An item in Tom Wittmann's stock - HYK #34889 - attracted my attention although I'm not an HJ/DJ collector.

The knife - see below - is what most seem to refer to as a DJ knife. It is the one without the diamond on the scabbard. I've also seen it sold at a premium as a BDM knife.

The knife is as expected and in great shape. It is the bag that caught my interest:

The bag states: “Verschriftsmässige / Fahrtenmesser / für die / Hitler Jugend / und das / Deutsche / Jungvolk”

BOTH ??

Tom Wittmann says "I have always felt that what we call a DJ knife was really the knife that was being made for both the Hitler Youth and the DJ after 1942 when the war was raging. This issue sack and accompanying knife proves this statement."

What is your opinion? Separate knives until 1942 then a single one for both? Something else?

And, if this knife without any diamond affixed is HJ/DJ then was there really a BDM knife? Does anyone have a picture of a young lady wearing such a knife?

Dave

hi dave/ members
as you know i dont post much but i believe you have a great case here with this original paper bag as good dna evidence for your case says right on it jungvolk . now correct me if im wrong my understanding for my over fifty years in this wonderfull hobby that hitler yugen boys started at the age of 9 years to 11 years then hitler youth 12 years age to 15 years age not sure about the girls bdm . i have never seen a picture yet of a bdm girl wearing this hj knife not saying it dont exist the maker of your pictured bag reads arthur schuttelhofer i wonder if he was the only maker of this hj knives all of the hj knives i ever seen the blade was all ways rostifi stainless and the cross guard and the hilt was all ways made of aluminum very lite weight . in my humble opinion i believe tom wittmann is right with saying that they were hitler yugen knives . also think about this for many years us collectors never bought any hitler youth knives with white or black plastic straps we all thought they were after market in place of the leather strap . boy i said this many years ago we should never say never in this great military hobby dave lets see what outhers think and thank you for your alertness in this matter i believe you helped to get us closer to the truth you made a difference thanks andy militarynut

Wow. The bag is great. Good stuff. Just when you think you have seen it all. Ha Ha. The only thing that could be better in this vane would be the heavy hilt Klaas/bag. Thanks for sharing.

Dave,


My opinion is the DJ knife shown here has nothing to do with the Hitler Youth or DJ, BDM, simply a non political universal knife made for the masses, the Hj knife was used by the Hj & Dj imo.

The paper bag shown was for a maker marked Artur Schuttlehofer hitler youth knife only, why isnt the so called DJ knife maker marked or RZM marked for A.Schuttlehofer?, these "DJ KNIFES" also come in many other disguises

Regards Mac 66.

I think Mac66 hit the nail.
I own a lot of "wearing" pics and even in the earliest ones you clearly can see that the DJ (IF they do wear a knife) does wear the "common" HJknife. I do have some pics where obviously private, altered knives are worn. But up to now I have never seen or heard of a period wearing pic whith anything which comes close to such a "Dj" knife.
Regards,

Does the maker's name on the bag imply that the knife contained must be maker marked? I am not that conversant with dagger bags.

Yes, i,m pretty sure this bag contained an early Asso hobby horse trademarked hj knife.



Regards Mac 66.

I agree: this appears to be a DJ knife married (not saying this was done by TW) to a bag for a classic HJ by Arthur Schüttelhöfer.

As you know I am a strong non-believer when it comes to DJ-knifes and all of the variants which circulate like Olympia and Nürnberg knifes.

Came to this conclusion after thorough examination of my own DJ-knife, which shows (real) age and wear. (see hereunder)

The construction and materials used for the DJ-knife, differ too much from the classic (even very late period) HJ's.

So they also have nothing in common with late Schüttelhöfer HJ's, to keep focus on the topic.

Best regards,

Herman

Dave there are very knowledgeable people on both sides of the "DJ Discussion". Talking with TW a few years ago he told me he has a period picture of a kid wearing one. He also spoke to this at an open discussion forum at the MAX a few years ago. I know you work with Tom at the shows perhaps you could ask him for it?

Quote Dave:

Tom Wittmann says "I have always felt that what we call a DJ knife was really the knife that was being made for both the Hitler Youth and the DJ after 1942 when the war was raging. This issue sack and accompanying knife proves this statement."

I disagree. Sill many questions to be answered

Regards Mac 66.

[quote=lakesidetrader]Dave there are very knowledgeable people on both sides of the "DJ Discussion". Talking with TW a few years ago he told me he has a period picture of a kid wearing one.

Paul,

That picture would need to be very clear indeed to make 100% sure its not a WW1 trench knife or an hj knife thats lost its diamond ? or some similar type knife ?

Regards Mac 66.

Mac,

I have slightly modified your posts. You can disagree with others but please do not use insults. Thanks.

