics...

second...

third...

fourth... prongs (hooks? I am not sure about proper term) were totally corroded, and replaced with better ones... you can see the rust around the hole..

thank you for the pics.

i also think these ones are not original.the details of the front and backside are very differnet to the other models. the RZM would never give permission to bear the Rzm logo like a trademark.

GZM for exampel never exist.

the origin of the reichszeugmeisterei lay in 1926. the institution fiest called "SA-Wirtschaftsstelle".

In 1928 in Munich the first "Zeugmeisterei" were build. when it became more and more the munich bureau get into the position of a coordination bureau und bear the name "reichszeugmeister"

in 1933 the rzm became a part of the "Hauptamt VIII des Beschaffungsamtes der NSDAP"

there is not only one informaton about a GZM bureau...

the ss buckle exists since 1927 (eclusive from Overhoff).
the rzm license / contrakt numbers were given in 1934...

yes there is rust... but newsilver cant be rusty.

and why is the iron steelnail not rusty??

Gardist, it is not rusted because it was replaced from another buckle... And the rust came from original one.
When I get pics of another examples I will post it, just for interest.

Jan

Well, I might as well add my two cents... Each of the original buckle manufacturers had a distinct style of eagle that can be easily identified once you learn what to look for. The eagle on this (these) buckles is unlike any of the original eagles that I am familiar with. Also, the details of the rope and lettering is poor in my opinion and if offered any of these buckles I would pass.
As for the current trend of collecting ground dug items, I think that this only makes it easier for fakers to pass off bad items by hiding the flaws in fake buckles by using artificial aging techniques.