I have found a Kriegsmarine dagger by Malsch& Ambronn: I had never seen this maker before on a naval dagger and don't think it is shown or written about in any of the major reference books on the topic.

It's an early 3R production, with ship motif etch and hammered scabbard.

Does anyone has encountered one like these before?

Many thanks.

Herman

Beautiful. Never seen one by that maker.

There was a 2nd model luft dagger found by this maker a couple years ago,I don't think that one was universally liked, I can't prove it but I suspect this piece has had the maker mark added to a unmarked blade.

Gary

Thank you for the kind words, Vern!

Thanks for your comment, Gary.
Did you ever come across an unmarked Kriegsmarine dagger with the ship etch blade, I did not...
The color, dept and texture of mark and ship etch are identical (under the strong magnifying glass), in a stamped mark i would not have believed myself, I suppose...
Also the piece remains completely untouched and will stay like that: patina on the brass of the scabbard, where the gilding got worn off could be shiny polished (like most)
And I did not pay extra for the rare mark...
Still have the compare the eagle and other features with the known makers.

Did anyone come across another one or has a period Malsch & Ambronn catalogue?

Best regards,

Herman

Every collector knows about their SA's...

But they also made other stuff...

So there must have been a catalog from this firm...

Best regards,

Herman

Hermann, a very interesting Navy dagger. I remember the 2nd model Luft dagger that Gary speaks of. It was sold by Johnson to an advanced collector who is a forum member here. There were a variety of questions about it and ultimately it was returned to Johnson.

Navy daggers are not something I specialize in but I agree that the sailing ship motif doesn’t jump out to me as a likely candidate for an unmarked blade but as we all know, anything is possible in this hobby. What I’m wondering is if we can identify the parts as coming from a specific manufacturer.

The thing that jumps out to me is the logo not being centered, so much so that part of the top arc is missing. I’m assuming the logo is etched?

Yeah, I bought the M&A 2nd luft and returned it.

Too many niggling things wrong with it for my liking.

I have never seen another.

Jkhn

The Malsch trademark was added to the Kriegs blade. We saw this with the mint 2nd model referred to above as well.

Look how huge the logo is, and even how some of the border is missing.

Hello gents, as Herman V. states a navy dagger with yellow grip and sailing ship etching is not something beeing produced without makermark. I for myself have not heard (nor seen) of any. For me the shown navy is a WKC one and for unknown reasons marked with the mm of MALSCH. There are lot of possiblities why this did happen, perhaps a special production (assamblance of parts bought by the WKC company - but the own mm was put on the therefore unmarked blade) for any family member of MALSCH?
I like to ask a question: Who of you have seen an army dagger produced by HARTKOPF (double devils) ??? And there is one (only one up to now worldwide) which did come directly from the family (greatson) of the former wearer/owner. BTW PACK parts.
And there are one or two more "one-of- a-kind" makermarked armies known, ask the authors of the lates army book.
Due to the nice even overall patination, the one maker parts (up to the red washer) who did NOT produce etched blades without mm (WKC did stamp thier mark so an erasing of the old maker and etching a new one is for me out of reach), I personally have the feeling that it is an original one, period manufactured navy dagger.
And I personally have no problem with the small part of the border etching missing. the MALSCH mrk is very broad and does not fit well to a navy ricasso.
Just my peronal observations and opinion, regards,

I have never encountered a non maker marked etched Navy blade before. So to have a 'maker mark " on this blade seems perfectly fine. Not only that ,the maker mark itself looks very good imo.

Herman

Would you have purchased this dagger if it had a fouled anchor etch design to the blade, there are legitimate non maker marked Navy blades out there, personally I think that there are more sailing ship etched WKC' Navy's that were early than fouled anchor pieces so if the dagger is early which I believe it to be then it's more likely to have a sailing ship etch, why do you make the distinction in your first post, quite what has that to do with it being original to Malsch or not, personally after seeing the Malsch 2nd Luft that John originally bought I am still having difficulties in believing the Mark was originally etched onto the dagger during the 1933-45 period, of course there is a possibility that it is completely original, nobody was there during the period to say yea or nay, I suppose with all daggers whatever the type you have to be comfortable with it yourself, if your happy with it then that's great.