Dave

In June of 1941 it was stated that the award of the SS Honor Swords was being discontinued due to a lack of steel, but there is some question as to the notice taking effect. But a year later it unquestionably was a "done deal". And we see (arguably) early 1942 RZM examples of various items, but not a lot of them. We also see in 1942 a sharp decline in the quality standards for military production. And there is much, much, more as Germany was short on the materials (and labor as workers were called up to serve after the mobilization was put in effect) from almost day one. So they find the resources to make unauthorized knives (for which there is no period documentation) for the younger boys so they will have a good National Socialist upbringing and make good soldiers for the Reich when they grow up?? Or for the young girls so they also will make good soldiers?? And that's without the obviously fake counterfeiters "Party Day" test piece I posted here 10 or so years ago, the terrible quality "Olympic" knives etc. etc. Regards, Fred

Dave, there was no insults from me to anyone on this forum, whats the use having a discussion ?,important info was deleted.


Mac 66.

I attach a period photo of a youngster wearing the regulation HJ knife. Maybe the HJ experts can make some deductions from an estimate of his age and uniform detail.
To me he looks young enough only to be in the DJ and having passed the requisite tests is allowed to wear the HJ knife, as opposed to the authorised wear entitlement of a full HJ member.

Mac,

Only things deleted were a couple of remarks that contributed no info, important or not.

I see some interesting areas to pursue:

Bags:

- Were bags with a maker's name exclusively used for maker/rzm marked HJ knives?

- Does anyone have pictures of HJ / DJ issue bags, with or without knives?

"DJ" Knives:

- Hermann has shown us his. Does anyone else have pictures to show?

- Are any of these marked in any way, not counting the Olympic ones? Dates? RZM marks

- Anyone get any from vets? Ron Weinand? Mr. Grant?

In Wear Pictures:

Thanks, Barry, anyone else?

Now,

Just to confuse things a bit, below is an image from my files. I know I downloaded it in 2004, but from where I have no memory.

This is the second bag that says HJ/DJ. Also has the maker's mark, but it appears to have an unissued DJ (?) knife with a tag.

Thoughts?

Interesting, Dave!

A theory which, in my opinion, makes sense is that these unmarked DJ's were fabricated just after the war and sold as souvenir knifes to the foreign, occupying troops:

- It explains why some (like mine) show the same age as period, regular HJ's

- Most DJ's bear no diamond insignum (or only an easy removeble one on the scabbard) and other 3R marks (like RZM) because that might have caused problems for the producer(s) after the war.

- DJ's also don't have the producers maker mark: it would indicate that the firm had most likely been working (making weapons!) for the nazis during the war.

- Just after the war, there was an abundance of plane wrecks of shot down Britisch and American bombers all over Germany, which could explain why the DJ hilts are always made of (during the war valuable!) aluminium. I have never found a period HJ with a real aluminium hilt. Before the war, this material was only used for certain Wehrmacht (most Luftwaffe) etched weapons.

- Maybe some firms did pack these souvenir knifes in leftover bags for period HJ's. This might also explain why so many original bags (and tags) are found in the US, Canada and the UK, rather than in Germany...

Best regards,

Herman

Gentlemen,

I agree with Herman. I've never seen an official document where you can read something about the regulations to a DJ knife and have never seen a picture of a of a kid wearing one. I have a calendar for the German state officers from the year 1936. In this book you can read that the HJ and DJ had a same knives(Fahrtenmesser). And BDM has no knives.
I have in my collection a very late HJ knife with a RZM label with an inscription "HJ.-DJ. Fahrtenmesser", which confirms that both organizations had a same knives.
Only my humble opinion.

Best,
Oleg.

And here my HJ knife.

Hi Oleg67,


This is very clear written "hard evidence" you have shown us from your 1936 RDB calender, also you show your top condition K&M trademarked RZM # 1942 dated hj knife with origional tag clearly showing it was for HJ & DJ, Superb!!


@ Herman, i totally agree with you, Aluminium was very precious during the period to feed the war machine, with all the plane wrecks post war there was plenty Aluminium around to produce these post war DJ knifes.


@ Barry, thats a great photo you have shown also, thanks.


Regards Mac 66.

Herman, I absolutely agree with you.
So what's the size of the diamond on the scabbard?
It must be the large one,right?
Is anyone have or seen the markings on these diamonds?

Stingray

Wow killer 1942 HJ!!

Photos may be the key to this. Finding HJ in-wear photos is not too difficult. The HJ seem to wear the accepted knife or no knife.

DJ Pictures are much harder, not the least because of their dark short pants which tend to hide a black knife.

This photo title includes "HJ" but some of them look pretty young. The one on the right with a shirt on seems to have a regulation HJ knife

So does the boy on the right ... but the dagger seems to be higher placed on the belt.

But, these two youngsters are wearing what appears to be a leather sheath for their knives.

