Hi
I have read a lot of diffrend oppinions on the sollid red HJ daimonds.
Are they late war productions or fake.

janjan, i believe they are genuine period daimonds & have owned several hj knifes fitted with solid red daimonds with the required movement & have owned a few hj cap solid red daimonds but theres always people who think there post war, have a read at this thread on the WAF.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490941&highlight=solid+red+daimonds

Hello Jan,

As stated so many times by now, these "full red" diamonds are not original to the HJ knifes:

I have seen hundreds of late HJ's, dated 1940, 1941 and 1942 (the last year of HJ knife production) by all of the makers. Never a knife that was in great condition had a "full red" diamond.

Unlike for other unusual features (like for instance the late period plastic hanger which is typical for Kaldenbach's, RZM M7/72 marked HJ knifes), not a single maker can be identified for having used the full red diamond: these fake inlaids end up on all kinds of knifes by different makers, most often on pieces that are already in bad shape.

Some owners of "full red" diamond HJ knifes may which to believe what ever they want... but here, at the HJ forum of GDC, we are strict when it comes to authentication: we need proof!
And believe me, when it comes to "full red" diamond HJ knifes, there is not any to be found!

Few people seem to know that many HJ knifes with a correct, "dotted red" diamond also have a replacement diamond. That is because a lot of the knifes got denazified after the war. So in the best case, the diamond of a HJ pin was used as a replacement. That is why sometimes the diamond is too large for the cutout: early knifes had a smaller diamond, which is touch to find in the "pin" version...

Many bad condition HJ knifes however ended up with the "full red" diamond for obvious reasons...

Best regards,

Herman

Hi Herman

You are writing about the RZM7/72
I se a many different MM on this RZM mark
Is this one original?

Herman, the only proof i have is in the Thread we were discussing on the WAF & you can see a Solid Red daimond in the flesh that Bob1 posted that imo is genuine, Raymond posted 2 nice hj knifes with Solid Reds that have the wiggle or required movement so there not glued in post war, there is always something that you yourself dont know about as an hj knife collector but i have an open mind when something thats not "textbook" & looks right has a very good chance of being genuine, maybe one day we will find more info on solid red daimonds or find a minty knife with a wiggley solid red daimond inserted nicely into the griplate

please dont forget there are reproduction solid reds as well but there quite easy to identify!!

Any other members on GD.com got any info or opinions to add on Solid Reds??


Regards Mac 66

Jan,

The makers mark is unusual for Kaldenbach so I would need to see the knife in hand to make a clear judgement.

Mac,

The wiggling of a diamond is absolute no guarantee of its originality to the knife: it is only a good indication... but that is when it is has the correct "dotted red" diamond of course.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman, its a good idea to keep an open mind when it comes to things we cant explain or prove until further evidence surfaces imo, take a close look at the solid red daimond BobI posted on the WAF thread & study it as its definetly a hj knife daimond made to fit into the griplate & NOT a cap pin.

Regards Mac 66

Mac,

Please don't restart the same discussion we already had on WAF over here.

A picture of a dirty "full red" diamond is really not any proof. How does a diamond becomes that way? Certainly not by sitting in the grip of a HJ knife...

Best regards,

Herman

Herman, i never said it was solid proof as i only asked you to study the daimond BobI posted.

I guess this discussion on solid reds is now over on here on your precious GDC hj forum so i,ll just pack up my bags & move on outta here & go have a look in the For Sale Section for a wee bargain maybe??

No wonder this place is like a ghost town these days, i.e> "negative attitudes"

Heres me thinking this was a discussion forum!!!

i hope someone out there has a minty condition hj knife with a nice solid red hj daimond insignia & posts it here sometime soon, so c,mon blade collectors lets see em

Bye Mac 66

Mac,

Even one mint HJ knife with a whiggling "full red" diamond would not convince me. Want to know why?

I visit now for over 10 years all the major European fairs: most in Belgium, France and Germany. I am talking about hundreds of fairs. One would be surprised how many HJ knifes are still surfacing here in Europe. At every fair I look at all of the offered HJ knifes: that makes thousants of HJ knifes in total.

When I started, the following HJ knife features where considered suspicious and most collectors would not buy knifes having them:

- plastic hangers
- erzats (pressed paper) hangers
- etched maker marks
- ink stamped maker marks
- aluminium rivets
- eaglehead shaped pommels
- ... many more

But as these features were showing again and again on freshly surfaced HJ's bearing always the same maker mark; I have been able to draw conclusions about these features being period and applied by typical producers and sometimes even in particular years of production.

The "full red" diamond is not a feature like that: these show up on all kinds of poor quality knifes from which the original diamond has been removed and/or for which the investment in a replacement original " dotted red" diamond is too high.

It is as simple as that.

I wish you lots of fun with collecting!

Best regards,

Herman

The "full red" diamond is not a feature like that: these show up on all kinds of poor quality knifes from which the original diamond has been removed and/or for which the investment in a replacement original " dotted red" diamond is too high.

Iff it is as simple as that.
Where are these daimonds offered I never saw full red daimonds offered as replaments

No, because those "full red"'s would not sell anymore in our days: now you can buy fake "dotted red" diamonds, also with the RZM mark on the back.

The fakers learned how to make the dots in the red emaille a long time ago... does that surprises anyone?

Fortunately, we can still recognise the fakes... but some (owners) claim those to be original as well...

Just hope they will not start a post about it in order to get them legitimised here...

Best regards,

Herman

I agree. Proven Fake diamonds.

Dave

Wheres the proof?

Read the above posts. If you accept what they are saying, buy all you can find !

Read the above posts. If you do not accept what they are saying, buy all you can find !

Herman, is the only person saying there fake & he has no solid proof either so i rest my case until they can be proven Fakes?, how do you get a solid red hj daimond insignia fitted into the griplate recess with the required movement without removing the origional rivits & griplates on so many origional period hj knifes?

Several techniques exist to make a replacement diamond fit perfectly and wiggle, also without breaking the grip rivets, check the "Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum"!

