We all know the early Carl Wüsthöf "Gladiator" blades.

Some of these have HJ etchings on pommel and/or blade.

Here is what appears 4 of these...

Any comments?

Best regards,

Herman

Hi Herman,


I have always wondered to this day if these knifes were etched post war or not ??, do you or anybody have some evidence that these trench knifes were etched in very early period of the TR ?, this would put my mind at ease.


Regards Mac 66.

Hi Scott,

Yes, I heard that recently somewhere some scepticism surfaced about these wonderful early HJ's.
Personally I don't doubt them: years ago, I got one directly from the German initial owner's family... for the price of... a regular HJ-knife!

What I wanted to show here, is that Carl Wüsthöf was not the sole producer of these...

Best regards,

Herman

Hi Herman,

Its the honour bayo/knifes with the SS & HJ etched mottoed blades with etched pommels i was wondering about mostly ?

personally i like your knifes with Gladiator marked blades,

is that an early WKC logo i see ?



Regards Mac 66.

I owned one of these HJ "Honor Bayonets" with etched pommel & blade. It was dual marked Wüsthof & Gladiator. The knife was heavy in hand, very well made with exquisite detailing to the etch.

After owning it for a number of years, I believe for a variety of reasons that it was an early version of an HJ knife, prior to standardization.

The pommel was etched with a fine HJ motif. Although some have been seen with painted details, this one had no evidence of any paint.

The blade had an SS motto etched although the word "heißt" was spelled "heisst". I don't know if anyone has answered the question as to why an HJ knife would proclaim an SS motto, but there you have it. You can also see the onverse marked by Wüsthof. The stag grip plates were also a really nice touch, we don't see too many with the stag.

Reverse blade shows the Gladiatorwerk mark & some slight evidence of a half-hearted attempt at sharpening. In hand, it really wasn't noticeable. Just a well made knife all around.

Hi Billy,


Thanks for posting pix of your honour bayo !

now why put the SS motto on the blade & HJ insignia on the pommel ?

spelling mistake in the SS motto ?

now i,m even more confused , were these post war etched to make them more valuable ?



Regards Mac 66.

Hi Billy,


These hj honour bayos have been discussed on the HJ Research Forum:



http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/hitler-youth-honour-daggers-bayonets-6882/



Regards Mac 66.

Guys,

These are shown in early catalogs and are listed as an "Armeedolch". A style worn by WWI Officers in lieu of swords they carried over for wear prior to the adoption of the Heer Officer dagger. WKC shows one as their No.93 illustrated next to a HJ Fahrtenmesser with a false push button in the pommel and a 15cm long slab sided blade.

Hi Opro,


Thanks for this important info !

can you show a pic from the WKC catalogue No.93 please ?



Thanks Mac 66

Hi Scott,

I just took a quick look at that "HJ-research" forum topic... they sure have some interesting researchers over there... most of them never have even held or seen one of these early Carl Wüsthöf knifes.

So please, let's keep the focus of this topic: I look for more variants of the gladiator type knife, with or without any etches.


Hi Billy,

Thank you for showing that super piece with the stag grips!


Scott,

the ones that I show are by "E&F Hörster" and by an unidentified maker with a "bull" logo... (see picture)
Note that their guards are quite different compared to the Carl Wüsthöf "Gladiator".

Any other variants out there?

Best regards,

Herman

Here is another variant: Carl Wüsthöf "Gladiator" with blued blade and black guards, which is another indication that these are very early, pre 3R-regulation pieces.

Best regards,

Herman

Very cool variant Herman, thanks for showing it off

Herman,


Does your Horster, Bull logo, Wusthof blued blade knifes have the etch on the other side of the blade ?, are the etches the same quality as the quality etches we see on the various TR bayos ?


Regards Mac 66.

Eickhorn made these also.

Researchers like Saris for example? Oh yes, Saris is indeed clueless isn't he... There is no evidence whatsoever that these HJ and SS engraved knives are period. R. Weinand has tried (and failed) on many occasions to prove that they are from the period. The style of knife yes, of course, but notr those engravings on the handle. The simple act of having one in hand today does not mean that they are from the period.

These are the types that yell fire in theater. Herman V. is correct.

Hi Ron,

The Eickhorn version was based on their early fighting knife and did not have the very heavy, one piece hilt-blade construction like the Carl Wüsthöf and the others that I show here.

