UBB.threads
Posted By: WW2-Collector Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/20/2013 09:35 PM
This army is a recent acquisition - At this time I believe it to be a new undiscovered crossguard type. It is a very striking guard with many unique features. The eagles body the first set of feathers and the top wing lines are highly vaulted off the crossguard. The wreath and swastika are oversized in relation to the eagle. The head and body width is about the same. The crossguard has beautiful hand enhancement that follows through to the pommel and scabbard bands. The crossguard and pommel are manufactured of a lightweight base metal and the silver finish matches throughout the hilt and scabbard. The scabbard has two flush mount screws frequently seen on Voos army dagger production. The minty non tapered nickel plated blade has the single oval maker mark the third mark Voos used on army daggers. I believe this dagger was made around 1936-1937 If my memory serves me I have seem this guard one other time and it was on a Voos unfortunately I do not have a picture of it. I certainly would like to hear from the army collectors does anyone else has an example of this crossguard or incite to the company of manufacture ? I love this bird!













Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 12:35 AM
Tom, VERY unique guard here! That wreath and Swaz are HUGE!! Hand work is great, look at those wings! Really nice work to the scabbard bands too. I have not seen another like it, would love to see it in person to take in the 3D aspects! Real beauty of a blade to with one of Voos's most attractive marks. Congrats!! Kevin.

PS, How does the ferrel look? Common type?
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 02:33 AM
Its been brought to my attention I was incorrect about the single oval being the 3rd maker mark itís the fifth and last one Voos used so my date of manufacture must be incorrect as well I wonder what year Voos began to use the single oval mark ?
Posted By: Mikee Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 02:34 AM
Resembles a late Anton Wingen except for the wreath?
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 03:07 AM
Kevin thanks the ferrule looks common - nothing special I can see. Here is a picture with the portepee removed showing the ferrule and crossguard. I snapped this when I first received the dagger and never intended this picture for posting . I added the black background to make the picture more presentable for posting.

Attached picture Voos-Crossguard.jpg
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 03:29 AM
Originally Posted By: Mikee
Resembles a late Anton Wingen except for the wreath?

Mikee I certainly see a resemblance another army collector noted in an email a Wingen resemblance as well the eagle breast is vaulted like the Wingen type 1 not sure if the Wingen type 2 is vaulted as I do not own one?
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 03:36 AM
A few more shots of the guard from different angles. Again I never planned to post these but here they are in raw form.

Attached picture crossguard-1.jpg
Attached picture crossguard-2.jpg
Attached picture crossguard-3.jpg
Attached picture crossguard-4.jpg
Posted By: Mikee Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 05:45 AM
Tom,

I forgot to say,congratulations on another nice catch!..Interesting, the wreaths on my Army daggers measure aprox. 10,11,11.5 and 12mm across. What's the measurement on this "large wreath" type crossguard? Thanks.
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 07:22 AM
Last MM huh? Hard to believe that this level of handwork would exist in Voos's last efforts in Heer daggers? Maybe Voos didnt produce Heer daggers later in the period..period. This would mean that Voos changed its mark every year or even more frequently though! Kevin.
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 02:16 PM
What appears to be really interesting about this dagger is that the single oval Voos trademark is hardly ever found on daggers with a non-etched blade.
Most plain blade mid period Voos army daggers appear to have either the horizontal or perpendicular trademark shown below, even though the hilt fittings are normally the same Generic variety.

I am wondering whether the company reserved the use of the single oval TM for etched daggers only, even though Toms outstanding dagger above contradicts this theory?.

It would be really helpful if anyone with a Voos, etched or not, could post some pictures.

Attached picture voos4.jpg
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 03:00 PM
Degens:

If it helps, I have two Voos maker marks on my three Voos Luft2s.

The first mark is found on a plain blade and is the snake around stump with the name beside the stump.

The second mark is the single oval, found on both an etched blade and on a plain plated blade.