Herman

Herman, had a look on that restoration forum & cant see any info on this subject,

the fitting of the hj daimond into the griplate is a very near impossible task without damaging
the daimond prongs, if you know how it can be done please explain in detail ?

Regards Mac 66

Herman, Don't tell him. He is probably making them

Besides, he thinks they are OK, not going to change his mind anyway.

Dave

A respectabel dealer in the US has one for sale.

Jan

Jan, whos the dealer?

wouldnt mind a look at this peice

Hi

Ruptured duck Bill Shea
http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Edged/e485.htm

I think that the producer of the pins-midgliedabzeigen-also the diamond inlays have made for the HJ daggers.All RZM1/...
The RZM models,I,v seen different makers with ,,smooth,, or ,,full red,,inlays.
RZM M1/105
RZM M1/130
BR
Jozeph

Thanks Jan for the link

thats a good condition late war hj knife with plastic hanger
on the scabbard, i dont think Bill Shea would sell knifes with repro solid red daimonds so he must believe in them as well,


Jozeph, thank you for your info on the RZM code for the solid red hj daimonds

much appreciated

Hi Jozeph


do you have a picture of the back?

Looks like a typical "full-red-diamond-quality" HJ knife to me...

From the pictures I can see:
- broken hanger
- messed with back rivets
- sharpened blade
...

What are you guys waiting for?
Buy it before it's gone!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman , we dont want to buy the hj knife Bill Shea has on his site, we are discussing "Solid Red Daimonds",

Stop being a smarty pants it doesnt suit you sir,

Here is a few pix of a hj knife solid red daimond BobI
posted on the WAF, it has a lot of patina & nice gold fleck.

2.

3.

Here is a very nice solid red with the wiggle movement that Raymond posted on the WAF with unmessed with rivits.

Interestinger and interestinger !

The loose diamond the above pics make you think about this. As you do, note:

+ The loose pin looks like the real ones and has an aged look

+ The rivets don't look like an amateur installation

Also

- An aged look means nothing. There are not only old fakes, but I can duplicate that look by sticking a new pin in a flower pot on my back deck for a month or two.

- People putting together bad daggers are getting better at it. Some of them a lot better.

There is nothing new in your posts, Mac!

Same pictures as on WAF. Your arguments did not convince over there and certainly will not work on this forum, which is specialised in daggers.

- The "dirty" diamond is clearly artificilally aged, I said it in a more delicate way before you posted the pictures, but you seem to ignore things that are not stated blundly.

So I'll be more direct with you:

- The other one in the grip is even a bad fake with the blurry swastica. Plus you can clearly see how the original diamond has been removed: the cutout has pressure dammage from lifting the original diamond, no need to break the rivets! The original diamond was probably used in a better conditioned knife that needed the diamond upgrade and that is why you were able to buy the leftover with a fake "full red" diamond inserted so cheaply.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman, you have not convinced me that solid reds are early fakes, infact i think they could be either an later variant or prototype that was used near the end of hj knife production as you dont really see an abundance of knifes with the solid red daimonds, this change from fish scale or pimpeled daimonds to solid red could have been to match the rest of the hj insignia of solid red in the hj shirt sleeve patch ect but thats just my thoughts, now the only solid reds i believe in until some solid proof comes to light to say there fakes are the type in Raymonds hj knife & BobI type & the solid red with speckled affect through the red, all other types imo are post war copies.

your opinion that the griplate was damaged on Raymonds knife to remove the origional daimond doesnt wash with me as there is No evidence of this in the photo you have pointed out with an arrow that damage occured as the same lip appears to be part of the griplate & made during the manufacture process, you see this effect on other hj knifes, now can you answer me a question i asked you on a previous post, How do you fit a hj daimond into the griplate without damaging the rivits, griplate & daimond prongs??

i am keeping a positive open mind on these solid reds until they are 100% proved to be Fake as stated by you & Dave,

if anybody else reading this thread has any more solid red info or hj knifes with solid red daimonds please post.

Thanks Mac 66

I agree that burying an insignia (or blade) in the ground can fake-age it (chemically). On the other hand, I've had a guy (on a different site) type that all my daggers were fakes when I know that none of them were. It doesn't sound like this guy is doing it on purpose to me.

I would go with the group opinion. Post it on other sites too of course, but in my experience, this one has given me more useful information. Even if the diamond insignia is fake, it sounds like no one is saying the rest is fake, so you could buy a real HJ diamond easily from several places and re-set it yourself.

Let's lighten things up with a REAL fake (that I've posted once before a few months ago)...

Heres another 3 solid red daimonds that are 100% Fake & this type have No prongs on the back & found to be glued into the griplate so no wiggle here guys

HI

THIS ONE JUST CAME IN
IT LOOKS LIKE THE RED IS GLAS ANS A VERY FINE DOTTING IS IN THE RED

jan, this is the solid red i believe to be genuine until they are proven Fake?

this type of solid red is a very good quality made daimond like the pimpeled version imo,

Can you post photos of the hj knife & scabbard please?

Thanks Mac 66.

Here some pictures of the rest of the dagger

sorry a wrong picture is posted
here some other pictures

jan, looks a good conditioned late hj knife with plastic hanger, also the rivits look unmessed with imo,

Does the daimond have any wiggle or slight movement?
looks like the daimond has been in there since production
with a tight fit?

Regards Mac 66.

First, I'm not taking sides - and I'm not an HJ specialist, nor do I claim any special expertise. But off and on I've been tracking this topic for a while now, and here are some pictures I saw back in 2008 (?) which I thought were interesting. With the bottom one being a broken "solid red diamond" - but is it solid? Because in the image I see what looks to me like pebbling, but the "pebbles" look like they are very small diameter pebbles. With the other three being an HJ knife with a broken grip. But in looking at the pictures I think that it got broken using it as a hammer, not trying to pry out the diamond. I also don't see any glue. But does it wiggle - who knows? To me it seems to be going to a lot of trouble to swap out a diamond to gain what kind of advantage with a damaged knife that has been both used and abused? FP

FP, thanks for your pix we also see many hj knifes with the accepted pebbled, fishscale pattern daimonds in this broken condition so the idea that herman posted rough conditioned hj knifes with solid reds is not a case for the solid reds being early fakes to restore a broken hj knife imo.

