I have seen threads on spotting replica SS, SA
daggers, but I think it would be a good thing to have a thread about deceptive HJs.

(if this was done in my absence, then please delete this thread..sorry!)

way back when, I remember that some had said any HJs with RZM mark that was horizontal with crossguard was questionable, as well as RZM marks with "canted" legs, and or legs not touching the "circle", things like this.

since that time I have seen pics of this mark (as a example for this thread) that the HJ is good.
I know a lip on a scabbard is a no go, but for newer members, can we update what we have discussed in the past?
I do not want to have this be a debate that gets out of hand, but lets share some info on what is up to date, and what to look out for, for US, by US!
I think its time for a "brush up" from our senior HJ experts, lets have a cold one, and learn some tips!

"GERMANY" on the blade is another no-no.

Every HJ dagger I look at the first thing I do before I pull it from the scabbard is to turn the HJ insert towords the ground and tap it to see if its loose. If its not loose I lay it back down and walk away. Mark

Mark, while this is a good indicator, but you miss several good originals as the diamond, if properly set at the factory, will not be loose.
A better indicator is the overall presentation and the fact that the scabbard on MOST repros is a dead giveaway. The lip, the paint finish, the leather and markings is usually a bigger factor than the diamond.
Also, look at as many KNOWN reproduction HJs as you can and you will find this lets you become familiar with what repros look like.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: Sometimes your best bet is to know your dealer.

Thanks guys, and Ron, this was what I was asking about, lets maybe see some KNOWN reproductions to compare to originals.

thanks so far guys!

Pictures would be a real help here so that the novices can see what to look for.

Dave

Here's one that looks like it could be be a light photo etched blade motto and maker mark. It has been paired with a real scabbard. Four pics, sorry don't have pic with the diamond, but I believe it was silver bordered and with a silver background to the swastika.

Maker mark. This one is also seen on the obverse ricasso as well, same maker.

Grip plates.

Blade motto and blade shape.

Perhaps someone else has the ricasso version to post. I've seen both 'new' looking versions, and also older looking versions of the ricasso marked type with better etching, and aging, maybe 30 -40 years old?

Hope this is of some help.

Regards
Russell

Here's another ebay-type item with the lipped scabbard. Two pics.

Regards
Russell

Closer.

Regards
Russell

Here's a link to a ricasso version of the RZM M7/2. It has the silver edged diamond, with the silver background to the swastika. The motto is also running from low left to high right on the blade.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/427101702/...650029594#2650029594

Regards
Russell

Another RZM M7/2 on the ricasso. The diamond on this one looks like it may have been replaced with an original, and it came with an original scabbard.

Motto also runs from low left to high right.

Diamond and grip.

Last one, grip reverse.

A pic of one of these RZM M7/2 ricasso marked knives is also seen in Frederick Stevens Reproduction? Recognition! book from 1976, so they're at least 30 years old.

Regards
Russell

A couple of ebay items that don't have the HJ diamond, but sometimes items like these come up for sale with an HJ diamond put in. First is a G.C.Co.

On the other side of this one, it is marked "Othello Solingen Germany".

Scabbard and grip.

Reverse

Blade

This one has the fleur-de-lis scout emblem.

Reverse..

Kissing cranes maker mark.

Full name Robert Klaas Germany on the obverse ricasso.

Regards
Russell

Keep in mind that the design of this knife existed before 'ole Adolf and after.

I cannot say about today, but in the 1970's you could buy that knife, with a green Boy Scout emblem, in Germany*. It had the scabbard with a lip as seen about posted by Ruski. Many have been artificially aged as above. Also the real thieves pry out the boy scout emblem and glue in an HJ pin.

Dave



I suspect that it was used as a scout knife in other European countries as well.

Hi

Is it possible to post pictures of a fake diamond and a good one next to each other to compare?

Some genuine examples to begin with a fake at the end. remember that they loose the deep red in the photographs but it might be useful if you have a suspect diamond. hope its of some help

mike

Early 23mm x 13mm






Later 25mm x 15mm




















Fake/Repro Below

M6/3 1937

RZM mark. I think M6 is for Aluminium items?

Grip plate

Another M6/3 1937, with what looks to be an original diamond.

Reverse...

Grip and diamond. There's also quite a seam on the upper side of the finger guard.

RZM and motto

Regards
Russell

Ruski,
Thank you, as well as others that have posted on this topic. I remember when HJs were rather inexpensive, and I feel given the hobby, and "times a changing" real Hjs are worth their weight in gold!
what better way to get educated on this dagger.
this is by no means to stop posting here, lets keep sharing the knowledge!

apologies for my lack of photos, my hosting website has banned me for offensive pics (hj diamonds/ sa daggers and EK's ) fascists

Thanks Paul. Another which is sometimes seen with the fleur-de-lis replaced with a fake or original HJ diamond.