Wotan

Just to be clear are you saying that WKC didn't produce non maker marked blades or that when they did mark them it was always stamped rather than etched.

Gary

Hello Baz69 / Gary, I have written "...who did NOT produce etched blades without mm (WKC did stamp their mark ..." and the sentence is really missing somewhat. I have meant that WKC did not produce or use ETCHTED blades WITHOUT a makermark. At least I have never seen nor heard of any. And additionally the makermark of WKC always has been stamped therefore an erasing of the stamped and etching another mark seems to be out of reach for me.
I am aware that WKC has been one of the very few (or even the only one) manufacturers who did produce navies during the period without etch and without mm.
Regards,

The 2nd luft maker mark fit across the blade just fine.

I have only had this piece for a year or so, I rarely buy any dagger without maker mark, it's just personal preference but this piece caught my eye purely because of the condition, condition is the one trait I look for above all else, I have always thought this piece was produced by WKC, it certainly matches the other WKC maker marked pieces I have and seems to be a match for Herman's piece he posted, mine however has the fouled anchor etch and not the sailing ship, hence my question regarding the importance that Herman put on an unmarked sailing ship blade in his reply to my post, in my years of collecting I have not seen any other WKC unmarked etched Navy bladed dagger until this one if it is indeed deemed to be by WKC but just because I haven't seen another doesn't mean there are not at least a few out there, normally I would have congratulated Herman on finding such a rarity but knowing I had an unmarked piece and knowing that the 2nd Luft had not long been found I felt it necessary to comment on the possibility of an unscrupulous faker adding a possible spurious mark, it certainly goes in Herman's favour that he did not pay a premium for it but just because unmarked etched Navy blades are extremely rare does not preclude the possibility that the mark has been added to this blade, I can't imagine the reason somebody would pick on a Navy to do this but that chance in my eyes does exist and should not be ruled out.
I have not heard of a Malsch catalouge, maybe James Brown has one, it would be interesting to see if a Navy was included, it would go a long way to adding authentication to this piece, I hope that one is found and it is deemed original but as I have said many times in the past, if the new owner is happy with it then that's fine with me, I have a few pieces that I'm sure would be called into question but I'm comfortable with them and that's all that matters.
If you think this is or is not by WKC please feel free to comment either way.

Gary

Wotan, Mikee, Gary, John,

Many thanks for your valuable inputs concerning this Kriegsmarine dagger!
I will compare the characteristics (different parts) during the coming weekend with the more common Kriegsmarine dagger versions.
Still hoping someone has a catalog by Malsch & Ambronn...

Best regards,

Herman

Baz69, thruely an amazing piece! What I can see from the pics WKC through and through, but having the seasnake etching.The first one I have ever seen. Again the only true saying in this hobby is "never say never".
Thank you for posting, regards,

Wow Gary, Yep never say never. That'a a keeper!

Superb piece Gary, I would have bought this unmarked example as well.

The Malsch & Ambronn trademark has been added to the 2nd luft and the navy dagger complete with blade etch Panels.
100% postwar added trademark..
Some of these stayed in Germany while most were sent to a well known dealer (who is no longer with us) and sold to closet collectors (never on website) and now after some time has past seem to be surfacing.
Have the postwar trademark artwork etc. for this in my archive .
It is not fun to post these negative facts..

I notice the Malsch & Ambronn TM is also appearing on Rohm daggers

These Rohm blades must be all fake??
Surely they are not removing a good maker mark to make a rare one?? Or are they?
Ed

I cant believe that the SA that Fitzer shows above has just been ok'd by wittmann at the cornfield show !! and low and behold who has it but none other than walter kanzler unbelievable

What are the chances.

James

Thank you for your insights, I can imagine it is not fun with these disclosures, I feel for Herman as I do for anybody getting caught with these fakes, I am surprised the etch panels are also added postwar, that'a very concerning.

Gary

Don't need to feel sorry, Gary, I am VERY happy with this dagger!

Of course, I understand the skepticism of many, though some of them are a bid too predictable... as always...

Several very experienced Kriegsmarine dagger collectors (here and elsewhere) have noticed the quality of the dagger (and the maker mark!), just based on the few pictures that I have posted here and they are curious to see more of it.

Well, I have not found the time to compare it with the other 10 Kriegsmarine makers currently in my collection, yet, but more pictures are to come soon!