Regards Mac 66.

Great hearing the different view points on this subject.
I'm sure truisms will never change or alter whats accepted by the majority but there are interesting points being thrown out here for discussion.

Guys,

Do you really think that the obvious, recent fakes will make the old fakes become original?

Jan,

The HJ you post now, is the same one you started the topic with: it is not a new one.
You asked my advice about that knife before you bought it and I have told you that the hanger is good and scarse, but that the diamond is a fake. And now you hope to get that fake diamond approved here on the forum? Why do you think you got it from a dealar at that very low price?

Mac,

I rarely say this: but you seem a hopeless case... I repeat this for the very last time:

- Only bad conditioned knifes have the "full red" diamond because their original diamonds have been taken to upgrade superior knifes, none, out of thousands of knifes, are in superior condition. Are you truly not understanding that argument?

- I don't have to prove that the "full red" diamonds are fake, you have to prove that they are original. Otherwise, next I will have to prove that a green diamond is a fake: so please, do not turn things around!

- If you want to know how a wiggling fake diamond gets installed into a knife, without breaking the rivets: just remove one of your full reds and you will find out... or even better: get them x-rayed!

I am seriously considering to move this topic to the beginners forum or even to the humor section.

And I mean this!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,what is this?
A diamond on the site from Lakesitetrader.

Herman, you never answered my question but said there were several ways to insert a daimond into the griplate without breaking the griplates or rivits, do you think i would be stupid enough to pry out a daimond on one of my hjs!!!

i have tried to insert a daimond into an old hj knife as an experiment a few years back with an origional fishscale/pimpeled daimond & it is impossible without destroying the 2 prongs!!!

i personally at the moment do not own a hj knife with a solid red daimond but have owned several in the past & all had good movement with no damage to the rivits ect so there must be some good about that fact,

you say people take a bad conditioned hj knife & take the nice daimond out of the griplate for a better conditioned knife?, this to me is total madness & something you made up in your head to shut us guys up just because you dont believe in solid reds, imo you find a lot more bad conditioned knifes with the accepted daimonds more than you find the solid reds,

if you dont want to add anymore of your opinions to this thread thats fine by me but please listen to other peoples ideas & opinions before condeming the good old solid reds

You call me a hopeless case for only trying to find out if solid reds are genuine or fake

what kind of person are you to judge me?, do you think you are far superior to us little
guys because you are a Moderator ?

To me you can be arrogant & very negative when its suits you sir
Regards Mac 66.

Mac,
Herman is a very specialized guy on the field of HJ daggers.
I have a very high regard for him.
Together we must share the knowledge,different ideas assist can.
Much information can help in this!
Regards
Jozeph.

Jozeph, i know herman has knowledge & is specialized in hj knifes
but it seems what herman says has to be true & thats it? end off story?, why even bother discussing the solid red daimonds on here as its cut dead from the start,

This is a discussion Forum in its final death throws so lets keep this place alive!!!

Regards Mac 66.

Yes herman it is the same dagger but i got the dagger today as you can see the first picture is out of the sales catalogue of Thomas Huss
I don`t want a prove on nothing a just started this topic because i see more of these daggers and when it is a fake so be it i like the dagger.
I think it is original and period made

janjan,
are the gripplates bacelite (fenol) or plastic?
BR
Jozeph

Please Mac and Herman don`t get personal we are just fellow collectors

Jozeph

The griplates smel like bacelite.

If a trader cheap offers,then I doubt a dagger.

So Jozeph you ownly trust a dagger when you pay top prices
I have seen daggers on dealer sites for top prices an the were
also fake
I`m just a lukky man

the bacelite gripplates are original.
I have open a ,,full red,, diamond......

foto

Hi Jozeph, can you show larger clear photos of the daimond?

my guess is this type of solid red is what i consider to be the fake bad quality type as shown in my earlier post.

Regards Mac 66

this is what I have

This is the dagger,with plastic hangers.
The diamond was destroyed with a hammer,i,ts for restauration.

foto

Jozeph, i cant be sure of the daimond with these bad photos but the hj knife & scabbard looks to be genuine.

C,mon guys lets see more hj knifes with the solid red daimond

Jozeph

is it possible to post better pictures closer to the diamond?

sorry,but has already been replaced.

Guys

I'm pretty sure that the members pins differ from the dagger pins, are these also considered to be fake?

wha do you mean member pis are also made i solid red?

I meant are the solid red membership pins also considered fakes?

Yes jan, here is some hj members pins with solid red,

many collectors do not have a problem with these solid red members pins


Regards Mac 66.

How about this one?

When they were used as membership pin the could be used on a HJ knive
or where these pins also post war?

Jan, a lot of hj collectors consider them genuine period member pins, so far nobody has brought up any evidence to say they are post war & the same goes for the solid red hj insignia we see fitted in hj knifes.


Regards Mac 66.

A few threads for you to look at that were posted on here a while back

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=168246#Post168246


http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=94951&page=1




Regards Mac 66.

Here is one HJ that the collectors of "exotic" diamonds will like:

http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/catalogue/weapons/DAGGERS/hjdjbootgravity/26161.htm

Herman, these Green daimonds are definetly Fake!!


Solid/Speckled Reds Have a Much Better Chance To Be Origional imo

I,m sure there are advanced TR blade collectors on here that will agree!!



Regards Mac 66.

Hallo friends, the opaque diamonds talked about by mac66 are authentic acording to this thread here- http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f23/rzm-m1-42-hitler-youth-membership-badge-okay-6292/

Looks like that proof for them being period is going to be available so I would not be so quick to write these diamonds off yet

Hi Nork,

thanks for your helpful input!!

Much Appreciated,


Regards Mac 66.

Nork,

As said before: badges is a different story, unlike daggers they were produced until 1945!

But even here, seasoned collectors are avoiding these full reds: they are sold to newbies...

Concerning the HJ daggers (made until 1942!), as said before: you only find poor conditioned and fabricated HJ's that bear a full red diamond.