John

Attached picture MVC-270S.JPG
Attached picture TM Sgl Oval Etch.JPG
Attached picture Voos TM Single Oval.JPG
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 03:24 PM
John,
Thats interesting, I had not looked at Lufts, I am unable to find another plain blade army other than Toms with this trademark.
Was it a tough mark to source on a Luft and in your opinion, comparing your 1st stamped perpendicular trademarked dagger to the single oval plain bladed dagger, which piece looks earlier?.
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 05:28 PM
The easiest to find TM is the single oval on an etched blade.

The seocdn easiest, IMHO, is the perpendicular one.

I am looking for a Luft2 with a double oval mark and maybe one with the snake around stump with no oval.

I really can't decide which is earlier. Here are pics of the perpendicular one.

John

Attached picture Obverse Grip.JPG
Attached picture Obverse Pommel.JPG
Attached picture Obverse Crossguard.JPG
Attached picture Obverse.JPG
Attached picture Reverse.JPG
Attached picture Reverse Grip.JPG
Attached picture TM 1.JPG
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 05:30 PM
And, here are pics of the single oval.

John

Attached picture Obverse.JPG
Attached picture Reverse.JPG
Attached picture Obverse Grip.JPG
Attached picture Obverse Pommel.JPG
Attached picture Obverse Crossguard.JPG
Attached picture TM.JPG
Posted By: Landser Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 06:40 PM
That is a great x guard Tom & it is even better to see it in close-up. I`m surprised that the tang is not tapered and like my slant Puma I think it only just missed being so.
Posted By: dr73 Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 06:45 PM
I have to armies in my collection with the Voos maker mark. Pictures of the second one are not very good. When I find the time I'll take better pictures.

By the way, Tom your Voos dagger is fantastic!

Danny

Attached picture 04-small.jpg
Attached picture heer-voos1.jpg
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 07:16 PM
dr73, Could we get a look at the fittings on your two Voos Heeres? grin

JohnZ, Nice Voos Lufts! IMO I would give the nod to the non-oval marked one being earlier, but not much. Both have the early traits! Kevin.
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 09:58 PM
John and Danny,
Thanks for sharing your great daggers. The Lufts are gorgeous and very hard to tell which came first, Danny that looks to be a nice pair of armies, can we see the crossguards if possible. This maker mark is the one normally found on plain bladed examples. I am interested to know if either piece has Generic fittings. My guess is the lower one without the personalisation is Generic type "B" / Wingen ?.

Possibly the first as well but hard to tell without a shot of the scabbard.
Posted By: dr73 Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 10:46 PM
You are right about the crossguards. Both are the generic B type. The scabbard of the one with the personalization looks like an Eickhorn product. The one without the personalization I have to take out of the safe first. Will post that one later.

Attached picture 02.jpg
Attached picture 01.jpg
Attached picture heer-voos2.jpg
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 10:53 PM
No need Danny, the other scabbard is Wingen. Thank you very much for the pictures and for confirming the crossguards.
Nice hand enhancing to the wings on the 2nd dagger. smile
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:00 PM
14MM One of the first things I noticed was this oversized wreath.
Originally Posted By: Mikee
Tom,

I forgot to say,congratulations on another nice catch!..Interesting, the wreaths on my Army daggers measure aprox. 10,11,11.5 and 12mm across. What's the measurement on this "large wreath" type crossguard? Thanks.
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:07 PM
Originally Posted By: heers68
Last MM huh? Hard to believe that this level of handwork would exist in Voos's last efforts in Heer daggers? Maybe Voos didnt produce Heer daggers later in the period..period. This would mean that Voos changed its mark every year or even more frequently though! Kevin.


Kevin I was told this mark although the last Voos used dates to 36-37 so itís still fairly early certainly on the cusp of the hand finishing work going away and manufactures going to the guards that did not require any hand detailing. I always thought the Voos stamped marks were later but I donít scrutinize maker marks I collect by crossguard. Having said that I donít recall seeing another non etched single oval army? Seems to be scarce.
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Landser
That is a great x guard Tom & it is even better to see it in close-up. I`m surprised that the tang is not tapered and like my slant Puma I think it only just missed being so.