Thanks to everyone for participating to the post so far!

Best regards,

Herman

PS: I understand the different opinions concerning the MM, but anyone who believes that this is a fake dagger, knows absolutely nothing about Kriegsmarine daggers...

Here are, as promised, some extra pictures.

The dagger is a full WKC product (except for the blade mark), as clearly can be see when surrounded by daggers by this maker: below 2 ship etched blades, on top 2 anchors.

Still no period "Malch & Ambronn" catalog has surfaced?

Best regards,

Herman

Even at 400 %, the "Malsch & Ambronn" mark still looks as good as on my SA!

Here are some comments on the full Röhm SA posted higher in the topic:

- You should always find 10 to 50 ground and partial Röhm daggers for every full Röhm you encounter!
How many have you seen with this mark? Zero! That means this inscription was added to a very tired standard M33 Malsch & Ammbron SA blade.

- Plus: even from this very bad picture, you can see that the maker mark and the inscription are totally differently etched: color, depth... everything.

Best regards,

Herman

Hello all,

I follow carefully your posts and my conclusion is that I am still very suspiscious concerning this maker when we know that its activity has been post war active , Malsch has been the official factory allowed for FKM repairs under the DDR control ! consequently we can suppose that some tools of production were used after 1945 ...

any comments please ?

S+

Hello Seppi,

The postwar production Kriegsmarine daggers are well known and documented (check out Tom Whitmann's Naval book for this): the 1 screw scabbards, the E&F Hörsters, the late marked Clemen & Jung, ...etc.
So it is certain that some factories continued their production after WWII ended, the WKC firm however was not one of them.

Also, those who know something about Kriegsmarine daggers, will have observed that this is not a wartime production dagger, but most likely a 1938-39 produced dagger, so the theory of continued wartime production is not an option: the dagger would be completely different.

But of course, you are free to think (or speculate about) whatever you want.

Best regards,

Herman

Re Herman ,

my opinion on Malsch & Ambronn concerns only on mainly the FKM , this KM dagger whatever its origine is a
marvel .

best.

S+

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/kriegsmarine-daggers/kriegsmarine-dagger-collection-342128-3/

Here is a non maker marked navy dagger on another forum. Post 25.

Stay tuned for the next round of Malsch logo marked: helmets, tinnies, and Red Cross hewers :))

I actually hope that another Kriegsmarine dagger by this maker would surface to compare this one with...


And honestly, JR, do we still have to take you serious?

A dealer who states that "cross grain was a real curse for the dagger makers at the time"... when he has a batch of buffed blades to sell!

And when the bad blades are gone... cross grain becomes again a quality to look for, right?



Herman

You continually spread more disinformation all the time. And why the forums haven't tossed your ignorant ass off is beyond belief.

Guys ..............

I don't think this will happen. Malsch&Ambronn was not a maker of the KM daggers. Your dagger is a typical WKC product with a post-war-etched blade.

Best,
Oleg.

We're all adults,, a little bit of infighting we can take.... , BUT for those of us that are not 'dagger guys' and find this very interesting please state matter of facts [if possible]

So for us non dagger collectors trying to learn is:.

The early [or all?] etched KM daggers should not have the Malsch& Ambronn maker on them? and SAs as well?


- Guess a period catalog of all Malsch& Ambronn pieces with options/embellishments would help immensely................

Until now, kriegsmarine daggers by Malsch&Ambronn are not known. If you know 83 years have passed since their introduction. Even if such daggers were in the Malsch&Ambronn catalog, this would not mean that the company actually produced them. In the catalog of the firm of Richard Plumacher there is a kriegsmarine dagger. However, daggers produced by this company are also unknown. Fakers deliberately use the logos of companies that did not produce these daggers so that there is nothing to compare them with.

https://www.kriegsmarinedolch.de/plümacher-richard/

Best,
Oleg.

The same story with the Firm Paul Seilheimer.
Best,
Oleg.

https://www.kriegsmarinedolch.de/seilheimer-paul/

Oleg,,makes sense,,,thanks greatly!

Hello Oleg,

Thank you for your input here, which is much appreciated, as you are specializing in Kriegsmarine daggers.

Though, I don't understand your comparison with that Plümacher blade, that is a 100% fabricated blade.

