Well, I am going out on a limb and assuming that you will want to see a thread on Luft2 maker marks.
I will start with the letters A (Alcoso),B (Buchel) and C (Clemen & Jung) and post some marks.
If you are interested, maybe we can go all the way to the letter Z (Zeitler).
I have 4 Alcoso maker marks, and here they are:
ACS Script letters
ACS Block Letters
And, the late AWS version
I have only seen the one Rudolf Buchel mark
And here is the Clemen & Jung
The Clemen & Jung has the crown/shield on the obverse.
I will stop for now, and if interest is there, I can continue with the letter E (Eickhorn, Esser & Co) and F (Fridericus).
John
Yes John please do. BTW your photography has come a looooooong way!!
This is the kind of thread I book mark and refer back to. Thanks for sharing.
Today, I will post my 4 (yes 4) Eichorn TM variations and finish off the letter E with an Esser & Co
The first Eickhorn is what is probably a very early production 35-41 mark on a plated blade:
The neat thing about this is the waffen amp stamp on the obverse of the blade (it is this that convinces me of its very early production):
Then, there is the standard 35-41 mark with squirrel holding sword:
Later, there was a small stamped version of the 35-41 mark:
And, finally, the late over shoulder mark used by Eickhorn:
Esser & Co is commonly thought of as a distributor, not as a manufacturer. But, in this case, Esser & Co is the only mark on the blade, so it is a legitimate TM variation.
I know of at least two versions of the Fridericus TM, but have only this one.
I believe that Janos of this forum has a variation of this mark in his possession. Maybe, we could ask him to post it here for reference purposes. And, if anyone has versions of the previous marks that are not pictured here, I ask that they please post them into this thread.
Please do not post pictures of later letters until they show up here to keep things semi-organized.
I will be posting the letter H soon (today or tomorrow)... Hack, Henckels, Hast&Uhthoff, Gebr Heller, F Herder, RA Herder, Holler, Horster.
John
Fantastic tread John.Keep em coming
John,
great thread, congrats!
Here is the photo of the Fridericus TM variant.
Your 2nd Luft collection is amazing!
Janos
Hi Janos.Nice to see ur Fridericus again
Josef Hack, an uncommon maker of Luft2s (and Armies), is represented by two maker marks.
The first one is the more commonly known fish in an oval mark:
The second J Hack mark is the same fish, but no oaval:
Hast & Uhthoff is also known as a distributor, but this first maker mark is also the only mark on the blade.
The second version of the Hast & Uhthoff is this one, and it has a mark on the obverse. See next picture.
The obverse to the above maker mark is a rat tail squirrel, indicating the Eickhorn firm:
I also know of at least two J Henckels maker marks, this is the first one:
And this is the second Henckels TM that I have:
Gebr Heller, Marienthal is commonly known as the balloon man for obvious reasons:
F Herder is the crossed keys TM
RA Herder version 1
RA Herder version 2
Holler
E&F Horster in version 1
E&F Horster in the same TM with Patent Pending mark:
That's all for today.. tomorrow, we will do Klaas, and the two Krebs families.
John
Hi! My not so common Rich A. Herder variant, Great thread!
I have two Klaas Luft2s, the so called 'funeral' dagger and a plain jane Luft2. Both have this trademark:
I have two CJ Krebs, a small and a large mark.
The small mark looks like this:
The large CJ Krebs:
I know of only one PD Krebs mark, the lobster:
PD Luneschloss:
I know of several E Pack maker marks, but have only this one in my collection.
Tom Kendall has shown a very rare Pack maker mark at some point on a thread here and I am hoping that he will post that mark here as well for our reference and enjoyment.
The last shot for this session is a Richard Plumacher TM.
BTW, Nacho, that is very nice. I am glad that people are finding this of some interest. I know that when I started thinking about collecting Luft2s by maker mark, I could find only a few references to the different makers. The first place I looked was in Tom Wittman's Luftwaffe book and I found some very good information there. But, it was not complete. I found more on various GDC threads and am hoping to put it all together into one thread here, along with pictures of what these marks are supposed to look like.