Made in Germany is stamped onto the hanger.

Reverse is PIC Solingen Germany.

Hi Ruski you are right m6 is for aluminium products
Sean

Obverse is stamped with a number.

Regards
Russell

This one is from Hubertus. I understand that this company made scout knives before, and after the period, but they did not make HJ knives as we know them. I'm not aware of any RZM number for the company. After the war, I believe they were taken over by EuF Horster. Hubertus is now part of Kuno Ritter GmbH & Co KG, and the Hubertus mark is still in use today.

Fishers reference 2003 Edition has this to say about Hubertus:

"No NS daggers or knives were made or sold by Kuno Ritter under the Brand name Hubertus. Hitler Youth knives have been modified by an unknown third party after production, by replacing the fleur-de-lys diamond shaped insert with the Hitler Youth swastika insignia. These falsified knives have been fooling dealers and collectors alike since before 1984"

Diamond.

Regards
Russell

The PIC company and its TM began appearing on knives in the late 1950s. They initially made a set of three throwing knives in a leather sheath, all with the PIC TM on the blade and the grips were painted red, blue and green. The grip was part of the blade and just an extension of the steel with paint, although narrower and flat. These were SA Dagger blades, reground and slightly shorter with the grip and narrow with no motto trace left.
They also produced an HJ style knive with a 1/2 red and 1/2 with diamond of painted metal in the grip. These appeared at the same time as the throwing knives. All surplus material from left overs in Germany and all stamped with Germany on ths scabbards.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

This is a good example from a fellow forum member, marked SM/1940.

Reverse...

Obverse...

There's an SM/1940 on ebay now, great condition. Will be interesting to see what it goes for. Six days left to run...currently at $46 after 7 bids...

It has 'Germany' stamped into the upper obverse of the scabbard, as Ron has said about the PIC.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GERMAN-1940-TRENCH-KNIFE-MARKED-MIN...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Regards
Russell

Scabbard stamp.

Waiting on a diamond pic to arrive.

Anyone else got any more pics or info on replicas, fakes, postwar produced knives??

Mike is dealing with the missing 'diamond' pics from the hosting site that is too 'pc' .

Thanks Seany for the M6 confirmation.

Regards
Russell

This thread should have a disclaimer for the visitors!! There is too much junk on it haha. My eyes hurt!! especially the one in post 11 and 12! I havent seen anything worst than that!
Great job posting the pics guys.

This one is just marked 'Solingen' on the obverse ricasso.

Reverse....

Grip and diamond...

Very pronounced seam at the finger guard, running up between the grip plates.

Last one - rivet and plate. You can see how high the seam runs up the hilt.

Regards
Russell

ok, I have a Chinese special here.

blades

handles

RR blades

Here's another with markings that are complete fantasy.

1.

2.

3.

Regards
Russell

Another M7/2 1937.

Regards
Russell

A different version of a Klaas being offered on ebay. Five pics to follow.

Regards
Russell

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Great research for HJ-fakes, Russell !

This is a very valuable topic!

Best greetings,

Herman

Thanks Herman, I hope collectors will find it useful, and I'm thankful to Paul Horton for posting the question in the first instance.

Here's another interesting one that looks to be paired with an original scabbard.

Obverse grip and diamond.

Maker mark.

Last one, and this is the most interesting part - a waffen stamp to the ricasso.

Regards
Russell

look at the off stamping on the last pic,,,1746 .way off.and i have 3 of the rzm copys for display reasons.they sell here at a local flea mkt dealer for $11.00 each.

and the one with the (M) hot stamp is sold here. total fake.i use it too cut my tomatoes.

www.knifesearch.com/php/knifesearch.php?action=1&srchword=dagger

this is mine.the real deal.the hot stamping is horizontal not vertical .and not off center or rushed stamped like the china copys.

Another one found on ebay - the maker is RZM M7/38, and the rear is marked Germany. Six pics to follow.

Regards
Russell

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6

i have seen them online for about $9.

Another variation of the GC Co mark being sold as an original on ebay without diamond - two pics.

Regards
Russell

2

Good research, Russell!

Herman

Here's another one I found on ebay, being sold as a repro. Notice the scabbard doesn't have a lip, but looks to be missing the obverse rivet.

Regards
Russell

In the scabbard.

Motto.

Maker is another M7/38.

Last - diamond. Trying to find out whether the scabbard has covered runners or not and what is written on the reverse ricasso.

Regards
Russell

I am impressed, Russell, where do you keep finding these variations of fakes?