Do you have any examples to show of original Kriegsmarine blades, to which maker marks have been added postwar?


So the Seilheimer firm has a Kriegsmarine dagger in their catalog, but never one has surfaced yet?

In my opinion that supports the theory, that never seen Kriegsmarine dagger makers still can pop up!


Also, in Tom Wittmann book on German navy daggers, several ultra rare makers, of which I have never encountered a specimen myself are listed: Emil Voos, SMF, Anton Wingen Jr and Carl Julius Krebs. Also about 10 years ago a Kriegsmarine Klaas blade (non U9 etched) surfaced here on the forum.

What is your opinion on these daggers, of which also only 1 or 2 are known?


And finally: if you are in the hobby for quite some time, you will realize that type collecting is a rather recent way of collecting: 20 years ago, dagger collectors only wanted just 1 of each type or 3R organization in their collection. Now collections of hundreds of daggers of the same organisation exist. This explains why we still find makers that are not documented yet... also on Kriegsmarine daggers!

Best regards,

Herman

I just checked your website Oleg, very interesting!

I found over there all the known postwar produced daggers (with their typical makers marks) and some horrible completely fake blades like that Bonsmann...

But the period blades with added maker marks, that you mentioned higher, where are they?

Best regards,

Herman

Regarding the rarer maker Kriegsmarine daggers, I’ve seen two Carl Julius Krebs examples and two Klaas (non U9) examples. From memory, the parts were a little specific and couldn’t have been mixed up with loose parts from other makers.

The Krebs examples weren’t in great shape. The Klaas examples were ok enough but sold for considerable money.

Although I’ve never seen an SMF Kriegsmarine example, I do know Chip Gambino many years ago had an SMF Water Protection Police dagger. Athough I did scrutinize it, I couldn’t find anything inherently wrong with it.

Now if we’re talking a Voos or Wingen example, those would be desirable.

Hello Herman,

the blade by Plümacher was just an example. Of course is it a 100% fabricated blade. But, in theory, one could also say that this is a rare manufacturer found only recently. OK,
let’s forget Plümacher. In your opinion, the fact that there is a navy dagger in the Seilheimer catalog supports the theory that the daggers from unknown manufacturers can still pop up.
I have a different opinion on this matter. And here's why: too much time has passed and collectors have gained quite a lot of experience. There are groups of collectors who specialize in certain types of edged weapons. You are also one of them. It may be naive, but, for example, I completely trust your opinion about Hitler Youth knives, even if it is confirmed only by your experience, and not by documents or examples. This is not a compliment, it is a fact.
About the ultra rare producers from the book of Thomas Wittmann, I saw the dagger by Emil Voss, the daggers by Karl Julius Krebs and the daggers by Robert Klaas. I cannot confirm or deny their originality. But I do not find any problems at all with the Krebs daggers. They have the same characteristics, just like, for example, Adolph Brown( *).
We should also not forget that these ultra rare producers were mentioned in Thomas Wittmann's book 22 years ago. And, nevertheless, as far as I know, the daggers of these manufacturers have not met since then collectors in real life.
It is very difficult for me to imagine that during all these long years somewhere there was dagger by manufacturer which until now has not been met by anyone.
Herman, I do not want to spoil your mood or your day. I just express my opinion on the dagger in this thread. Maybe earlier it was a WKC dagger with a plain blade. Then someone etched it and a logo. What for? I do not know. Maybe it was an experiment. Maybe it was a tentative attempt to see the collectors' reaction to this blade.
And, once again, all I have said is only my personal opinion based on my personal experience. Everyone can decide for himself whether to pay attention to this opinion or ignore it.

Best regards,
Oleg.

(*) Recently in Belgium were sold an auction a navy dagger by Adolph Braun dagger with a white grip and a navy dagger by Eichhorn with an orange grip. I assume that the former owner took apart the daggers and then confused the handles. This is in regards to the collecting experience.

Hello Oleg,

Thank you for your honest and well argument-ed opinion on this topic, I really appreciate that, even if our views differ.

Just a couple extra comments, I would like to make from my side:

- When I found my Eickhorn SA Xmas dagger, only a decade ago: even several of the well known dealers did not know what that was.

- I have several HJ-knife versions and makers that are not in any reference book so far.