VB I was surprised as well certainly must have been close to the transition.
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:20 PM
John Z Ė Thank you for helping with the trademarks and some real beauties based on the fittings I agree with Kevin the non oval looks earlier
Danny-Thank you for showing your nice examples Love the hand enhanced crossguard thatís a first for me on this type guard generic B/Wingen
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:26 PM
John Z good luck finding this one !

Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:26 PM
Tom,
That is what I am trying to determine, if the stamped marks were before or after the single oval. If the single oval came first and stamped later, that would mean surely that Voos had a long run of producing only etched blade daggers.........unless they did use all three trademarks concurrently depending on whether the dagger had an etched blade.

The majority of Voos army daggers using either of the stamped or the single oval trademarks are normally fitted with Generic type / Wingen hilt fittings. Irrespective of the type of blade fitted.
Posted By: Landser Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:38 PM
Enhanced generic B/ Wingen. That is a first for me as well. Nice!
Degens, I see the logic of your thinking there.
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/21/2013 11:40 PM
I am glad someone does, had to read it twice myself laugh
Posted By: wotan Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 12:39 AM
Within my files I found at least one (I do have a lot of different VOOS plain blade armies in my files) which I think does resemble the first one shown here.
Itīs from an earlier thread 8perhaps gone to time) from or member Roy Caroll and was offered for sale in january 2006 here in the for sale section.
For sure a different dagger as it has a different (color, no hairliner) grip.
Unfortunately the pics arnīt larger.
Regards,

Attached picture a.JPG
Attached picture b.JPG
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 12:45 AM
Wotan,
Outstanding, another perfect match to the one that started this thread. I knew I had seen another somehwere. Well done on finding this one in the archives, and well done to Tom for finding a new un-recognised pattern.

I have to say, I never expected another one to be posted so soon.
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 01:26 AM
WOW thats a ringer for Tom's Voos Wotan! Well done.

Danny, wonder if one or both of your Voos Heers are tapered tang???

JohnZ, Is either or your Voos Lufts tapered tang?? I know that is rare in Lufts but I had a WKC in their earliest Luft fittings with a tapered tang! I have a Voos Heer blade with the longatudinal stamped(non oval)Voos mark that IS tapered tang.

Degens, Great info as usual, you are the guardguru!! Kevin.
Posted By: lakesidetrader Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 03:15 AM
Really great thread here guys.
Tom your pics are sooooooo good!!!
5 trade marks wow that is crazy. Tome nevr ever seen that one before.
Congrats, you just gotta love this hobby some days!!!
smile
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 03:42 AM
Well isnít that a beauty! Thank you Wotan Fantastic to see another example Jon I appreciate your research Kevin is right you are the guru I certainly listen and learn when you speak. I am not sure we will ever know who made this guard but the consensus leans towards a Wingen variation or perhaps another early Generic type. Voos used another early generic variety (Landser post that double oval beauty would ya) Paul its really fun some times isnít it I am looking forward to seeing everyone at the SOS and seeing what treasures await us!
Posted By: Landser Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 09:15 AM
This is really the most exciting thing that has happened for a long time. We have a new confirmed variation! It has certainly rekindled my interest.

Tom....as requested

Attached picture SDC14176.JPG
Attached picture SDC14172.JPG
Attached picture SDC14190.JPG
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 02:58 PM
VB now thatís a real nice army hard to beat this one Ė Thanks for posting
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 03:02 PM
Realy like the look of your double oval Landser!! That guard has a nice look.. Like to see more of that one, pommel, scabbard, etc. Real beauty there. Kevin.
Posted By: wotan Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 06:49 PM
Within my files I think I found one more dagger with the certain crossguard, here shown first.
It is from our member Gercolctor and was shown here in GDC in april 2008.
Unfortunately the pic is very small but I think we see enough to be able to compare.
We can say that on rare occasions VOOS did use this crossguard type "regularly".
Tom, your photographic skills are unbeatable. Wish I could do at least 10% of them.
It is the icing of the cake, when such a rare bird is pictured in such a tasteful, skillful manner.
Regards,

Attached picture DSC00384.JPG
Posted By: Landser Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 09:41 PM
Here as requested is the hilt showing the scabbard and pommel.