Gentlemen,

I have to say that I'm not a DJ/HJ knife collector and my knowledge on these items is more than limited.

However I have some problems with labeling a "Fahrtenmesser" without any insignias of the former Nazi organisations as a DJ/HJ knife.

First of all as far as I understood the DJ and HJ the knifes were the same.
So imo Dave is perfectly right with his observation on the paper bag which started this thread.
This is pretty obvious from the regulations we have. The regulations are describing an identical knife, with the diamond insignia, for both groups.
I've attached the regulations and a photo out of my collection showing a DJ member wearing the described knife.

Please allow me to say a few words about "Fahrtenmesser" without any insignias.
I do remember when I was a kid back in the early 70's. For a two week trip into the "Zeltlager" my mother bought a Fahrtenmesser for me. It was exactly like the DJ/HJ knife, but of course without any insignias. And it was made in the late 60's, early 70's.
I think on the German amazon.de they are still available nowadays.

Of course, my friend Tom Wittmann could be perfectly right describing some "Fahrtenmesser" w/o any insignias as late war production HJ-knifes, but there is no regulation or any other proof until now as far as I understand, isn't it?

As said, it is not my field, and I would be happy to learn. These are just my two centavos on the matter and I beg for forgiveness if my thinking is wrong, which easily could be possible.
Best;
Flyingdutchman

"Fahrten Messers predate and postdate the TR period. You occasionally see pre-TR examples offered for sale. Most with no insignia, some with the insignia of the many youth groups that predated the forced consolidation of them all into the HJ.

I saw and almost bought a modern version in 1963 in Koln. Looks like the wartime ones except the scabbard has a lip ans their was a green fleur-de-lis diamond in the grip.

dave

Oleg,

Interesting period book and a super K&M 1942 HJ dagger, thank you for showing both!


Stingray,

Yes the diamond on the DJ scabbard is a late large one, but I cannot see the markings (would have to remove it).

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

my pleasure.

Best,
Oleg.

That K&M 1942 is an outstanding example of a late manufacture HJ-DJ knife! And I’m in agreement with the above comments as it relates to a postwar origin of the so-called BDM or it’s variants labeled as “DJ” knives (and other PW clones). I also very much like both the calendar, and the book excerpt from Flying Dutchman that provides a good visual reference of what it is that is actually legitimate. Instead of some of the guessing that has taken place in the past with different items trying to rationalize something for which there is no legitimate period evidnce.

With manufacturing standards for weapons continuing to go downhill in 1943, there was an ongoing project to save labor and resources so that they could be reallocated to other wartime efforts. With a formal recommendation in January of 1944, that was initially rejected, to eliminate both the cleaning rod and bayonet mounting bar (and other changes) for rifles. The program was officially resurrected later in the year as the Kriegsmodell. With the OKH (if I remember it correctly) also meeting in 1944 to discuss discontinuing the manufacture of combat bayonets. That was followed shortly thereafter by a major bombing raid on Solingen that destroyed much of the city, damaging many companies, and putting some of the larger ones out of business. So just when were these “BDM” (et al.) knives supposed to have been made?? Regards, Fred

Good honest Info & photos on this thread !

So i hope most collectors are now even more convinced that these so called "DJ Knifes" are post war produced & i hope the dealers that sell these for big money read this thread & the thread on WAF take note & stop selling these "POST WAR" knifes asap.


Link to WA thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606446


Regards Mac 66.

Can you please show us your proof that they are Post War ?

All the main facts are in this thread & WA thread, there is also a thread on Hj Research Forum, thats enough proof for me, if theres any solid proof there genuine TR period produced for the DJ we would all like to see it.


Mac 66.

Heres the link to a very good thread on HJ Research forum:


http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/lets-talk-about-deutsches-jungvolk-knife-bdm-knife-6802/

Link to Olympic & Reichsparteitag on HJ Research:


http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/let...g-daggers-6803/

I don't belong to WAF, and would like to have the knowledge here. Please post proof her on GDC to support your claim that these are post war.

Thanks

Has anyone 1 photo with this famous DJ knife in wear???Never seen.

No one should be in any doubt that these so-called DJ and BDM knives are anything more than a fantasy:

See the two links posted by Mac above and also this one

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606446

The above thread also contains discussion of the bag as I remeber. If not, the discussion will be on the HJ Research forum

Those who belive that the "DJ" and "BDM" knives are period items have the burden of proof.

PS: there is no Wittmann photo. It does not exist.

Matarese,

Correct no in-wear photos.

Nork,

As I mentioned on the previous page to Mac, we need to have the info here, rather than on another site. Could you please post the key points proving these are post-war.

thanks

A few other questions for everyone:

Has anyone seen a "DJ" style knife with a maker/RZM mark?

Has anyone seen one with the grip plates off? Any marks?

On the version with an HJ diamond on the scabbard, is it glued or pined?