So, I believe that there still might be rare variations and makers of 3R etched weapons that are not yet generally known about.


And about this Malsch & Ambronn Kriegsmarine dagger: the blade has (next to the maker mark) a specific feature that not any WKC blade is showing!
I cannot reveal this here, because it is my verification for when another one would pop up.

So I am convinced, that the dagger was an order by Malsch & Ambronn at the WKC firm, but the blade was custom etched for them. And I believe that there must be more out there!


And finally, so far I have never encountered any authentic, period Kriegsmarine dagger, to which the maker mark has been added postwar, have you?

Or anyone else?

If so, please show them.

Thanks & best regards,

Herman

Hello Herman,

here a pictures of an original Eickhorn with a postwar etched blade.

Best,
Oleg.

Herman,

I'm sorry, but this assumption looks illogical. If Malsch & Ambronn would order this blade by WKC, so would WKC have performed the etching with their own standard patterns. That is, this etching, on the contrary, would have to be identical to the etching from WKC and should not have the differences that you are talking about.

Best,
Oleg.

Hi Oleg,

Let me start by asking you the following: how many different etching patters did WKC use during the period in your opinion?

Best regards,

Herman

Oleg,

Are you stating here that this was an unmarked, 3R period Carl Eickhorn made dagger, to whom only the squirrel mark has been added postwar by a faker?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

WKC produced blades etched with dolphins, etched with a sailing ship and without etching.

Best,
Oleg.

Herman,
I don't know what this blade was like before the fakers etched and branded it. But you wanted to see an original post-war etched dagger, didn't you?
Best,
Oleg.

Thanks for your fast reply, Oleg,

These are indeed the 3 general types of WKC-blades during the 3R period.

But I am talking about the sub variations of the main etching types, have you studied these as well?

Best regards,

Herman

Thanks Oleg,

But what I am looking for is authentic period Kriegsmarine daggers to which only a maker mark was added.

That is what some (including yourself) state here that the Malsch & Ammbronn dagger must be.

So, I am looking for Kriegsmarine dagger examples like that.... if they exist?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

I don't see the point in going around in circles. We can treat each blade with a different point or a line as a sub variation. Besides, do I understand correctly that you want to see the original etched blade, to which only the logo was added after the war? If so, how do you want to define it? I have already expressed my opinion on this blade. Perhaps it is an entirely post-war blade, or the original un-etched blade that received the etching and logo after the war. It may be that an original WKC blade, with which this dagger left the factory, was damaged (broken, rusted, etc.). Therefore, it was replaced with the blade that we see on this dagger now. Once again, for 83 years no one has seen Kriegsmarine daggers by this maker. I consider it nonsense to suggest that Malsch & Ambronn ordered one single blade from WKC and this blade has only now been found. Therefore, I think that there is no secret or sensation here.
However, you have already said in this thread that you are happy with this dirk. All is well, then, because you paid your own money for this dagger.
My opinion about this dagger remains unchanged. I wish you a lot of fun with it. As long as he stays with you, you will have any problems with it.

Best,
Oleg.

Gentlemen,

a really interesting discussion regarding the dagger shown at the beginning.

Personally, I too have some doubts about the maker's mark, but who can say that one has seen everything? I can’t, and I have seen a lot when it comes to navy daggers.

Such individual pieces are very difficult to judge. What speaks for them is that they are almost unique. What counterfeiter with a monetary interest should go to such lengths faking it, please?
On the other hand, collectors should try to acquire pieces that can be proven by reference books or sites like Oleg’s great website. Here, it should be noted, we should keep within the scope of what we are talking about. Unfortunately, citing completely different edged weapons does not make much sense, since the maker's marks did not always match.

I think we can leave it at that.

Of course, the administrator of a specialized website will have to focus on textbook specimens.
An individual collector, on the other hand, can of course go much further and research things that are unknown but therefore in the beginning a matter of believing.
The contradiction between the two views is resolved here, which makes the hobby exciting imho.
Accordingly, we should treat each other with respect. We all want to expand and confirm the state of knowledge.

Looking forward to see more educated knowledge and examples of interesting KM Daggers.

Best;
Flyingdutchman

Oleg,

Sorry, but you seem to be the one turning in circles here.