More to come once I have taken some more pictures (Puma, Spitzer, Stocker, Seilheimer).
John
Puma or Lauterjung & Sohne (not Lauterjung & Co) has the head of a puma as its logo. I have two versions of their TM to show you.
The first is the one with the cat's head in a diamond:
The other Puma TM had the cat's head, but no diamond.
A. Schuttlehofer has the picture of two crossed hobby horses on their TM.
Paul Seilheimer has two maker marks pictured here.
The first one is the intertwined P & S initials.
The second TM is the Seilheimer dog with sword in teeth mark.
C Gustav Spitzer has a TM with a prancing lion:
Wow what a collection very nice
SUCH AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!
Thank you!
Johnny
Thanks, guys. We are not finished yet.
Tom, can you please post your Pack TM, the one without the Siegfried Waffen around the arch?
I am hoping that those of you with TM variations that are other than what is in this thread so far could post yours. I would really like to see all known Luft2 TM variations pictured in this thread.
John
Here it is -This is the only 2nd luft I have seen with this trademark. The blade is nickel plated.
Tom, I just love that. If you ever decide to part with it, I could find a good home for it in the frozen north
On we go to Stocker & Co, also known as SMF. This company, along with Paul Weyersberg seem to have only all their produced Luft2s with waffen amp stamps.
Lauterjung & Co used the trade name Tiger and the image of the striped cat in their TM.
The first one I have to show you is the very small TM:
Then there is the intermediate size one, look at the letters in the name, Tiger:
Then there is the larger sized one... again look at the letters in 'Tiger':
Emil Voos is famous as a maker of etched blades for armies and Lufts and, even on unmarked blades, their etch is sought after.
I have two examples of the Voos TM on plain, but plated, blades.
The first one is the unadorned snake coiled around the tree stump with the name beside the image:
The second is the same image but within a single oval.
Until I ran across this blade, I had never seen nor heard of G Weyersberg & Sohne (is that Gottfried?) as a maker of Luft2s.
Paul Weyersberg is the only other Luft2 maker that always seems to have a waffen amp stamp on their blades.
But, let's not forget Max Weyersberg or WMW.
The first mark is the name only:
The second WMW maker mark consists of the words WMW Waffen.
There is a third mark consisting of the letters WMW intertwined and inside of an oval. Maybe, someone could post one of those here.
WKC, or Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie, is shown here in the most commonly seen version of their famous knight's head logo:
Anton Wingen Jr, or AW Jr, also produced blades under the mark of Othello.
There are several versions, I believe of their AW Jr logo, the one with a knight standing holding a sword by his side. This is the most commonly found one:
The last one that I have to show you of my maker marked Luft2s is that from the Viennese manufacturer, Ludwig Zeitler.
Zeitler made blades for the Austrian armed forces and, after the Anschluss, made blades for the Third Reich.
I know that there are at least three variations of their TM from a previous thread here on GDC.
I only have the one, a two line inscription of the name:
Well, guys, that's it for my TMs.
I am missing the following makers (and hope that some of you could post their marks here):
Chromolit
Arthur Evertz (AES)
Gebr Heller, Schmalkalden (the anchor)
Christianswerk
Aug Mertens
Undine (Kuno Ritter)
I have also heard that the following may exist, or may simply be the creation of our ingenious friends from what used to be behind the Iron Curtain:
I S Wolfertz
Klitterman & Moog
Aesculap
I also know that there are many variations to the marks posted in this thread. I would love to see them all.
This was fun.
John
JOHN,, VERY IMPRESSIVE TOP NOTCH COLLECTION AND WITH GREAT INFORMATION,,THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO INFORM US..............DAVE H
WOW what a fantastic collection and thread
thank you so much for sharing this with us
Sean
Wonderful thread. Congratulations on a wonderful, and very focused, collection.