A handful of guys are desperately trying to proof that they are correct on HJ's... for how many years now?

But they have not been able to show a single unquestionable HJ knife with full red diamond...

And now I read everywhere that "Proof is coming..." so I suppose that they are fabricating one... or they managed to get one pictured in a reference book... to bad for the book in that case...

But to be honest, this is a very sad story... after 70 years of rejection by the collecting community, a few -not very senior- collectors want to get this full red rubbish to be legitimized and seem to convince the newbies, who have bought such a piece with a bad diamond... everything for the profit!

Where will it end?

Did you know that one big name dealer already sells green diamond HJ's for originals to the newbies?

With full warranty of course!



Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Did you not read the post from hj research forum ?
opaque enamel has been around as early as 1936 so why are you saying they cant be fitted into hj knifes when they were making them during & after the time period hj knifes were produced,


Quote Metallwarenfabrik
I dont have any problems with it. This maker, and others from the same area, around the same time (circa 1936-8) are known to have used Opaque enamel on their smaller Official party items. (obviously done by an Emaillierfabrik/anstalt en mass) I have seen these described as "..with the very rare tomato red enamel." or "..a scare Opaque version." Both being of course utter rubbish, Opaque enamel can be found on many different small official party items made by a multitude of makers from both Germany, Austria and Sudentenland. Nothing rare or scarce about the Opaque enamel, and nothing out of the ordinary with this badge.


Regards Mac 66.

Ok,let me say this
Over the years,i have seen many HJ with solid diamonds at the shows,and many knives look correct to me,with any damage to the grip or rivets.
I talked about this with my friend DD Harris and he also believe that they are period and i think he is one of the most experienced HJ guy around.


Regards
Stingray

Thanks Stingray,


This is the info i like to hear from a well experienced hj knife collector like yourself & DD Harris,

there is also a few very well experienced guys i have spoke to over the years that have no problems with hj knifes with opaque enamel insignia that dont post on forums because there are people who say items are bad but have no proof to back up there opinions when infact they are genuine which is bad for collecting community & the hobby in general.



Regards Mac 66.

That surprises me, Stingray

And which is the maker(s) of HJ's that used these full red diamands, in your opinion?

I know that DD Harris is selling them, he also sells the "very rare & ugly" diamond, as he calls it. Have you ever seen one?

Personaly, I have never bought from DD Harris: the quality he offers is just not what I expect. And when he has a nice HJ in his offer... his price tends to refect it... a bid too much... But that is just my opinion of course.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,why you surprised?
I'm not only one,who believe they are real,i just say my opinion.
I have seen them always on late war,after 1938 pieces and always without motto.
Logically,if they are fakes,why we don't see them on transitional 1837,1938 knives,which they have same size of the diamond.
IMO they used them after 1939.
And I think that they don't care,back then, if they install full red diamond or regular.

Please,don't talk about someone who is not involved in this discussion.I know lot of dealers,who sell more expensive HJs in same condition.

Regards
Stingray

Stingray,

So in your opinion all the makers of HJ-knifes installed now and then a full red diamond on their knifes produced after 1939?

You brought up DD Harris, not me! so I believe I can reply and share my experiences here.

Best regards,

Herman

Stingray, Herman

I have came across various RZM marked only hj knifes with opaque red daimond insignia so we are taking from 1938 to 1942 period, also keep in mind opaque red enamel has been used in TR badges & pins from 1936 to 1945 by numerous badge makers, so if they were producing hj members pins & hat pins in opaque red enamel they were also producing opaque red hj daimond insignia for fitment into hj knifes, another thing i have noticed that we do not see a lot of hj knifes around with opaque red insignia so not too easy to find, a nice variant to add to your hj knife collection imo.


Regards Mac 66.

Hey Herman
I didn't say that all makers used them.
To me,that only some factories used them.
My question is,did you ever seen transitional 1937-1938 knives with solid red diamond?

Regards
Stingray

Heres a very good untouched/uncleaned hj knife with solid red opaque daimond with good movement that i bought from DD Harris which he purchased from a WW2 US vets son along with german pistol that he brought back from germany, No Damage to the griplates or rivets, just the way it left the Factory,

RZM M7/36 E&F Hörster, Solingen.


Regards Mac 66.

2.

3.

And this is how your very late E&F Hörster HJ-knife looked when it left the factory.

Hope you see the differences and why they are there...

No further comments.

Regards,

Herman

Herman,

Thats the way your 2 M7/36 E&F Hörster hj knifes left the factory with the clear dotted hj insignia,

My E&F Hörster left the factory with the Solid Red Opaque Enamel daimond hj insignia which imo is a genuine period produced daimond & made by the makers of hj members pins & hat pins, evidence will be out in the near future in the form of a book which states these opaque enamel pins/badges were made from 1936 - 1938 so the idea of a 44-45 late war produced solid red daimond is not true as was thought previously.




Regards Mac 66.

Well, we all know about the fakes and errors which are -unfortunately- filling up many reference books...
But what do you want: the business must continue... at all costs! Some people even put their good reputation at stake...

But here are some facts, free of charge :

More than 50 % of all the surviving HJ-knifes had their original diamond lost or broken after the war:

- due to denazification, which was very easy to do on HJ's (compared to SA, SS and all types of army daggers)

- but also because these knifes were very popular for all kinds of praktical usage after the war, so the swast had to be removed!

Due to this shortage of original diamonds, all bad quality knifes lost their original diamond due to "canabalisation" for the restauration of the superior blades, which became collector items.

That is why you find so many fake diamonds or diamonds from HJ-badges in the low end knifes, like the one shown above.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Same old story with you nothing new to me this info,


you just cant face the facts that the Opaque Daimond is a genuine pin fitted into hj knifes during production at the factory during the period but that will be your opinion till you drop dead, i have put up some good evidence on this forum that they are genuine but you have not proved them to be fake imo,



Regards Mac 66.

Mac,

This is getting funny!

Now it s not only full red, but also "opaque" diamonds which are good in HJ knifes? How about green and blue?