I asked you twice 2 very simple questions and they still remain unanswered:

- Do you know that there are different sub patterns of the WKC etch (and I am not talking about a line or a dot extra!) on Kriegsmarine daggers or not?

- Do you have seen any authentic Kriegsmarine daggers with a postwar added maker mark or not?

If you cannot answer these, just a "no" or "I don't know" is fine with me...

I am not asking you to review your opinion on the Malsch and Ambronn dagger itself, that I really don't expect, nor need.

Best regards,

Herman

Hello Oleg,

I just checked the WKC section of your website and got the answer to my first question over there: you don't seem to know about the different WKC patters...

By checking your section "Kopien" I also found the answer to my the second question: you don't seem to have any examples of authentic daggers with a postwar added maker mark.

Anyway, thanks for participating to the discussion here!

Keep up the information gathering!

Best regards,

Herman

Hello Herman,

thank you for your advice. Of course I will continue to collect information. Because it is an activity that helps prevent the promotion of fakes on the market.

Best regards,
Oleg.

Something else to consider for the participants to this topic: Malsch & Ambronn was not at all a small producer, what some still seem to believe here...

The wonderful research list of Mr Mike McAlvanah rates this company's rarity: 3/10!

What means that they probably must have produced tens of thousands of early M33 SA daggers!

Much more than companies like Puma, Paul Weyersberg, E&F Hörster, FW Höller, SMF and even... WKC!

They got the same rarity rating as Anton Wingen JR, from whom also only one (or a few?) Kriegsmarine daggers have surfaced so far...


Malsch & Ambronn certainly must have focused on their large early SA production, because during my 20 years of collecting, I found only just one HJ-knife with their famous "pumping man" mark...


Best regards,

Herman

Hello,

I have now taken a much closer look at the pictures. The manufacturer's logo, which is too large and not centred, does not convince me personally.
It does not matter whether these or other logos can be found on any mass-produced SA daggers, this is a piece of the Kriegsmarine.

As long as there are no reference pieces, and there are none - I have been dealing with this subject for more than twenty years - and also no catalogue entries from that time, it will be difficult to qualify this maker's mark as original.

As long as the owner is happy with it, all is well. I hope that he will be successful in his research to prove the manufacturer for the Kriegsmarine. We would all learn from this.

Best;
Flyingdutchman

These pictures are from items in my personal archive. I do not like sharing it on the internet..
Pictured below is the oversize postwar artwork for the logo. (with adjustments using white out) squaring arm off straight instead of a radius etc.
Than etcher reduced artwork using photography to correct size to make etching plate template.

2nd photo is of the postwar etching plate. Still with black wax resist on it.. Also of the 4 logos on the plate notice the top left logo, Radius at end of arm..
Regards:

Forgot to mention There are 3 different logos here.
1. Top left radius end of arm and pump handle.. As on Hermann's Navy logo.
2. Top right NO radius on end of arm but still on PUMP HANDLE,
3. Bottom left and right seem to be last generation...
When you look at the oversize postwar logo art you can see the whiteout used to make these adjustments..

… great and interesting insights, Damast. 🙏

Thank's James

I for one appreciate you showing some of your personal archive, pretty conclusive in my opinion, but as I have said before if the owner is happy then that's all that matters.

Cheers

Gary

Thanks Gary and Flyingdutchman
I did not think I would have to drive it home that way (post maker mark pictures) but some of the posts were directed at me and were insulting.



Here is a Rare 38 model .. 1st collector to own it..
And now for the awkward silence on this thread..

Hello Damast,

That is a very interesting addition to the topic, thanks!

However, I have seen many templates like these before, inscription & motto templates, also Eickhorn and other maker marks... etc.
Some are shown in the Johnsons reference books, if believe.
I have never really understood when or were these would have been applied? Do you have seen any examples used into practice?

Anyway, the mark you show here would never fit on a Kriegsmarine blade, which is only 1.7 cm wide....
Blade etching and maker mark being etched at the same time on Kriegsmarine daggers, the one you show of 4 marks in a square certainly was not used!

So, I don't really understand, what you are trying to proof with your pictures?
But maybe you can explain?

Best regards,

Herman

Just was comparing those Malsch & Ambronn maker marks you posted, Damast.

They don't even come close to the mark on my Kriegsmarine dagger...

So you are really helping me with proving my dagger to be all authentic!