Hi Scott,

WKC also did not make this type of knife.
I believe, that during that period (end 20ties, early 30ies) this company was only producing their famous bowie blade fighting knifes. I never found them with any early NSDAP markings or mottos.

Finally:
I really don't want to put any effort in convincing these so called "researchers", because really, this is so very basic...

But just for Scott:
Yes, these etchings are of fine, early quality. And just as we could expect, the hilt etchings suffered much more than the blade ones, which were protected by their scabbards.
As a result, most of the hilts have lost (almost) all of their paint and many have suffered from some corrosion. (see attached pics)

The "Gladiator" type pieces often only show hilt etchings, combined with blank blades.

The "drop point" blades often show both etchings. (see attached pics)

I have seen these knifes also in very abused condition: with half the blade (and etching) sharpened away, reducing the collector value to almost 0.

There are also a handful mint conditioned ones out there, but they never appear for sale... for obvious reasons!

But I was hoping to see some more different types here?

Best regards,

Herman

[quote=Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)


But just for Scott:
Yes, these etchings are of fine, early quality. And just as we could expect, the hilt etchings suffered much more than the blade ones, which were protected by their scabbards.
As a result, most of the hilts have lost (almost) all of their paint and many have suffered from some corrosion. (see attached pics)

The "Gladiator" type pieces often only show hilt etchings, combined with blank blades.

The "drop point" blades often show both etchings. (see attached pics)

I have seen these knifes also in very abused condition: with half the blade (and etching) sharpened away, reducing the collector value to almost 0.

There are also a handful mint conditioned ones out there, but they never appear for sale... for obvious reasons!

But I was hoping to see some more different types here?






Hi Herman,


Thanks for taking the time to post pix of your knifes with explanation/info about the etches !!, i only ask questions about such subjects because i am not sure myself but willing to learn, this is what forums are all about right ?, sorry to derail your thread from your origional subject of different types, one more question i forgot > why is the blade motto etch upside down on all these knifes ?


Regards Mac 66.

You are welcome, Scott.

"Why the motto is upside down?" that is exactly the question that the owners of these very early HJ-knifes must have had at the moment that they received their new, standardised & regulated HJ-daggers...

If you are familiar with (early) dress bayonets, you will notice that the etching is most often positioned the same way. I guess that is why these early HJ-knifes are often referred to as "honour bayonets".

Best regards,

Herman

Hi Herman,


I see what you mean with early etched dress bayos, seems like this was the way etches were applied back then, thanks again



Best Mac 66.

I mean no disrespect to you Herman but I'm still very definitely unconvinced by any argument based on the twin towers of "I got one directly from the family/vet" and "I just know that these etchings are authentic because I've touched them". Herman you seem much more knowledgeable on blades than Weinand and I very much like your forthright approach but you seem to be treading Weinand's "path of least evidence". This is the one where he ends up disengaging from conversation (I know that you won't do that) when he is pushed to provide hard evidence in support of statements and pronouncements he has made on items. I have seen him doing so on numerous occasions on WA over the years and hope that you will veer away a little from his approach so that you (we) might come up with something tangible and verifiable that puts these etched knives into the period. However, if the basis of discussion is to remain at a vet story and your confidence in your decision that the etchings are period then I'm afraid that I will retain the same level of scepticism on these these "SS" and "HJ" knives that I have had since Weinand tried to explain them on WA.

In my opinion, the only reason anyone even considers that these etched knives might be from the period is because they were afforded prominence in print by Johnson and supported by Wittman, Weinand etc. But, let's not forget other items that were featured in the same way and that have long since been debunked.

Edit: I mentioned it further up the page but just to be clear; I do not question the knives themselves but rather the etchings on the knives. Thanks.

Again, I have no interest in convincing you (or anyone else), Nork: if you don't see it... that's fine with me!

I am buying these knifes, not selling them!

Herman

No, I definitely don't see what you see. When I look at post #314279 I just see gaudy and actually quite ugly knives whose existence in the period has never been established. The other type of knife that you show in post #314032 earlier in the thread actually looks nice (the one with the HJ emblem) but it suffers from the same problem. No period photos are known to me that show these engraved knives in wear by either HJ or SS. Weinand once tried to convince people that he had found the photographic evidence for the HJ but it turns out that the photo isn't even of a HJ member and it didn't show engravings. See this post by Saris in a thread where that photo was discussed:

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/hitler-youth-honour-daggers-bayonets-6882/index2.html#post48474

However, as you have no interest in discussing any opposing viewpoints I will gracefully exit stage left but thanks for responding.