And where do all these "original" diamonds -used to restore bad quality knifes with a missing or broken diamond- are coming from in your opinion?

One good advice: get your latest HJ knife x-rayed and maybe... you might finaly see the light!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

I see nothing funny about this subject!!!


Opaque Red or commonly known as "Solid Red"

Green & Blue are bogus!! as you know so quit your wise cracks,

Solid Red/Opaque hj daimonds ae coming from the same factories as clear pimpled version hj daimonds

i do not need to get my knife x-rayed as i know its a good period made peice,


Mac 66.

I find your argumentation rather weak, this time, Mac...

You must have "overlooked" the following question:

And where do all these "original" diamonds -used to restore bad quality knifes with a missing or broken diamond- are coming from in your opinion?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman


if they used a genuine hj daimond to repair there knife the daimond would have came from Germany during the period imo

where else do you think they came from ?

I do a lot of research on HJ's, Mac, I keep statistics, from every show I attend to, for many, many years now...

That is how I manage to draw conclusions on features that are typical for certain producers. For instance, the late Hörsters, like shown here, they have unique rivets with very small heads, unlike any other maker! Yours has them to! Many collectors still find them suspicious... but they are 100% OK. Unlike the diamond on your Hörster... it is really not original to the knife... sorry to bring that bad news.

About the 50%:
You would be surprised how many HJ knifes -even minty ones- are surfacing with a missing or damaged diamond... I count them on every show!

On top of that, I add the ones which have an replacement diamond -I do x-ray the knifes ! Lots of original (dagger diamond) replacements! But also many diamonds which were originaly HJ-pins are mounted into quality HJ-knifes!

Now even if the % of lost, original diamonds was much less than the over 50% I observed so far, than there would still be not enough original diamonds (from daggers!) to repair the low end HJ-knifes.
That is why fakes and ex-badges (possibly also full reds...) are used on the crappy HJ's.

Now, is that so difficult to follow and understand?

That was all for today, from my side anyway...

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

you have your own private opinion & i have mine so we will just leave it at that for the time being, i know my knife with solid red is a good period produced peice,i know for a fact that several old time dagger collectors would agree that hj knifes with the period produced solid red daimonds are genuine & have bought them straight from vets in similar condition to mine,, i,m actually fed up arguing with you on this subject.

A few threads from the past on GDC if you havent read them already,

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=168246#Post168246

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=94951&page=1


Mac 66.

all the wishing...Believing...hoping in the world will not make it real

Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

Sepp,

I do not need to wish anything,

i suppose you have some evidence to support your opinion ?

So if its not a textbook example they are written off as post war, repro ect ?

i,ve asked a lot of questions on this forum & never recieved a straight answer from any you long time dagger & knife collectors, nor have any of you supported your claims that the solid red or opaque daimonds are fake & were never applied into hj knifes.


hj knifes with the solid red hj insignia are very few & far between so i guess this makes collectors a bit confused & wary of them & its very easy just to say there fake or post war when in fact there most likely a scarce variant to find & very likely was only produced for a short period during the early 40s when thay were producing RZM marked only blades with no motto near to the end of hj knife production in 42 imo.

Mac 66.

Mac,

What you are trying to tell the collector community is the following:

At the Hörster factory, now and then a HJ knife assembler said to himself: "This HJ-knife is gonna have a hard time during its lifetime, so I will put in a full red diamond on this one !"

This way, the assembler was predicting that the knife was going to end up as a beater or low end knife for collecting purposes...

Now, the same was happening at many other Solingen blade factories: now end then a full red diamond was mounted, predicting that this particular knife would be abused or damaged...

And this way of producing started as soon as 1936, you seem to believe?

This is just rediculous, Mac!


Or maybe, for you, it does not matter if the diamond is original to the HJ-knife?

If there is a chance that the diamond is a replacement -coming from a period badge- do you consider the HJ-knife to be 100% authentic?

You seem to accept that -due to the shortage of original knife diamonds- badges are used to upgrade crappy knifes?

In that case we have a completely different story!

And I propose to stop this discussion immediately.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


You think what you like, i have my own opinion on solid reds,

your past statements have no evidence to suggest solid reds are fake so rather than carry on this discussion here on GDC i will leave it at that & not bother youes collectors any more.


Another thing Herman, PLEASE DO NOT THREATEN ME BY PM EVER AGAIN TO CANCEL MY ACCOUNT ON GDC!!


Mac 66.

Our Mac ran out of real arguments...

So he trying to attack the person ...

Sad ending of the "full red" dream...

Too bad some "innocent" collectors got caught up and inspired by this illusion.


And Mac,

Any person who is not following the rules risks to get is account canceled at GDC, not just you!

And for the record: it was not on this topic that you went over the line with your posts and got my warning: it was some weeks ago... but that you forgot to mention here... not too honest of you in my opinion!

It was this one and you got a public warning (in the topic) first!

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=272224&page=2

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Grow up, this is not over until proven otherwise & you are not the person to discuss this subject with anymore as you have made that very clear by your attitude & foolish remarks, an open mind is what you need when it comes to the solid red daimonds, you do not believe them to be genuine & never will so rather than waste anymore of my time & effort on this forum i,m finished here on this subject, it can go back to a Ghost town forum for all i care, what a bloody place to discuss anything, sad indeed.


Mac 66.

Mac,

You attack my person and seem to be unable to answer my simple questions, so the discussion is over.

I repeat them once more:

Or maybe, for you, it does not matter if the diamond is original to the HJ-knife?

If there is a chance that the diamond is a replacement -coming from a period badge- do you consider the HJ-knife to be 100% authentic?

You seem to accept that -due to the shortage of original knife diamonds- badges are used to upgrade crappy knifes?

Best regards,

Herman

My knife is NOT CRAPPY & i believe it has the origional solid red daimond insignia it was fitted with at the factory during the period, not a badge converted to fit as it has the required movement with no damage to the rivets or the griplates, how many times do i need to repeat myself to you, i do not accept that badges as you say are fitted to crappy knifes so stop trying to put your words in my mouth, Yes 100% Authentic imo.

END OFF.