John,
Thanks for posting your stupendous collection of Lufts, which I believe are rivaled only by your collection of etched bayonets. A great thread & one that's taught a number of us something. I wish you good luck in finding the rarest of the rare.
JOHN, Here is a pic of a EVERTZ 2nd LUF.
A fantastic stunning collection of luft2 u got John.
Thanks for the time and info in this superb tread
Thanks guys and thank you TripleT.
Let's keep them coming.
John
Hey John
I wonder where you got those nice daggers
I like the Hack's
Bob:
Many of the current rare marks came from Washington state. You might remember some of them
.
Thank you,
John
Yes Sir, I do
It looks like you are gathering some very nice ones. Did you get my email?
Very nice John
Thanks for sharing your goodies!
Bob
Glad to see you back!
PVON
JohnZ the Klitterman and Moog may use the KLIHASO trade mark that I showed on a Heer dagger a while back
Just curious what does AWS stand for in the late Alcoso trademark?
Paul:
ACS was, I believe, the initials for Alexander Coppel Stahlwaren.
In 1936, the two Coppel brothers, Carl Gustav and Dr Alexander, were forced out of the company and only the non-Jewish Karl Reiche was allowed to stay as a partner in the new company. This allowed the NS party to buy from ACS.
In 1941, the name was changed to Alcoso Werk Stahlwaren, or AWS.
This info came out of the Fisher Quick reference Guide.
John
Very impressive display of fine blades.
Congratulation John.
Go, go, go Canada.
In the thread above, I talked about and we saw a variation of the Fridericus TM. Well, I was lucky enough to convince Janos that this dagger belonged on a wall in Canada. I managed to pry it out of his drunk hands after the Wine Festival we attended together in Budapest on my recent trip there.
Here is the TM
Here is a picture of the two maker marks side by side, sort of.
The top one is the new one, the bottom one is the one that I posted way earlier.
Another view of the two.
Note the different fonts used, especially the differences in the capital letters, the 'S' and 'F'.
Thank you, Janos.
quote:
Well, I was lucky enough to convince Janos that this dagger belonged on a wall in Canada. I managed to pry it out of his drunk hands after the Wine Festival we attended together in Budapest on my recent trip there.
Oh, so that's why I can't find it anywhere here!!!
Congarts John, your 2nd Luft collection is amazing.
Janos
Just before Christmas, I received the following Luft2. It is a Horster, without the ovals. I have seen this mark on bayonets, but not on Luft2s before.
It is in pretty poor condition, but I had to get it for the TM alone.
Here is the TM.
Here are the three Horster TMs that I now have:
no oval
oval with Ges Gesch
oval
But, this dagger also had another unique feature: it had a distributor logo on the other side.
When I decided to buy this, I only knew about this distributor mark, the Horster mark on the other side was hidden by the crossguard. When I got it at home and needed to take it apart so that I could clean it and get it ready for taking pictures, I noticed the TM... boy was I pleased.
The distributor is Fahnen-Reuter of Munster, not a commonly found one at all, IMHO.
Santa was good this year.
John
John,
I'd say Santa's been good to you for a couple of years, I'm tired of getting a lump of coal in my stockins
Billy:
How come your lump of coal looks just like a sawback fire bayonet?
Mine looks like a crappy Luft2.
Why aren't you partying on this fine New Year's eve?
John
quote:
Originally posted by JohnZ:
But, this dagger also had another unique feature: it had a distributor logo on the other side.
When I decided to buy this, I only knew about this distributor mark, the Horster mark on the other side was hidden by the crossguard. When I got it at home and needed to take it apart so that I could clean it and get it ready for taking pictures, I noticed the TM... boy was I pleased.
The distributor is Fahnen-Reuter of Munster, not a commonly found one at all, IMHO.
Santa was good this year.
John
Congrats a lot John with that rare dagger
Hey J,
Ah it's all relative my friend, you're right that I had a good December. It's been feast or famine lately.