Dave

Hi,

Sorry, I don't have the time to do that. It wouldn't take you too long to copy the relevant points across to this thread though. I must say that it always seems to be the case that the doubters are required to carry the burden of proof - even when the believers offer none. Perhaps it would be useful and, dare I say, radical, if the believers were to post some primary literature, photos in support of these knives. Currently the primary literature and complete absence of photos are carrying the case for those who believe these knives to be a fantasy created by certain dealers. I don't see this situation changing any time soon but I am always receptive to verifiable evidence that might change my opinion.

I'd the 2 pattern in my collection but I haven't keep them.
On the version with the HJ diamond on scabbard, the HJ diamond is pined & moove, never glued.
What is very strange is that all dagger are found in wear on period photos especially very rare one (napola, Teno, postchhutz, Feldherrnhalle...).
DJ jungs were so many & ANY photos or always seen with HJ dagger. For me it's a proof that these DJ knife don't exist during III Reich.

Pinned HJ insignia

Dave & others,

The diamond on my DJ-knife is indeed attached with pins & it whiggles.

Best regards,

Herman

With the pin types besides protruding away from the body of the scabbard, with many of them they are misaligned, sometimes by quite a bit. With some others glued, although it’s had to say without an X-Ray if they were made that way, or were repairs for broken off emblems. With the example here showing the way the emblems were installed by drilling through into the interior damaging it. With this being the only “RZM” marked one that I’ve seen, with the (supposedly period) “RZM” marking using an inverted stamp with no identifiers, just the inverted “RZM”. BTW: A well known dealer who at the time he was selling them (the “BDM” no emblem type), said that those in a batch he had acquired (in as new condition) were wrapped in a piece of plain brown paper with a string tied around the knife. No bags. Regards, Fred

Guys,


Heres another Question, If these knifes were intended for use by the DJ would it not be more sensible to put the proper DJ Sig-rune enamel badge insignia in the griplate same as the hj knife? instead of an HJ diamond insignia crudely attached to the scabbard where it can easily get pulled or snagged then damaged or lost?.... looks like the fakers made a mistake



Regards Mac 66.

I don't think that the theory has legs Mac. The Jungvolk had a character more akin to the pre-HJ Bündische youth for many years (good article here: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f48/history-deutsches-jungvolk-4905/)and this was slowly but surely eradicated by the Reichsjugendführung. The DJ badge went, the DJ buckle went and so did the DJ-specific rank insignia. The only remnant left at the end was the rune sleeve patch. The membership badge of the Hitler Youth, which obviously included the Jungvolk, was the diamond and I simply cannot see anyone making the decision to allow the DJ to wear a redundant badge on these knives. In any case, the badge you show there became an honour badge that showed early membership of the DJ and was only permitted to be worn on civilian clothing long before the period in which these knives are said (by those who like them) to have been in use.

@Dave Hohaus:

It can be proven through the use of the document shown earlier in the thread and in many, many other period sources that the DJ wore the standard HJ knife. I refer you to the threads mentioned earlier. No proof has ever been shown that would allow the collector to reach any other conclusion. The case against these knives is solid so perhaps it would be more productive to push the believers for their evidence rather than repeating what has already been established on other forums.

Hi Nork,


No worries it was just me thinking out loud, DJ used the same knife as HJ with diamond insignia, enough said by me on this thread.


Regards Mac 66.

While I think that there is an abundance of evidence that disproves the legitimacy of a NSDAP - Third Reich connection for the various aluminum hilted “small knives”. And no one has brought forth any actual period proof otherwise as regards the so-called “BDM” or “DJ” versions. Or the more commonly seen earliest version of the “Party Day” aluminum "small knife" that could conceivably (in theory) be arguable - but two senior GDC forum members recall a circa 1980’s first appearance that was discussed on the Forum a while back. And the “Olympic" knife version which is not arguable IMO with an HJ emblem in the grip, and the very shoddy workmanship that some examples exhibit, as not being looked at as anything other than postwar. And likewise the different hybrids/combinations that are periodically seen for sale: with different grips, etchings, sometimes “maker” logos, etc. that make up the rest of this group of knives from being viewed as simply "specialty items" made for the collectors market, and/or to get around the negative comments seen on various forums at different times.

And with that said, I would like to reintroduce some additional documentation with first a 1933 law protecting NSDAP symbols.