OK Mac,

That is only a partial answer, but anyone with some brains, who reads the topic, will now be able to conclude that the "full red diamond case" is as hollow as an empty barrell.
That is enough for me for now.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


I will be back with more evidence in the near future that will rock your negative attitude towards solid red enamel daimonds, These were a period produced hj pin that came in the form of a members pin, hat/cap pin & hj knife insignia, we also see solid red enamel in NASDAP Party pins ect, Various factorys produced them during the TR period.

Until then,




Mac 66.

Hi Guys,

My hj knife with solid red/opaque daimond insignia arrived today & i,m very pleased with the overall condition, i cannot see any tampering damage whatsoever to the rivets or griplates not even a hairline crack on the griplates, daimond insignia has the required movement, i.e springy up & down with side to side movement with that click sound when tapped with my finger just like some of my other hj knifes daimond insignia, the rest of the knife has some aged patina with some greying on the blade that i will gently clean way to preserve the blade from any further decay, the cloth on scabbard runners are still bright white which i was very happy to see, all i can say now is that i believe 100% solid red enamel hj daimond insignia was definetly used during the TR production period but not on the same scale as we see the commonly used clear pimpled hj daimonds therefore imo the solid red/opaque enamel hj daimond is a scarcer type to find on hj knifes.

There will be a book out next year summertime by Jo Rivett that explains everything we want to know about TR badges & pins covering in great detail about the solid red/opaque hj daimonds ect that will answer questions in a more positive light with good solid evidence.

http://s276159374.e-shop.info/shop/p...idG&shop_param


This is all i have to say on this subject for now.




Regards Mac 66.

Are we still talking about that lower quality Hörster?

Again, I have to protect the newer and unexperienced collectors, by adding the following observations:

- What you have is not -as you describe -a rare variant of the HJ-knife, but actually a common late Hörster RZM piece.

- The knife and scabbard are original but in relatively poor condition because they show a lot of rust and wear. Except for the diamond which is clearly a replacement.

- The rust spots look quite fresh, so it could be that someone tried to age the complete knife after replacing the diamond. We see that process quite often applied on knifes which are already of lower quality: some extra rust spots do no harm anymore and make the piece look more authentic!

Best regards,

Herman

Whatever Herman,

i,m finished on this GDC forum & will not be posting here ever again.


Goodbye Mac 66.

He will be back...

Sepp

Sepp.

Yes i,m back just to clear a few things up first as i have put a lot of my time & effort into this thread on solid reds,

@ Herman,i never said my hj knife was a rare variant,

Here are my exact words below,

all i can say now is that i believe 100% solid red enamel hj daimond insignia was definetly used during the TR production period but not on the same scale as we see the commonly used clear pimpled hj daimonds therefore imo the solid red/opaque enamel hj daimond is a scarcer type to find on hj knifes.

The Daimond is NOT a REPLACEMENT on my hj knife!!

Something else for Herman to think about:

It does not make sense for a faker to manufacture a diamond with all the correct attributes including the correct size, thickness, and length of pins, and then do something completely different by leaving out the scaled base of the diamond & change the colour of the enamel from clear red to solid red! I also think that the fake solids we see today were replicated after seeing original solid examples of the type we are discussing.


@ Herman,I will not stand to be interrogated in this way by you on this GDC forum & WAF forum where i offer my opinion on this subject with good hard evidence, you try to make people out as fools with your bad attitude therefore i will not be contributing anymore of my time & energy into this forum.


Collectors can make up there own minds if the choose to Accept solid red daimonds fitted into hj knifes are genuine or not as most are not sheep & have good common sense with an open mind.



Now i,m gone but this subject will continue over on WAF & hj Research forum.



Take it easy,



Regards Mac 66.

Years ago when I first started to go to the shows in Europe and then here, I would advise dealers when they had what was a known reproduction or fake. I was always amazed at the voracity of their responses and their declarations that it was original. I soon stopped trying to keep the shows "clean" and just shook my head at some of the items offered.

The problem we face today is the ease of book publishing. Anyone can put out a book as an expert and they are. We had the old Atwood publications and others. We now have books from Russia listing all the known reproductions as originals or even other countries daggers. And, people will continue to use these to justify their own bad buying decisions and to pass on the fraud to other people. At the same time, they always seem to try and minimize the colloective wisdom of the hobby with personal insults.

My hats off to you Herman, for seeing this through to the end.

But, I suspect we have not heard the last from Mac.

Jim, You are probably right ..... but I could assist in that respect

give up mac,theres nobody more blind than somebody who doesnt want to see (and their disciples), and by the looks of the thread the big boys are being called in to shut you up now

That is all we need, another newby who thinks he knows everything.

When I was in Poland after the fall of the wall. I saw an unbelievable number of Nazi daggers and knives and the one uniform point on all of them was that they were de nazified. It is a well known fact that if you were in the east block, and you had any item with a nazi symbol, you went to jail, serious jail time because Sgtalin was totally paranoid. So all Nazi daggers were denazified in the entire soviet union. Guess what, that was most of the third reich daggers expecially the youth daggers as Hitler sent the Hitler youth to fight. They were all denazified. Where are they now. They have all been restored with phoney insignia as apropriate. they all look to be in the same condition as the poor examples with the solid red we see here.

Apparently, they all went to England and Scotland, where they have been proclainmed to be correct.

That is ok with me. But the fact is they are all suspect and lower grade collectables and collectors need to know they are questionable.

No matter how many friends of Mac come on here to try and insult the legitimate collectors.

By the way, you wouldn't happen to have one of those Ivory gripped presentation daggers would you. I am certain we can still find someone to claim they are original.

stu a. Some people, especially foreigners, do not understand the American's tollerance for free speech. they think they can come on here and say whatever they want and insult whoever they want or make wild accusations. But the fact is, free speech requires responsibility. If a person comes on here and acts iresponsibly, his speech is not protected here. It is irresponsible and usually quite rude.