The last one is a real ugly one, especially the diamond, all fakes should be like this...

Thanks for the great job!

Best greetings,

Herman

Yes, Russell nice work to help the newer collector out there.

-serge-

Thanks gents. When Paul initiated the topic, I thought it would be an interesting one to research. Most have come from auction sites, and a few from other collectors posted on forums for a check on authenticity, and used with their permission here.

As you can see, most of these would not fool many people, but hopefully it may save some new collectors from wasting money, as there are a few quite good looking, 'older' fakes.

Here's the latest one I've seen - must be an HJ divers knife I suppose...

Regards
Russell

Wow Russell!
Where did you find that super rare "Tyrolian Vherewolf" HJ ???

-serge-

Hi Serge - yes, super rare, and obviously worth a great deal of money! An ebay bargain for the collector of the unusual...

Another M7/2.

Regards
Russell

Hi Ruski >>>what do you think about this Motto??
regards
Aleksandr

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3

Aleksandr, pics of the whole knife would be useful.

Regards
Russell

Hi Ruski >>>i am interested in one thing >>>the letter l>> in BLUT >>you see some inscriptions have the top of it rounded and mine is pointing and the letter h in >>Ehre >>in mine you can clearly see the loop of the upper part of the letter h and in other HJ's claimed to be original the loop is not visible it is like a line >>>i mean probebly there are few variations exist >>my HJ..is %100 original >>cause known dealers have seen the picture of it >>>> Do you have any info on this differences in Motto style?
regards

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Hi Aleksandr, I don't have a Heidelberg to compare with but the rest of the knife looks good to me from these small pics. I haven't studied motto differences on HJ's but there are probably some minor variations. Perhaps another member has one that could be compared to this one, but I think it is good. Could be an interesting topic to start.

The RZM pic has just been placed as I was writing, nice early transitional knife I think, and a nice one to have with the 1936 date imo - I don't think there is any problem at all with this knife.

Regards
Russell

This one was recently discussed here but viewed to be an old reproduction. Thanks to Petefish for permission to place it here. Notice there is no rivet on the scabbard obverse. Also, a seam running high up between the grip plates.

Regards
Russell

2

3. Notice the heavy and prominent seam running on the inside of the fingerguard.

Motto and sawback.

Last one - Puma maker mark which differs to known originals.

The sawback version was the official hiking knife of the postwar H. Youth copycat group "Wiking-Jugend" (now banned in Germany). Formerly,- Beschaffungsstelle @ Kleeweg 27, 5000 Köln 90. From their Preis- und Bestelliste, Sommer 1983, a Fahrtenmesser, rostfrei, Doppelkreuzsäge, Metallscheide, Odalruneneinlage, @ DM 22,--. It came with an aluminum Odalrune emblem, interesting that these have all been removed & replaced with enamel HJ diamonds. I still have the 1983 sales leaflet.

Great information Silesien. Can you post some pics of the knife from the sales leaflet?

Regards
Russell

Russell, I have no idea how to post pictures, but I'll email pics to you & you can post.

Posting for Silesien - 2 pics to follow.

Regards
Russell

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Silesien, do you know how and where the blades were marked - was it just Rostfrei?

The translation is stainless, double cross saw, metal sheath, Odal rune insert.

Regards
Russell

Russell, most were marked only "Rostfrei" on the obverse ricasso of the blade; but once in a while I'd see one with a maker. but don't recall the maker markings.

They weren't marked "Germany" or "Made in Germany" because they weren't meant for export.

Another on ebay being sold as a WW2 original knife.

Regards

Russ

Reverse. Hard to tell but this scabbard may have 'Germany' stamped just above the front rivet.

Grip obverse.

Grip reverse.

Maker mark.

Blade crossgrain.

Your threat is getting more complete and better all the time, Russ!

Thanks a lot!

Best greetings,

Herman

Hi, I will maeke a little input here. Here is another outstanding one being sold in Poland. I do not know the markings.

the secound one - grip

blade

Here's another posted with the owners permission. This has a typical postwar scabbard, likely to be made from alloy, has the thick lip at the throat not seen on steel originals and missing the obverse rivet. The hangers on these sometimes have a 'Made in Germany stamp' on the reverse. The paint is often badly chipped off or virtually no longer present like this one. Sometimes, postwar knives like these are paired with original scabbards.

Diamonds are sometimes removed from this type of postwar knife and replaced with an original, usually carefully glued in. There doesn't appear to be any seam lines present on the inner side of the fingerguard, or running up between the grip plates, which are often seen on fakes.

The maker mark is postwar, not a Third Reich era maker.

Regards

Russ