MAY 19, 1933
Gesetz zum Schutze der nationalen Symbole. Vom 19. Mai 1933.
  Die Reichsregierung hat das folgende Gesetz beschlossen, das hiermit verkündet wird:
§ 1   Es ist verboten, die Symbole der deutschen Geschichte, des deutschen Staates und der nationalen Erhebung in Deutschland öffentlich in einer Weise zu verwenden, die geeignet ist, das Empfinden von der Würde dieser Symbole zu verletzen.
§ 2   Die höhere Verwaltungsbehörde des Herstellungsortes entscheidet, ob ein Gegenstand der Vorschrift des § 1 zuwider in Verkehr gebracht worden ist. In diesem Fall unterliegen Gegenstände dieser Art der entschädigungslosen Einziehung.
§ 3   Die Polizeibehörden können schon vor der Entscheidung des höheren Verwaltungsbehörden die Beschlagnahme des Gegenstandes vornehmen, wenn nach ihrem Ermessen ein Verstoß gegen das Verbot des § 1 vorliegt. Sie haben in solchen Fällen unverzüglich der für die Entscheidung zuständigen Verwaltungsbehörde Mitteilung zu machen.
§ 4   [1] Gegen die Entscheidung der höheren Verwaltungsbehörde können Beteiligte binnen 2 Wochen Beschwerde bei der obersten Landesbehörde einlegen. Die Beschwerde hat keine aufschiebende Wirkung.
  [2] Der Reichsminister für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda sowie die der höheren Verwaltungsbehörde übergeordnete Landesregierung können durch einen von ihnen bestellten Vertreter des öffentlichen Interesses innerhalb der im Absatz 1 bestimmten Frist ebenfalls die Entscheidung der obersten Landesbehörde anrufen.
  [3] Bis zur Rechtskraft der Entscheidung gilt die von der höheren Verwaltungsbehörde verfügte Einziehung als Beschlagnahme.
§ 5   Für die Wirkungen einer Beschlagnahme wird Entschädigung auch dann nicht gewährt, wenn rechtskräftig entschieden wird, daß ein Verstoß gegen das Verbot des § 1 nicht vorliegt.........................

Berlin, den 19. Mai 1933.

Der Reichskanzler
Adolf Hitler
Der Reichsminister
für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda
Dr. Goebbels
Der Reichsminister des Innern
Frick

Amended a little later in 1933, and in 1934, to clarify some issues and establish penalties for violating the law. And then in 1935 the following:

JANUARY 16, 1935
Bekanntmachung gemäß Artikel 1 § 5 des Gesetzes gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen vom 20. Dezember 1934 (Reichsgesetzbl. I S. 1269). Vom 16. Januar 1935.
Nach Artikel 1 § 5 des Gesetzes gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen vom 20. Dezember 1934 dürfen parteiamtliche Uniformen, Uniformteile, Gewebe, Fahnen und Abzeichen der NSDAP, ihrer Gliederungen oder der ihr angeschlossenen Verbände nur mit Erlaubnis des Reichsschatzmeisters der NSDAP  gewerbsmäßig hergestellt, vorrätig gehalten, feilgehalten oder sonst in Verkehr gebracht werden.
  Auf Grund des Artikels 1 § 5 Abs. 1 Satz 2 des genannten Gesetzes bestimme ich im Einvernehmen mit dem Reichswirtschaftsminister die Uniformteile und Gewebe, für die es der Erlaubnis bedarf, wie folgt:
I. Uniformteile
1. Bekleidungsgegenstände für die Politische Organisation der NSDAP, für SA und SA-Marine, für die SS, für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahr-Korps, für die Hitler-Jugend mit dem Deutschen Jungvolk, dem Bund Deutscher Mädel und den Jungmädeln sowie für die Deutsche Arbeitsfront:...................
2. Sonstige Uniformteile:
Leibriemen mit einer Mindestbreite von 45 Millimetern, Schulterriemen, Sturzhelme für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahr-Korps, Koppelschlösser, Zweidornschnallen, Dienstdolche der SA und SS, Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk, Ärmelabzeichen, Ärmelstreifen, Armbinden, .....................

Berlin, den 16. Januar 1935.

Der Reichsschatzmeister der NSDAP
und Generalbevollmächtigte des Führers
in allen vermögensrechtlichen Angelegenheiten
der NSDAP
Schwarz
Der Reichswirtschaftsminister
Mit der Führung der Geschäfte beauftragt:
Hjalmar Schacht
Präsident des Reichsbankdirektoriums

Do we see listed above a so-called “BDM” knife? Or a separate “DJ” knife? Or any of the hybrid knives that are seen for sale every so often? And was the NSDAP (and by extension the RZM) still in control of Germany not only in the early years, but also from 1942 to the end? Regards, Fred

PS: With my apologies for the length of this posting.

And from an earlier GDC discussion. Here is a counterfeiters test etching of the "Party Day" knife, with the new etching superimposed over an original old worn, and pitted blade. Regards, Fred

Here is a real & very early DJ-knife.



Best regards,

Herman

Good find, Herman.

I think if we keep looking more info will emerge, especially in period photos.

In searching through photos, most of the DJ have no knives at all. A few have HJ knives as we have seen here, but a few also had knives carried in a leather sheath. Two were pictured above and here is another.

