Hi Guys

I really need some input on this grip.

Does any of you have a 2nd luft or army dagger from Eickhorn with trolon ends?

Regards Henrik

Did you test to see if this genuine ivory? IMO this appears to be one of those 'simulated' ivory grips you sometimes see especially on 2nd Lufts. It would make sense that the trolon insert has coloured over time while the simulated ivory (consisting of a different substance configuration) has stayed constant. I say this because the simulated ivory grip I had on an fairly early 2nd Luft had not changed colour.

Imho no need to test and do any harm to an otherwise nice ivory grip. This is the absolutely correct configuration for a period EICKHORN true ivory grip!
Most of these rare grips from EICKHORN are done exactly this way (I think to spare the rare material) and only few, which have a slightly different form, also have ivory ends.
Regards,

Wow, interesting grip..never seen one with core like this! Kevin.

Here's my simulated ivory grip for comparison. Looks very similar with the ivory type grain.

Thank you Wotan, that's what I like to hear :-)

I'll make pics. to show here later.

Henrik

I certainly learned something! Thanks Wotan.

I was totally convinced this was synthetic ivory.
Thank you guys.

Wotan:

I have several ivory gripped daggers in my collection, one is an Eickhorn Heer, and none of them exhibit this trolon end configuration. And, over the years, as the odd Eickhorn ivory gripped dagger has appeared to me, I have never seen this configuration.

And, this is the first time that I have heard of an Eickhorn two part ivory grip.

Do you have any links or sources for this assertion?

Don't get me wrong, I am the last one to say 'never', but this is a new fact for any Eickhorn collector, like me. And, I am certainly not challenging your statement, only asking for more proof.

John

seems like a lot of work to me to hollow out a piece of ivory (to save material ?)and put another material inside .My ivory rip Army is ivory thru n thru I removed the pommel and test for ivory when I bought it. As John said never say never. Also my Army is a no M/M

Here more pics.

Henrik

They did not hollow out the inside... Only ends rew made of Trolon.
Perhaps it was to save ivory? Man-hour was cheap at the time, and ivory expensive.

Henrik

Believe me, I am not very happy that this little secret is disclosed here in public. As you see there are very very few collectors who know this fact and under certain circumstances it is a sure fact that an EICKHORN ivory grip is true ivory and period done.
As ivory grips for EICKHORN daggers are rare and not each one will be disambled the fact up to now remained nearly unknown.
Here is an EICKHORN ivory grip, once shown by our member janjan in 2007 and my personal one (I will not disamble my dagger as I once have done it and have seen the grip) has exactly the same configuration. I have seen one more personally.
I have seen other period ivory grips used by other firms and no other one has had this configuration.
Imho it for sure was to save material, nearly about 1,5 centimeters each grip which would be otherwise hidden by the grip ring and the pommel cap (so not necessary ivory) 7-9 grips will save one additional grip of rare material.
Regards,

Forgot to add: Artificial ivory grips -up to now- are never with these trolon ends (because why? - it was not necessary to save the artificial material).
Regards,

One additional fact: all EICKHORN army daggers I have seen with these grips (they are already to be recognized from putside because they do resemble the "normal" EICKHORN army grip best) do have the smaller stamped trademark.
Regards,

Interesting. I have ivory gripped navies from the same period ( they are Eickhorn and WKC) and they both are ivory through and through just like imperial navy pieces. Also, their surface has a vitreous luster, not semi gloss like artificial ivory. Further, all of the real ivory grips show the grain in the grip to differ, that is differential growth rates results in a varying size of the fine layers in the ivory. Lastly, all real ivory grips I have show some level of shrinkage over the years resulting in the fine age lines we often see. Anyone else with a confirmed ivory gipped piece observe the same?

Best...

This is a great discussion. First of all, I have no doubt the grip is period and authentic but I'm still convinced this is simulated ivory:

1) There is no 'ivory' age to this piece (i.e cracks, striations, yellowing). It also has a 'soft' look to it around the edges.
2) It too closely resembles simulated ivory grips with the same type of uniform deep grain but no other ivory characteristics per #1
3) As Ed Martin and Stratocaster state most ivory grips are ivory throughout. Bonding the trolon insert to ivory seems very risky given the brittle nature and changing/shrinking composition of ivory over time.
4) Because the trolon insert has remained intact and well fitted,IMO it has been bonded with some other simulated substance; and if you look at the top trolon piece it hasn't been inserted but rather bonded to the surface.
5) At one time the trolon insert and grip matched. Unlike trolon and most ivory, simulated ivory grips don't change colour over time.

http://www.ebay.com/gds/How-to-Tell-if-I...10311348/g.html

Just on looks alone it is simulated ivory. A nice example, but the cost of the real thing is significantly higher and adds appreciably more value to a dagger.

Sorry guys, there is not the least doubt, These are ORIGINAL IVORY grips. I do HAVE mine with the same configuration IN HANDS and I know what real ivory is and know the difference to artificial ivory.
Regards,

Thanks Wotan for keep backing me up on this grip :-)

Real Ivory must be a lot heavier than plaster filled Celluloid?

Henrik

It seems to me that the truth here is easily ascertained.
Henrik, why not heat up a needle until it is red and press it against the grip. If Ivory, no indentation or mark. If synthetic, the needle will tell you.

I see no reason to even discuss it further until someone does this simple test.
Just my opinion.