No partying for me I'n afraid, too much of an old fart to be out on "amateur night"
John, didn't know about that unique for a dagger horster mark, otherwise...
but congrats for another good shot
Most of all,
Happy and peaceful New Years 2010 for all of you young and old guys!
John another nice edition to your luft collection quite rare as well.
Congrats John,realy nice pices
John, you have an incredible collection of luft daggers alone. A great reference for someone interested in collecting by maker!
Good hunting in 2010.
This past week was quite a change from the desert of the past year.
I picked up two Luft2 marks that are new to my collection.
First up is a Holler. There was a discussion of Holler TMs in a recent thread on Heers.
In the discussion, it was mentioned that Holler had three different TMs, one with 11 ticks or bars in the thermometer, one with 17 ticks and one with 19 ticks.
I quickly ran to my Luft2s to see what I had, and it was this one, a 17 tick maker mark.
This past week, I received a variant on this mark, the 11 tick version. It was on an average blade in a below average scabbard with a chipped grip. But, it was the mark that I wanted.
Here it is:
The second maker mark variant that I received this week was an E Pack. The most commonly seen Pack mark is the large Siegfried Waffen in the arch.
Here it is:
Actually the one I am showing is Tom's army (sorry Tom, I posted this by mistake, but it is beautiful). My Luft2 version of this is here:
The one that I received this week is the small Siegfried with the name of E Pack spelled out underneath the hammering man.
There is a version of this mark that uses the initials EP&S (is this found on Luft2s) and there is another variation that I have only seen in Tom's collection.
But here is the one that I have:
John, a beautiful couple of additions to your amazing 2nd luft collection. Very nice indeed.
Gary
John what a collection of 2nd lufts! I would love to see more of the Pack with the early mark these are very rare.
Thank you, guys.
Tom, I am starting another thread on this Luft2 by itself. Pictures will be there.
John
This week, I received what looks like a variation on the Clemen & Jung TM.
As you all probably know, the C&J mark is really two marks, one on each side of the blade.
First up is the Crown and Z usually appearing on the obverse.
On the reverse, is the name of Clemen&Jung as shown
Why is this a variation? Well, the other mark I have for this maker does not exhibit the word, Solingen.
And it doesn't look like the Solingen mark had faded away or was only lightly stamped.
John
JohnZ, I too have the C&J with the "Solingen" under Clemen& Jung. This Dagger appears to be quite early, judging by its construction and fittings. This dagger also has a very odd annomoly, an extra leather buffer inside the ferrel!! Do either of yours have this? Also,does your "Clemen&Jung" only dagger feature later fittings? Wondering if these marks are an early and late indicator? Thanks, Kevin.
THE EXTRA Buffer & MM
Gentlemen,
These maker marks & variations are a feast for the eyes. It's great to see others with a passion for the little thing, those slight & often subtle variations in marks & parts that, for me at least, keep the hobby exciting & ever interesting.
John,
What more do you have tucked away that you haven't shown us yet?
Here are more shots of my C&J with Solingen.
Taken apart.
Closeup of the TM and a bit of the tang.
The Grip
I just picked up a variation on the C Gustav Spitzer TM. I knew that there were two variations of this mark, the so-called large and small versions. What I didn't know is that the one that I had posted earlier was the small variation and that the larger variation had some distinctive script and logo differences over and above the size.
You can see the differences in the side by side comparisons.
Look at the script, look at the dot between the letters 'S' of Solingen and 'C' of C Gustav and see the differences between the lions... not just size, right?
John
More comparison pics
John
John well done ! whats on the list next !
Tom:
I think that I have found a variation on the small Pack TM. I am waiting for the dagger to verify it... if I am correct, it will be posted here.
This thing never ends, does it?
John
When's the book come out?
I just picked up a variation on the C Gustav Spitzer TM. I knew that there were two variations of this mark, the so-called large and small versions. What I didn't know is that the one that I had posted earlier was the small variation and that the larger variation had some distinctive script and logo differences over and above the size.
You can see the differences in the side by side comparisons.