I have looked through my nearly 1700 wearing photographs and I finally found the DJ knife without emblem in a period wearing pic.

BUT... it is not what it looks at the first glance. It is a WWI trench knife worn by a DJmember in lack of a real HYknife.
Regards,

I guarantee that no one will ever find a period, unaltered photo showing the "DJ" knife in wear. I admire the dedication shown by correspondents on this thread but believe me, no, believe history - it's pointless. People have been duped for decades and the culprits refuse to speak up. Ask Mr Wittmann to show you evidence, ask Mr Johnson, indeed, ask anyone who believes in these knives to show proof that they are from the period and that the DJ wore them. None of these people will be able to show anything verifiable - at all. The best you can hope for is that someone will say "well T Wittmann likes them and he wrote lots of books (with no footnotes) so it MUST be true!". Sadly, that is the state of affairs that has existed for many years.

Very nice knife by the way Hermann V.

There is an older thread that I bumped up yesterday that is very much worth reading. There are some very interesting photos on pages 6 & 7 that ad to this discussion. it is called 'Nurnburg, Olympic, DJ, BDM"

DJ youngs again with HJ knife!

Here are three kids being .... kids

I have been asking experienced guys that I know on this subject.

One of them say that there exists a version of the "DJ" knife that is much heavier, being made of iron or steel or a heavier alloy. The one he saw was trademarked with the Robert Klass kissing cranes. No RZM.

Anybody else aware of this?

Hi Dave,

You must have been told about the Klaas HJ with small bowie blade.

Another tough case: believed to be post war produced with the "fleur-de-lys" emblem replaced by an HJ diamond...

Looks nice though...

Best regards,

Herman

Dave, Herman,


I owned the same KLAAS knife Herman shows here but mine had plain griplates both sides with no insert for insignia at all, hilt was made of heavy steel that was nickle plated, it was a post war made knife.


Regards Mac 66.

Mac,

What makes you think that it was post war ?

Dave

Dave,


I was told by the german seller at the time i bought it was a post war made knife & had been in there family since the mid 50s, the lack of any insignia in the plain griplate & no RZM stamp also made me think post war, i sent photos to DD harris at that time when i was not a member of any forums & he also said it was post war, hope his helps.



Regards Mac 66.

Shouldn't it have "Germany" or "Made in Germany" somewhere on it if it were postwar? I know that I have seen that on B&A daggers and some other knives as well as toys. This comment also applies to the "DJ/BDM" knives.

All of the information on this thread so far has been out there for years. The well-meaning folks providing it know that and they also know that this thread, like all of the others, will be ignored by those who believe in these knives and/or sell them. We must challenge those who think that these knives are period and that they were worn by Deutsches Jungvolk to come forward with some proof. On a forum dedicated to blades I would have thought that the "DJ" "BDM", RPT and Olympic knives would have been put to bed one way or the other by now but clearly not. Odd. Let me recommend the threads mentioned earlier in the thread once again.

Dave,
there was no legal obligation to mark goods produced for the German market with the "Made in Germany" marking.
Best;
Hermann

I don't know about this blade mentioned, but these bowie styled blades were made during the period. Instead of post war "made", could the knife mentioned above be post war "assembled"?

... still undecided with this question, please keep in mind it is not my field, I'd thought to check the regulations which I have in my possession.

First add is an excerpt from the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP from 1937, where everything organizational was regulated.
The knife mentioned there is the one with the 'diamond' insignia on the grip.

Additionally I've added an official equipment list from the BDM. No knife was mentioned as being a part of the 'Bundestracht'.

This is not meant as a support for the pro or contras of these little daggers, my knowledge is to limited for this. My post should just add these regulations to the knowledge base here on this forum.

Nork, i agree, lets see some solid proof from the dealers who peddle these DJ knives, we could go on forever at this rate



@ flyingdutchman, good solid info again from you, Thanks



Regards Mac 66.

German manufactures weren't obligated to mark period, but if they registered their marks then why not. Germany has been putting "Made in Germany" on products for the past 126 years, mostly for export and not because of their law. If the EU gets it's way this might change.

Another DJ youth photo with HJ style knife.

Collectors,


Heres a thought running through my mind, what happens when all the collectors who have purchased these "DJ Knifes" in good faith thinking they were genuine TR produced for use by the DJ catch wind of all this controversy that they are Post War humped up knifes & say to themselves gees i,ve been duped & decide they all want there hard earned cash back !, anybody any thoughts ??



Regards Mac 66.

That could be interesting if it were true. Dates of manufacture are unknown at this point.

Dave,

Seems many collectors are now thinking that these knifes were never intended for use by DJ & that the used the hj knife with diamond insignia, so many collectors now are thinking that these DJ knifes were sold on false pretences ?