Thanks a lot for this!

Best regards,

Herman

Ok, I will start from the beginning. As this is very BASIC concepts in making etching plates..
Question?? Do you understand how etching plates are made?????

Many times the artwork for the etching plates is done many times oversize ..
Why is the original hand done artwork done oversize?????????????????????
Because through photography they reduce the original art to the correct size and have a negative.. The size on your Navy dagger..
THIS IS THAN USED TO MAKE THE METAL ETCHING PLATES... Also the artwork is done oversize to make imperfections almost unnoticeable...
The metal plate I have pictured with the logos is the same size as your postwar trademark on your Navy..
Hermann you are embarrassing yourself here and seem to be in total denial.. The logo in the metal plate was used for your navy dagger..

How can I help you ?? What more do you want to see??? You seem to not understand what the photos mean...

Hermann there must be a language barrier:

Read my original post again on the size of the black and white artwork..
In the second photo the logo is the same size as what is on your Navy..


To help you understand I have posted another picture..
Picture below the two lines I added shows approximately how wide a navy dagger blade is compared to logo on etching plate..

hermann
If you do not understand how these plates are used than you must educate yourself as your lack of knowledge is very apparent.
Again as the logo on your Navy dagger you seem not to understand what you are looking at..
I get it your a ego type collector and your ego is hurt . But I post only the facts and if you do not understand what you see that is your problem when you go to sell the dagger.
I posted on this thread doing YOU a favor (helping to try to educate you) and you crap on me..
Do you want the name of the company who etched your blade???? Do you want to know how much the black and white artwork cost ??? IN GERMAN MARKS that is ???
I would think to you this would not make a difference, as you say (you are happy with it..)
And that says it all.

I know how etchings work, Mr Damast.

CAN YOU SHOW PIECES WHERE THIS POSTWAR TEMPLATES WERE USED ?

That was the question.

Herman

Yes, your Navy dagger
you do NOT know how they make etching plates..
Please explain what you know..

And please don't play "Smart ass" here... that will not help the topic further!

I think that you urgently need new glasses, Mr Damast!



That maker mark is not even close: the man is way to fat and the details are all wrong: check it for yourself!

Best regards,

Herman

PS: May I ask you, what you are actually collecting?

Hahaha,

Sorry, you are not to be taken serious, Damast!

This is not a topic about making etching plates; go to Utube for that!


Must be one of the JR clan, I presume?

Collecting buffed blades? The less cross grain the better?

Hahaha

Herman

Oh Hermann
Were did that come from J.R. Clan

Now you are insulting J.R. Was that a insult or what does that mean??? ( J R clan) matter of fact ask JR.
No I belong to no clan
Read my posts and you have the correct answers.. What do you not understand...
Look at the metal plate logos..
Please explain how the etching plates are made.. Start to finish..

Those plates you show would make the most horrible, blurry maker marks, Damast: dead giveaway fake etches!

Don't tell me that you, the great specialist, does not see that?


So do you have anything else to show, or are you going to post the same thing over and over again?

And not answer my simple questions?

Best regards,

Herman

PS: Seriously, I don't have the slightest idea of what you actually collect?

OK, who is next?

Anyone who collects period catalogs?

Maybe someone with an advanced Kriegsmarine collection finally noticed this topic ?

I am getting a bid desperate...

Best regards,

Herman

If you will not read my posts so be it.

My apologies if I insulted Your great ego Hermann . I'm just in awe of your great and all-knowing knowledge. You really are the anointed forum internet expert and oracle .
You are the poster child for the phrase ( Ignorance is bliss) or (you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink..)
I'm just totally amazed at your huge depth of knowledge.. Now I'm totally speechless

Damast, really, I do not want to offend you...

But, the point you try to make here, with all your postings of one and the same image seems to be the following:

- Fakers made a (not very well detailed) etching plate of 4 Malsch & Ambronn logo's.
- Than they looked for a, hard to find, unmarked WKC dagger, produced around 1938-39
- They then adapted, improved and reduced their Maisch & Ambronn etching plate to the size of that Kriegsmarine dagger blade.
- And finally they used their etching plate... just once!

Common, don't tell me that you believe that yourself?

Best regards,

Herman

PS: I propose you check Ralph Siegert's reference books, there many etching plates are shown and how they were used, if those are what you collect...