Look at the script, look at the dot between the letters 'S' of Solingen and 'C' of C Gustav and see the differences between the lions... not just size, right?
John
Very interesting John. You need to have a "keen" eye in this buisness
keep up the good work my friend.
Hope to see you in September
Take care.
Regards LH
Here is my Spitzer.
LH:
That is a very nice Spitzer.
Yes, I too am lookign forward to September in Norway (or is it Finland, ha ha).
John
I came home yesterday from a trip to Toronto and brought back with me a variation on the small E Pack Siegfried wielding hammer TM.
Look at the comparison photos.. the feet are different, the apron is different and the belt flowing from the apron is very different.
While not as striking nor as obvious as the TM shown by Tom Kendall earlier on his variation, I think that this version differs enough to make it collectible by itself.
John
Hi JohnZ, here is a Christianswerk maker mark,nats
Nats:
Nice... I want it, I want it...
I don't have one of those babies.
John
John that’s great can we see the rest of the dagger.
Tom:
I will post the dagger on another thread.. I think that I want to keep this with TMs only.
Maybe tomorrow?
John
This seems to be a Pack year for me.
You have seen this TM on a superb Luft2 that WWIICollector has posted in this thread.
For a long time, I was worried that the only example of this mark was in Tom's collection and that I would never be able to find another.
But, after a heads up from Tom, I did manage to get this example. Now there are two... but Tom's is way better condition.
Here it is,
John
John what a rare 2nd luft I only have seen two mine and yours congratulations on adding this to your collection.
Nice to see yours is a nickel plated blade too no doubt a luft blade!!
Here is my latest Luft2 addition.
The TM is quite nice but it is on a weird blade with all kinds of lines and spotting.
John
Suggest some steel wool might clean that up a bit buddy!
You might have to grind that one down to get rid of those funny lines.
Gary
I will try an SOS pad first... oh.. maybe I will wait until the SOS and get more opinions...
John
I just received this Tiger ... looks like a variation TM without the pictured cat and with a slightly different font used.
The first picture is the new TM, the second and third are ones comparing this to the known and accepted mark it is most similar to.
John
Great collection John !
-serge-
A pretty good handle.....Thanks for the info.
I have an army with the tiger mark without the tiger. Yours is the only other one I have seen. BTW your collection is amazing.
Phil
Thank, guys!
Hans: Can you post pictures of your Heer Tiger? I would like to compare it to the Luft2 above.
John
John,
The mark looks the same as yours.
Hans:
Very interesting. I wasn't convinced that my mark was not a light stamping that was somehow altered and the Tiger erased. There is a flat spot that looks a little off on my blade.
Seeing yours and how it is very much the same as mine, now makes me believe that we both have something special.
Is it possible that both our daggers were altered the same way? Or was the TM strike a two part strike, one part for the cat and one part for the writing? This could explain what we see.
John
Never seen that Tiger mark before on a Heer or Luft. It's almost like they forgot to stamp the Tiger.
7 trademark variations in total, somebody was either very fussy or had too much time on their hands.
Great thread BTW.
I personally think the two part or even three strike theory makes perfect sense, especially as some of the marks appear very similar with the exception of font spacing.
The other day, I was sitting around watching Being Human (the British version, way better than the remake) and started cleaning and Renwaxing some of my Lufts. I noticed that some of the special order items (etched, Damascus and artificial Damascus blades) have trademarks slightly different from the plain blade versions.
I see three versions of the CJ Krebs, crown over K, TM.
There is a large double oval, a small single oval and a large single oval version.
Here they are together.
The large single oval is on a double etched Voos-style blade.
Alcoso has 4 TMs that appear on Luft2 blades and at least one other that is too early for Luft2s, but was used on Heers.
The Alcoso in script letters is slightly different on the two blades that I have, one plain and on artificial Damascus.
And, last, I had posted two variations of the Fridericus TM. I now think that I have a third on a Damascus blade. Look at the dots over the 'i's.