Would carbon dating the steel blade on a DJ give a rough date to when the blade was made, griplates or leather scabbard hanger maybe ?

I would say we are still wondering just what these knives were and when the were made.

Here is an interesting picture:

That is from Tom Johnson's Volume VIII, Page 149. The photos are pretty dark.

Here is the rest of the knife

Dave,

I,ve seen these photos somewhere before, maybe on another forum,

my thoughts on these plain scout type knifes with no insignia & the knifes with the hj insignia added is they were common knifes sold to the masses for the use of hunting, fishing, camping ect, ect then someone decided to call them DJ Knifes, BDM knifes ,ect,ect & hump them up & advertise them for sale to make big money, True or False ?

... we've tried this with 1800 German Naval daggers. One of the leading scientist in Germany and our co-author in the Near East sword book -Prof. Foell - informed us that there is a dating gap about a few 50yrs and the price would be very high, even if possible.
Best;
Hermann

[quote=Flyingdutchman]

... we've tried this with 1800 German Naval daggers. One of the leading scientist in Germany and our co-author in the Near East sword book -Prof. Foell - informed us that there is a dating gap about a few 50yrs and the price would be very high, even if possible.
Best;
Hermann




Hermann,


Thanks for this info, it was just a thought that came to my head on carbon dating, i hope the word has spread all the way through the collecting community now that these DJ knifes were never used or issued to the DJ members & that most people now recognise them as a humped up knife with added Hj diamond on the scabbard made to deceive collectors, i,ve also noticed you do not see very many of these DJ Knifes for sale on dealers websites now, wonder why !

if anyone here who believes in these DJ knifes has something positive to say about them being a TR period made knife for DJ use lets hear it ?




Regards Mac 66.

As it regards the dates of manufacture, fakers routinely “dated” modern copies of RZM daggers, knives (and some sword fakes). And it’s my belief that manufacturing has proceeded from possibly some leftover pre-zinc TR era ordinary camping knives. But much more likely they are all postwar for the serviceman and others who wanted something to take home when their tour of duty was over. And if you look at what is for sale as we speak, on some dealer websites they were or are still making them well into later modern times. And while I could post some more of the recent “discoveries” now for sale - the knife I posted earlier should I think suffice as proof of postwar manufacture. A complete postwar fake - as are the others in circulation with maybe a few years difference as to when they were made in batches.

I also have some of the information on the (true) Damascus “watered steel” types of blades and the analysis done there to try and figure out how and when they were made. But more appropriate IMO was a metallurgical analysis of some period political blades that was done a while back for a now extinct forum.

But let me “cut to the chase”: It was said once of a notorious California homicide. That if the perpetrator had been filmed committing the acts, he would have still been found not guilty because the jury was going to overlook any and all of the evidence. And by completely avoiding becoming involved in any of the discussions of these “small knives” - dealers will still find customers to buy them who “want to believe" that they are genuine TR artifacts. And that is not even taking taking into account all of the guys who’ve already been scammed (IMO) in the past - and now have an investment to protect. Fred

Indeed. The scammers won't talk and instead leave it up to the desperate owners of such pieces to fight their corner. Dealers quote other dealers in order to legitimise the continued sale of the "DJ" knife and desperate scorn is heaped on those who have the evidence to show that the knife is a humped up fantasy. A ridiculous state of affairs but the times are changing. Common sense and a reliance on history and primary literature are making a long overdue appearance. Some are already finding discussion platforms to be ever more scary places and that's great to see.

i Think that the DJ knife was sold at the various souvenir shops all around germany who sold nazi party sovenires. im i wrong? and its never been a regular dj knife, just Another nazi souvenire knife

I agree with Mac and everyone else that it's a humped up souvenir or "utility" hiking knife.
There is no period catalog/reference that shows the "smaller knife" as an issue/sale item for use by the DJ organization.
The paper bag in itself proves nothing.
It is the standard factory bag for an HJ (or DJ) knife, which were one-and-the-same model for both boy-groups.

But I don't really have a bone in the fight as I prefer the ones that read "Blut und Ehre!"

+foto

I have one with an emblem and initials

A long forgotten discussion.

Any more recent thoughts on these ? Any evidence or photos ?

(I keep hoping we'll see a picture of a BDM girl with a knife)

I can't add much to this particular discussion, but would like to add this picture from a 1937 F Herder catalouge, it shows that there were other knives specifically aimed at the market for a knife for young boys,( I presume these are DJ) it might go some way to understanding why not all DJ boys were wearing a HJ knife and chose another type.

A translation from the top of the page

"Every boy's desire and pride is a fine sheath knife. So it goes through thick and thin, through rain and sunshine. Everything is cut with a knife, bread, sausage, cheese, twigs and even roots have to be used to dig them up. What does the fine, bright blade look like after a short time! Rust will set in when rubbed, losing polish or leaving black spots. To remedy this evil, we have produced the stainless Constant sheath knife, which is thoroughly stainless and very sharp. Adults also appreciate this sharp knife for boat trips, camps, picnics, hunting and fishing."