Henrik, you are right, this is an additional fact, you immediately recognize a disambled grip because of it´s weight.

@ Jim W, a glowing needl against an ivory grip.... You might do it, I will NOT do it.

You all can believe me that true ivory is distinctive for the experienced collector. And what I said about this certain grip is NO assumption but knowledge. You can take it or leave it, from my side all is said concerning the grip in question.

But I make an offer: I buy EVERY Eickhorn army with this grip configuration for the price of a common Eickhorn army.
Regards,

Wotan, every collector here is willing to pay the price of a regular army gripped dagger for a synthetic army gripped dagger. The synthetic grips bring a premium, so your offer is nonsense.
As to me putting a hot needle against my synthetic grip that looks on the outside like this one, why would I do that. I know my grip is synthetic. And this comes from a collector with numerous German and non German ivory grips.

The only way Henrik will know for sure is to have the grip tested.

Gentlemen,

a German dealer offers the same configuration on an Eickhorn dagger, claiming that the "Bakelite" supported grip is genuine ivory.

https://www.weitze.net/detail/59/Wehrmacht_Heer_WH_Dolch_fuer_Offiziere__148259.html
Best;
Flyingdutchman

looks like a winner..

If you put genuine ivory under black light, you will see a faint glow. I don't know what you get with a simulated example, but my guess is it will not glow.

Knowledge is one thing but fact is another. Per Jim W; because of all the speculation here, it should be tested

I certainly wouldn’t put a hot pin in my grip that’s Ridiculous to even ask someone to do that. Wotan is no beginner I am confident he can tell the difference....This is getting quite silly. We should be fortunate he shared this information with us I thank him for that.

When testing with the needle u usually do it under the pommel area or under the cross guard area. I certain wouldn't do it on the grip surface.

The one on Weitze's site doesn't fit the criteria that Wotan was talking about.

John

I have seen and held numerous simulated ivory grips, and all had either a plaster or wood core. Does anybody have a solid simulated ivory grip they can post pictures of please?.

Great info Wotan btw !

John good point - I think the key info is Wotan stated he has seen this grip variation in combination with the small stamped mark so that tells me this is a later grip configuration
adopted Post 1940-41

I own over 70 edged weapons with Ivory grips! the example shown by Henrik and Wotan are genuine Ivory,
There are times when it is difficult to tell but in these two cases it is not.

Gary

This is were( EXPERIENCE ) comes to play... I did the old hot needle thing 30+ years ago ( ONCE ) To me it is a amateur hour type of thing to do.I have seen some nice things marked (ruined) by (THIS) test.. I can tell ivory by feel and look (easy).. But this is after doing many repairs and making replacement parts in bone, ivory and mammoth ivory on instruments and (other ) items.. Now as far as is this grip Ivory?? It more than likely is (after what Gary has said)and you sure as heck do not have to but a hot needle on it to prove it.Regards: James

One other thought - For me this grip reinforces the theory that all grips started white and overtime transformed into the various shades of yellow - orange & red we appreciate today.

Yes you are correct about grips changing color over time but not all were white in color when made... Here is a page from a original Solingen catalog...Yes I know this has been hashed over many times but this to me is very strong evidence on this touchy subject. Very hard to argue with original source documents. Regards: James

James is that the SMF catalog ?

Yes. And no they did not color the handle because the SMF wanted to.... Everything in the catalog I believe is correct.

LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE IS POSTING SOMETHING ON ALL OF THE DIFFERENT FORUM POSTS SITES AND SHUTTING THINGS DOWN !!

I had a simulated Ivory grip on a WKC Luft, sold it but still have pics,would post them if anyone wants to see but looked just like the one Fitzer posted on page 1, plaster core..Kevin.

DAMAST, I did ask Vern already concerning this. Vern: That user is a spammer. He and his posts were deleted, and all references will disappear when the forum index reloads.

Regards,

Degens, thank you!

Yes, there were/are also solid simulated ivory grips but they are relatively simple to recognize even from outside, without disassembling. They do have much more constant ivory-grain than real ivory has. That is because of the kind how these grips were manufactured, not comparable to natural grown ivory.
Regards,

No need to thank me but I do thank you very much for your support!

Up to Weitze´s dagger, as said, all These daggers with this grip configuration I own or had seen have (had) the small stamped squirrel mark. Naturally this is no hard fact that it is impossible that another mark could occur, like it now has happened. I did only mention the small mark because commonly this mark is looked at as a late mark and the production of a true ivory grip would be uncommon for those late times but there must be at least a small series.

I want to add that these certain grips are of best quality ivory, mine does show only the slightest age cracking, has a kind of polished surface and as already mentioned does resemble the form of the "normal" EICKHORN army dagger grip best.

Regards,

Here are some photos of what I believe to be a simulated ivory grip.

William Kramer

Plaster filled Trolon.Seiler

Sorry, no Trolon but Celluloid - plaster filled.
Regards,

BTW you have a "living" grip ......

Omg. I thought that was what I was seeing. Nice diagram of the play there, Wotan.

WOW, that a first for me.. dagger grip with an infestation...!! Kevin.

But, is the infestation period or was it post war added?

This is very important.

John

If the worm is 70+ years old (what I dare to doubt) it is period, otherwise it´s a postwar added exemplar.




Regards,

Very interesting worms! We like to drink them with our tequila here in Texas!

So check your plaster filled grips! Perhaps you gain some Tequilas today?



Regards,