So, if you want to play here, that is fine. Play nice.

hi jim

im not a newbie been collecting for many a year i just dont post on here as much as other forums as i always thought of this as a dagger only place and im more of a badges person, but when it does come to daggers this has always been the place to go ,but the way this thread is going is disappointing as there seems to be no room for discussion ,its fake and thats it and no proof will ever be good enough i just think we all need to be more open minded to other possibilities.
there are new facts coming out all the time, and items that where thought of as fake yrs ago are now, thanks to new info thought of as good ,and vice versa thats whats great about these forums the ability to talk to people who share an interest and to help sort fact from fiction ,but there seems to be no interest in listening to both sides of the story or in listing any proof or facts to back up claims, nobody wants to see fakes made to look genuine theres enough fakes out there already taking good money out of collectors pockets, but that doesnt mean everything that isnt the norm is automatically fake, we have to be able to judge on facts and listen to both sides with an open mind

stu, I certainly will not argue with or take exception to your above post. The problem is that from my reading, No new "hard" evidence or proof has been offered up by Mac, or anyone else here. If there is something new on this particular issue, then present it here. But not just some anecdotal evidence or story some seller gives. I do not believe this matter can be proved either way. Not with hard evidence that will sway people on either side of the issue. So, people will continue the argument which is pointless. The prevailing wind on this forum is that the solid red is questionable. It is fine to make other argument but as adults.

I am just looking for a little civility. After all, I hang out here and actually enjoy reading the posts.

stu and Jim,

Your observations are correct and I am not talking about this topic. You have to have a flexible mind in this hobby. Probably in other hobbies based on collecting older items as well.

We are relatively fortunate in that we have multiple examples to consider. With many daggers, thousands of examples. With HJ, probably the most of any dagger/knife ... excepting maybe bayos.

Some time ago I started this topic aboud the sollid red HJ dagger because I want to buy one.
I did not know it becomes so emotionaly discusion.
Beside I bought the dagger with the sollid red i`m happy with the dagger.
It is again a dagger with the plastic hanger and the daimond looks iff it is mounted in the propper way.
Hermann is still not comming with a clear evidance these daimonds are fake it is ownly his feeling.

Perhaps JanJan, but your belief the other way is also only a feeling. You have offered no clear proof they are original period inserts.

A good example would be the army daggers marked Weirsburg, Berlin. Can anyone prove they are not period. Is there some factory invoice that has been presented that proves to everyone in the world they are produced after the war. And no doubt there are people who believe they are original. But the consensus is they are not.

So, this is like all markets. Many people believe the sold diamond is not correct and will not pay for the knife. You, on the other hand get the benefit of a reduced price because demand is down. You can then make the argument that you are the only intelligent person because you are buying it, it is original, and you got a reduced price.

It just does not make it true.

So, Jan Jan. Perhaps you can answer my question. What happened to the thousands of Hitler Youth knives that we denazified in the east block?

I don`t say the sollid red is original I can`t prove but there isn`t any prove they are fake so let us close this discussion.
Iff there is ever a real prove it is fake I`ll dump the dagger.

Janjan,

It is the same as with the DJ knifes, the "Nurnberg" knifes,the "Olympia" knifes, ... and now also the full red diamond HJ knifes.

All are highly questionable... but some people continue to believe in them and they are daily sold for top dollar prices!

A forum like this one has the objective to warn collectors and I believe we did more than our job in that context.

And we will continue to do so in the future!

Best regards,

Herman

I have been following this thread here and on WAF with a lot of interest.

Ultimately, it boils down to belief. If one believes in the solid red diamonds or in the Nurnberg DJ knife, then one will defend it, if one doesn't believe, then one won't.

Like any belief, it cannot be disproved.

The proof will come the day that you try to sell one of these and have to make up all kinds of reasons why anomalies are ok.

It's no use arguing about it at this point, one either will buy the thing or one won't.

John

John, I get your point which is well taken - but would respectfully disagree to the extent that with discussions sometimes new information, pictures etc. are presented that tends to tip the scale one way or another.

As they say “I don’t have a dog in this fight” - and I don’t like fakes. With included on my personal list: The “embellished” aluminum hilted small knives with the added on scabbard emblems, etchings, and multiple kinds of grips (with and without emblems). But I think that is a topic unto itself.

So perhaps all of the opaque red diamond HJ-DJ knives are postwar modified - who knows? The only period document that I know of simply lists an HJ emblem giving a specific size. With what I am looking for is: 1) Some additional kind of RZM documentation specifying how the grip emblems were to be manufactured. 2) Or some kind of proof that the HJ emblems were not made with an opaque red enamel during the time of the Third Reich.

Which is where I’m having a problem. Because there are some items like the RZM marked Party pins, and other items with an opaque red enamel that seem to be well accepted as period by the guys that specialize in them. The transparent red enamel Party pins that I think have a ‘reeded’ or different design underneath the enamel instead of the ‘dots’ (or pimples/scales as I’ve seen then described). And the woven fabric HJ cap/sleeve/sports badges that all seem to be a solid red with no design woven into the fabric. So are the ‘dots’ required to be a part of the HJ-DJ knife grip emblem? Or was it something that some of the badge/emblem makers did on their own?

We've also seen some topics that are argued back and forth for years before some kind of reasonable conclusion can be reached. For me personally, that day is not today with the level of proof that I’ve seen so far. Best regards to all, Fred

Thank to you all for many reply on this topic.
I ditn`t expect so many collectors are intrested in thos topic
hanks to Fred Prinz he is he one who learned us a lesson "it boils down to belief"

Hi Jan,

i,m back just to say enjoy your hj knife with the solid red hj daimond insignia

There is nothing wrong with the solid red enamel hj pins imo

Proof will be forthcoming summer 2013 that they were period produced & made to fit hj knifes with the 2 metal tangs to fit into the griplates just like the daimond BobI has showed on WAF & added to previous posts on this thread which is a genuine TR produced daimond imo,

i would not compare solid red enamel pins to DJ knifes!!

Each to his own opinion,



Regards Mac 66.

It is very rare in the world. Reason while is there was only one red diamond offered, an .80ct fancy red oval-cut. Red diamond normally uses one milllion carats of rough to yield a one-carat pink diamond.