Gary

Gary
Have you ever seen one of these knives? Very interesting. I have never run into one at any of the big shows.
It is entries like your here that make this a great site, very educational, and historical.
Thank you
Ed

Thanks Gary. Not seen that one before anywhere.

I suspect that most HJ (and fighting knives) were mostly used for "bread, sausage, cheese"

Ed/Dave

i've never seen anything like it before, I've never seen that exact mark on anything either, the remainder of the catalouge shows all their different kitchen knives with no other military interest. I thought it interesting that they specifically aim the knife for boys obviously aiming at the DJ market.

Gary

Gary that is cool! - So in their description I'm wondering if it is true stainless [non magnetic]?

Kitchen workers used to call us to take their old tables because they were true stainless [non magnetic] as some were called stainless but a magnet would stick, could rust and were worth very little.

Just for info. That mark is mentioned in Anthony Carters book. Best.

A few makers advertised these utility knifes as Jugend Sportsmesser.

I know not much to look at but it is what it is lol another Jugend Sportsmesser.

Very interesting additions a this old topic!

Hereunder the Klaas DJ (or small knife) that I believe to be period made.

Best regards,

Herman

Gary ,
Do you own this catalog or did someone send you these pictures???
Jim

I have this catalog also and have said on forums that they did target to sell other unofficial knives to the HJ .. Of course no-one cared..
There are more targeted to the HJ and very young boys and girls.
I would post pictures but it is always to big of a hassle here.

Herman,

Does the short Klass have an HJ diamond on the other side ? And what does the scabbard look like ?

Dave

NEWS FLASH

NO KIDDING
IT IS IN A CATALOG OF THE PERIOD..
Dave . original small klass is in metal scabbard no swaz anywhere..
Jim

Jim,

Thanks

As far as "IT IS IN A CATALOG OF THE PERIOD"., am I right in thinking that not all the items in catalogs appeared the same as the pictures ? Or, asked another way, did manufacturers sometimes enhance the products in the catalogs ?

Hi Dave,

That is correct: no HJ-insignia in grip nor on the scabbard of this small Klaas knife.

And yes, it is in the 1936 Klaas catalog!

Best regards,

Herman

Here is another one: a bid rough though...

Herman

Jim

Yes I have this catalouge, I've had it years, been looking for that particular knife since I bought the catalouge but have never found one, good to see you at the SOS.

Gary

Yes, Gary good show,
I believe we both bought some great items there..!!!!!
I have two of these catalogs (20+ years) and also have a few of these super rare knives in almost mint condition and have seen 4 over the last years.
I sent some pictures of the catalog and my knives to another collector not long ago and was just confused on the timing of your post..
As you know I'm very private about my collection and good to see you also have this catalog..
Yes trademark is in Carter book BUT many collectors think this is a postwar mark. Of course it is NOT..
Hermann
It is always easy to make a positive opinion when it is in a catalog (correct). I posted a picture from the catalog of the (small klass bowie) here or on another forum over 10+years ago now...
DAVE, The old attitude that (they took artistic privilege's in catalogs rarely is the case. Unless it is original art.

Guys, help me identify the original, please

Your HJ-knife is all original: it is motted RZM only, by Anton Wingen Jr made in 1936.

But you should create a new topic for it, because it does not belong here: this one is about the smaller DJ knifes.

Best regards,

Herman

There is No proof the small knife in that catalogue is a so called DJ knife, most likely a small utility purpose knife ?

The hj knife was made for the hj & DJ boys to use , it even tells you this on origional hj knife paper packets !

Some guys want to believe they are origional DJ knifes so they do not loose there money or make a profit.

JMO.


Mac 66

Hello Mac,

I agree that the official HJ-knife was the same, standard one for HJ and DJ boys.

But what is also certain (and proved) is that this Klaas smaller knife, which was looking very similar in design to the official HJ-knife, was made in 1936!

it is also obvious that this knife was specially made, to fit in a smaller child's hand, compared to the standard HJ-knife...

So who would have been the potential buyers, that Robert Klaas made this small, HJ look alike knife for, in your opinion?

That is correct: the smaller boys of the DJ!

So, is it not normal that these are called "DJ-knifes"?

To me this makes perfectly sense!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman i know what your saying but did the smaller Dj boys actually use these smaller knifes ? hard to prove imo, i would not call them a Dj knife as that is trying to legitimise them , i would like to see more proof to convince me but i get your point


Regards Mac 66

I'm with Mac on this. Those look like well made smaller utility knives and no doubt some found their way into the DJ, but to call them a "DJ Knife" is not warranted without more proof and pictures.

Dave