A very neat job was done here on the casting seam.

Attached picture SDC14161.JPG
Attached picture SDC14174.JPG
Attached picture SDC14157.JPG
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/22/2013 11:24 PM
Wotan,
I think that just about confirms that Toms is not a one off variation of another recognised pattern. Three different daggers all with what looks to be exactly the same crossguard.

I wonder where those two daggers reside now, I would love to see better pictures.

Landser,
That voos is a real beauty, it must have been real close to having a slant grip, not that that matters in the slightest. Great example of the double oval trademark on the blade as well smile.
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/23/2013 01:19 AM
THANKS for the extra pics Landser. That Voos is just BEAUTIFUL!! I cant tell you how impressed I am by the detail and look of the hand work, grip and patina..CONGRATS on this dagger. Please let me know if you ever want to move it! Seriously! Kevin.

PS, Are the fittings brass based or light? Is the tang tapered??
Posted By: Landser Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/23/2013 06:41 PM
Brass based & tapered kevin wink
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/24/2013 03:23 AM
Still my beating heart! I'm in LOVE!! smile. Kevin.
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/24/2013 02:02 PM
Thank You Ė Itís nice to see another example you really took this topic to the next level by posting those other two examples. Interesting this 2nd example is fitted with what looks like a generic scabbard this could be another clue to the time frame this guard was used.

Originally Posted By: wotan
Within my files I think I found one more dagger with the certain crossguard, here shown first.
It is from our member Gercolctor and was shown here in GDC in april 2008.
Unfortunately the pic is very small but I think we see enough to be able to compare.
We can say that on rare occasions VOOS did use this crossguard type "regularly".
Tom, your photographic skills are unbeatable. Wish I could do at least 10% of them.
It is the icing of the cake, when such a rare bird is pictured in such a tasteful, skillful manner.
Regards,
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/24/2013 02:05 PM
Originally Posted By: heers68
Still my beating heart! I'm in LOVE!! smile. Kevin.


Me too thatís one fine dagger I have been trying to talk him out of that one for some time !
Posted By: Degens Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/24/2013 02:27 PM
Tom,
That third one from Gercolector, I do not think that scabbard was originally matched to the dagger. Could be wrong but pot metal Generic scabbard bands are normally very late.
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/24/2013 02:49 PM
Jon thanks I was wondering about a mismatch? Was not sure as I thought Voos may have used some generic scabbards.
Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 01/24/2013 03:34 PM
Tom and Jon, I was thinking the same thing when I saw that scabbard, mismatch...
Posted By: Rainman Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 02/17/2013 05:02 AM
VERY unique guard here!
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 04/28/2013 03:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Degens
What appears to be really interesting about this dagger is that the single oval Voos trademark is hardly ever found on daggers with a non-etched blade.
Most plain blade mid period Voos army daggers appear to have either the horizontal or perpendicular trademark shown below, even though the hilt fittings are normally the same Generic variety.

I am wondering whether the company reserved the use of the single oval TM for etched daggers only, even though Toms outstanding dagger above contradicts this theory?.

It would be really helpful if anyone with a Voos, etched or not, could post some pictures.




Degens,
I don't know if this is mid-period or what but it has a tapered tang and slant grip. It's so black that I had to take it into direct sunlight so you can see the hilt. -Serge-






Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 04/28/2013 03:12 AM



Posted By: Kevin (heers68) Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 04/28/2013 05:23 PM
Looks like an early one to me Serge! What a beauty too! That patina is really something.. WELL DONE! Kevin.
Posted By: Craig Gottlieb Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 05/15/2013 02:03 PM
The best crossguard has to be the Alcoso High Lift.



It's currently in my auction:

http://www.cgmauctions.com/detail.asp?id=2889&n=Army-Dagger-with-High-Lift-Crossguard
Posted By: Landser Re: Voos Heer Unique Crossguard - 05/15/2013 07:06 PM
Serge that is one beautiful dagger! Actually fantastic!
If I could find just one more like that I might even start collecting them again.
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