I don't understand why relatively small manufacturers, like Fridericus or Zeitler, have multiple versions of their mark while large manufactures, like Stocker, have only one.
If things go well at the SOS, I should have a couple more variations to show you in early March.
John
So, even though you guys are ignoring me, I will continue on with my TM variations postings.
The Klaas-meister himself, Herr Paul Hogle, found this Klaas Tm for me... neither of us has seen this mark on a Luft2 before this.
I believe that there are 4 possible Klaas TMs:
1) the commonly seen kissing cranes over the name Robert Klaas Solingen,
2) as above but without the city of Solingen being named,
3) kissing cranes by themselves only (probably seen on bayonets)
4) the words Robert Klaas in a circle around the kissing cranes.
I have shown the first one before but will include it in this post.
Here is my latest (sort of an SOS warm up, I guess),
John
John you certainly have my attention now that Klaas with the circle mark must be super rare first That I remember seeing – Fantastic – I have high hopes for the SOS maybe I can point out the rare lufts I see for you and you can point me to the slant army daggers !. I do look forward to meeting you guys at the show!
hello all-i bought a small collection a few months ago this minty luft was part of it. i kept it-to nice to sell, maybe later. i have never seen this mm on a luft so i think it is rare bird. i could be wrong. please tell me if i am. thanks paul.
Tom:
I am looking forward to seeing you at the show... I get in mid to late afternoon on Wednesday and will be looking to bug people as soon as I get there... please give me a call and we can start early.
Paul:
ASSO is not a rare, but is a scarce maker to find on Luft2s. I have seen a couple of those over the past 3 to 4 years, but yours looks really nice. You guys may correct me if I am wrong, but I would (and apologies to Mike) consider it a 7 or so on the Luft2 McSarr scale, if such exists.
John
Going back to the question of how a Tiger TM could appear that only has the word 'Tiger' and not the pictured cat on it.
There was a dagger for sale on a web site that has the words t the mark seemingly double stamped while the cat itself is only stamped once with no doubling of the lines. This dagger is no longer there so I cannot give you a link to it.
If we look at dress bayonets produced by Tiger, we will find that they are one of the few makers who put a mark on both sides of the blade, the cat on one side and the words on the other. This shows that Tiger had two types of their maker mark stamps, one with the cat and the words in some configuration (see the varieties above) and the other set with separate stamps for the parts of the mark.
So, between the two daggers pictured here, with missing cats and the one pictured for sale with a doubling of the words, I think that we can assume that, in certain cases, the wrong stamp, the one for bayonets, may have been inadvertently used on these daggers.
For your information, here are some shots of bayonets with Tiger markings on both sides of the blade.
John
Someone's up early this morning
Interesting theory John & something that's certainly a possibility IMHO. I remember noticing some variants in Tiger marks on fire bayonets. Let me try to find the differences & see if I notice any anomalies.
John I do like that Klaas. Very typical construction. The wire wrap, that pommel and the JLL hand-enhanced crossgard eagle. I've only seen that crossguard on Klaas and I think Voos.
This is turning into an excellent reference thread...
Correction with 11000+ views it's already being used as a reference thread.
And here is my Gustav Spitzer
A while back I took a group picture of some of my 2nd pattern daggers. It was not until I looked at them all in a "V" that I noticed one of the grips had the twist going from right to left. I checked the dagger over and could see no signs of it being messed with. It is in a stash somewhere and when I find it I will post some better pictures if interested. When I posted it here last time it did not raise many comments. I will try and find the link.
Seems that I have no posts....odd!! Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.
John,
Your knowledge of these trademarks is great. Vern and I are awarding you a "Great Thread" badge that is well earned.
Best regards, Dave
Dave and Vern:
Thank you.
More TMs to come very soon. I am waiting for the mailperson (actually in my case it is a mailman) to arrive with a couple of new ones.
John
Well, boys and girls of Luftwaffe land, I have a couple of new arrivals from the SOS that finally showed up on my doorstep.