Gentlemen ......

Please tone it down a little.

Thanks
Dave

Unlike what many collectors (and some dealers) seem the believe: Malch & Ambronn was NOT a maker of water pumps, who temporary switched to production of SA-daggers.

They were specialized in all kinds of knifes and cutlery. So it makes perfectly sense that they produced (and distributed) several types of 3R dress daggers.

Also note that many different "pumping man" maker marks have been used.

Best regards,

Herman

Other mark:

"Am Bronn" means "at the well" according to Carter's book.

Many German sword and knife manufacturers used different versions of their trademarks. Look at ASSO - different version for SA and SS daggers.

The point that concerned me when I first saw this dagger was that the trademark was off center with a small piece of the border missing. Most manufacturers are very finicky about their trademarks. They go to some length to design and register unique marks and defend them strongly against knock offs and look-alikes. How did this dagger escape the normally detail conscious workers and vigilant inspectors ?

Hello Dave,

That is indeed a valid observation and remark!

And I must admit, that it was the only element, that made me hesitate for a moment to buy this dagger.

But I have been reassured about it, because the same can be seen on several larger maker marks on the typical, very thin blades of the Kriegsmarine dagger (see pic hereunder)

You will also find several examples in Tom Wittmann book on German Navy daggers.

Best regards,

Herman

I also think the makermark of M&A was added post war. I also think there are unmarked blades out there with the sailing ship etch. As a matter of fact, I have one in my collection.

Regards
Danny

Could you show it here, Danny?

And both etched sides if possible?

Thx,

Herman

Ofcourse Herman, I will take some pictures tomorrow.

Regards
Danny

IMO seems many people are dismissive of things neither known or seen prevously we can judge engraved and numbered/personalized daggers based upon the "newness" of the dedication, engraving or etch and style. In 2019 I attended the MAX and brought a generic double engraved Heer dagger with a luft and heer etched blade. Both Wittmann and Johnson loved it even though they had never seen one previously. NOTHING beats an in hand inspection. In good light all details are visible I am certain that an "in hand" examinatiion will answer many questions. cheers and best, Ryan

That’s my dagger. That’s the one I was talking about when I said I had a sailing ship etched navy dagger without maker mark.

Regards
Danny

Hello Danny,,

Thx for the link, nice unmarked Kriegsmarine dagger!

Have you been able to identify the maker? I cannot make it out from your posted pictures, due to the used angle... but I don't recognize a WKC eagle...

Best regards,

Herman

Thanks Herman. The eagle is WKC just like the scabbard. It’s the early variant of the WKC pommel. That fits the sailing ship etch perfectly. Just like the one in post #3.

Regards
Danny

Thank you, Danny, that is excellent news!

Herman

Just as I expected, the unmarked WKC ship pattern Kriegsmarine of Danny, has NOT the same blade etch as on my Malsch & Ambronn dagger!

So that is another clear indication for me that the dagger was produced by WKC, specially ordered by the Malsch & Ambronn firm.

It is NOT an unmarked WKC blade with the MM added!

Best regards,

Herman

Is this the same blade on a post-war dagger that has had a swastika added?
https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/fo...nted-on-oddly-marked-kriegsmarine-dagger

May I suggest that you use a bigger screen or order new glasses, Lamby.?

Herman

And we sometimes wonder why there are no new people getting involved on this site.

Hello Ed,

Newly made profiles are not necessary new collectors/people joining the forum.

I would recommend that you read the 10 posts that "Lamby" has made, during his almost 4 years of membership on GDC...

At least, my Mailsch & Ambronn Kriegsmarine dagger seems to have woken him up, after more than 2 years of complete silence... and good for 20% of all his posts ever!



Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Lamby has indeed made 10 posts in almost 4 years. Some members have less to say than others, perhaps ?

I read those posts and I found them to be on topic and polite, which is more than I can say for some of your recent posts

If you think Lamby needs to visit the optometrist or should need a bigger monitor, please keep those thoughts to yourself.

Thanks,
Dave

The borders of the blade etching are double as large on the postwar blade (picture below) compared to the WKC-Malsch& Ambronn etch.

See my comments about that in the topic on WAF!

What else do you want me to say to people who don't (want to) see that?

Best regards,

Herman