"It is very rare in the world. Reason while is there was only one red diamond offered, an .80ct fancy red oval-cut. Red diamond normally uses one milllion carats of rough to yield a one-carat pink diamond."

I am so confused right now...

Johnny,

You're OK. Owen is having difficulty with something.

Dave

Paul Seilheimer.
Recovered diamond:
RZM-M1/13 L. Christian Lauer/Nurmberg.

Sam 71

Are you saying you removed the solid red daimond insignia from this early hj knife ?

interesting anyway, Thanks.



Regards Mac 66.

Hello, Mac 66,
I do not think that this is really interesting. If you look at the split pins, you see that they are soldered quite roughly. In my opinion, here is an altered HJ membership badge with a dubious genuineness.
Regards Oleg.

Hi Oleg,

For me this is not an altered hj badge, i do not see any roughly soldered split pins either, this is imo a genuine hj emblem for fitment into the griplate recess for an hj knife, maybe its not interesting to you but it is to me.



Regards Mac 66.

If the diamond shown here was originally a dagger grip diamond, then it never would show the wear that we see here: three of the corners are worn off! That can never happen in a dagger grip!

But the picture of the reverse makes it all clear: the prongs have been artificially attached to what was -in the best case- a badge diamond!

So what really happened here?

In order to fit this too big, full red diamond into an original early knife: the grip plate was damaged by making the diamond cutout bigger and 3 of the corners of the diamond were filed off.

A nice early HJ knife was spoiled by a full red replacement diamond!

I have indicated again the "worn off" corners of this obviously bad diamond.

This case clearly shows how a different lighting with photographs is used to deceive collectors: trying to turn bad stuff into good!

Concerning Mac, I can only conclude the following:

- or he has no feeling at all with this stuff and he really believes in the nonsense that he is posting on all the different fora...

- or he knows very well and he has bad intentions, trying to deceive collectors with his full red rubbish...

Best regards,

Victorman

Herman,


No bad intentions ment here, i do not believe the daimond is orgional to this early hj knife shown, i can see clearly that the diamond has been filed to fit the griplate recess but do not believe the daimond is an altered hj badge, looks very much like dirt/corrosion on the rear, the 2 tangs are the type for fitment into the griplate imo, i am only interested in the daimond shown & i,m not trying to decieve anyone on this forum or any other forum, why would i want to decieve collectors herman ?, all i really want to do is get to the bottom of the solid red case which until now has never been proven as a Fake daimond with solid proof, simple as that



Regards Mac 66.

The guy who posted this here -his only post, by the way!- wanted to make us believe that he got this diamond out of the early HJ.

But anyone with some experience and brains can see that the diamond is a replacement. So these prongs are most certainly added. How could they even have been preserved when the diamond was crushed into the too small cutout of an early HJ?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

More info from Sam_71 would be needed here to confirm how he recovered the daimond imo.



Mac 66.

Let me repeat this one more time:

- It is those who believe in the full red diamonds that should prove that they are period, not the other way around!

- And the only decisive proof would be: clearly demonstrating which maker(s), during which period, used the rare -but original?- full red diamond on his HJ’s.

The current approach, by showing some messed up and/or low quality knifes with full red diamonds from all different makers, from all different periods will never convince any logic thinking collector!

Good luck!

And best regards,

At least we have built up some referance here on the solid red/opaque enamel hj daimonds,

its not an easy task to find info solid red enamel hj pins like most things from the TR PERIOD!!

i have been told by many old time collectors that the good quality daimonds are genuine to hj knifes,

There are more believers so far & some good hard evidence will be forthcoming, watch this space



if certain people were not so hard to work with to discuss this subject it would make this a much easier task imo .

I could not agree more !

May i ask you if this translates across the board? Would it apply to say:

The (Fantasy) Reichsparteitage knives
The (Fantasy) Olympic HJ knives
The (Fantasy) DJ knives
The (Fantasy) BDM knives
The (humped up) DJ knives with diamond on the scabbard

The list could go on....

Would it not also be up to the people who believe that these are genuine, to PROVE IT ? Even if they were all covered in-print, yet lacked any footnote, lacked any evidence that what the author wrote about, and pictured, he did of his own free will, and on purpose, without backing anything up with facts, documents, history...nothing....

Surely? Or does this only apply to badges ?

I do not know that you can add. The diamond was recovered, while three faces were damaged and deformed. Images to extract not place unfortunately. Photos displayed after installing the diamond back. This operation is done in person. Owner knife sure that everything is correct. I doubt it, because the photo and put up for discussion.

Sam,

So the origional owner filed the daimond to fit the griplate recess as it was to big,

It will be a mystery as to how he fitted the daimond without damaging the 2 tangs imo,

can you ask him how he done the job please ?



Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66,
Says gradually removing face up beyond the diamond. Used tools for fine work, and oil. Then leveled and sanded mount diamond damaged face.
Regards, Sam_71.

Says gradually removing face up beyond the diamond. Used tools for fine work, and oil. Then leveled and sanded mount diamond damaged face.
Regards, Sam_71. [/quote]


Hi Sam,

i get the drift now, Thanks



Regards Mac 66.

Removed a reply of Mac, because of offensive talk.

And Mac, you are not allowed to post any links here.

I know that you topic has already been closed on WAF, so don't start here again, I will not allow it!

If you have proof:

WHICH MAKERS DURING WHICH PERIOD HAVE BEEN USING THE FULL RED DIAMONDS?

Than you can post it here directly.

Repeating yourself will also not been allowed here anymore.

You can go to the amateuristic forums and continue your ********-shat, if you want, but not here!

Best regards,

Herman

Goodbye & Farewell, enjoy your GDC forum.


WAF Thread Now Re-Opened

Kai Winkler has a cap for sale #90086 for a lot of money with a solid red daimond.Is this also fake?

Important link that will add more to this thread

Relic Hj knife with solid red diamond: http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290923&page=1



Mac 66.

Another Solid Red enamel diamond for the hj knife for referance: RZM M1/13 L. Christian Lauer, Nürmberg



Regards Mac 66.