First up is a new TM for the JohnZ wall, the Hans Kolping beer mug.
Here are two shots of the mark.
Earlier in this thread, we talked about the various Carl Julius Krebs trademarks.
We looked at a large double oval and a small single oval. There is also an etched version of the single oval on a Voos-style etched blade.
In order of etch size, the largest is the double oval mark and is the first one pictured here.
The next one pictured was a small single oval TM.
The latest arrival is a large single oval.
I also show pics of the single vs double oval and the two single ovals so that you can better see the differences.
John
John that large etched Krebs must be very rare do you think it is the earliest of the marks?
Tom:
The mark I see the most often on Krebs blades is the small single oval. As to dating them, I cannot.
Fisher shows some other single and double oval Krebs TMs where the differences from the ones I show here are all in the pictures of the crowns... and these are supposedly found on daggers. So, more things for me to look for.
John
Back around page 7 of this thread, I showed you a 2 line TM from Zeitler Vienna. Subsequent to that, we saw pictures of a single line Zeitler, Wien TM, both etched and stamped.
Well, this weekend another version of the Zeitler TM arrived in sunny Calgary.
This is a two line version, but has the name, Zeitler, in an arch above the word Wien.
It is a curiosity to me why a small maker, like Zeitler, would have multiple TMs... at least 4 that I know of, while other much more prolific makers like SMF or Weyersberg would have only one.
Here are pics of the arched Zeitler and a comparison shot of the straight line version.
John
John,
I have never seen this version of ZEITLER mark before!!!
It must be very unique.
Congratulation my friend!
Janos
John another ultra rare variation congratulations.
Just in from Tom Johnson is this, the most common Zeitler maker mark, in my opinion.
I still don't understand how a small, cottage maker like Zeitler would have 4 different TMs.
Here is my third mark, the single line Zeitler to go with my two liner and with the arched version just above.
John
Hello John,
I seem to remember those! You have a great collection
Bob
Bob:
Thank you. I now have 65 different TMs on Luft2 daggers. And still looking for about 20 more.
John
Most informative thread ever, especially for maker mark variations. The last book I read mentioned "here are some variations on maker marks" and had photos of only 20 maker marks.
Anyhoo...here is one more pic.
Spacey:
Here are all my Tiger Tms.
The first one, like yours, is the large tiger with block lettering.
The second one is a small tiger with block lettering.
The third is the large tiger with script lettering. You can see the difference between block and script by comparing the 'T' in 'Tiger'.
The fourth one is a little contentious since it is script lettering but no Tiger. Was the tiger left off or was it erased?
John
Here is the Peter Dan Krebs lobster mark on an artificial Damascus blade.
John
I don't pretend to be an expert on these things, but have noticed quite a few Krebs damascus and "artificial" damascus blades have surfaced lately, while they were all but unheard of not too long ago.
This is such an interesting thread, Thanks John for your enthusiasm, I could never get bored looking at all your daggers.
Cheers
Gary
Thanks Gary... I love this stuff, too. Can't you tell?
Grumpy, I agree that a lot of these are floating around. On the one hand, one assumes that these semi rare items, artificial and real Damascus, are surfacing due to their owners wanting to cash in on the relatively high prices for non controversial pieces. I myself have sold some pretty rare items (like my plain bladed Honour SS) in order to concentrate on my TM collection.
Artificial Damascus is an etch pattern and this one looks exactly like the one pictured in Wittman's Luft book on page 307. And, I got this from Tom, who should know his stuff in regards to Lufts, Navies and Heers.
John
John,
I love that Krebs! A beautiful example certainly worthy of your never boring collection.
Just arrived, here is a variation of the WKC TM.
This one has the large lettering making up the word 'Solingen'.
For comparison, I include the mark with the small lettering.
John
Here is a recent pickup from the SOS.
Max Weyersberg used several TMs, most notably the one we see most often is the WMW Waffen mark.
I managed to finally acquire one mark that I had been salivating over for a long time.
Here is the mark on a double oval.
I also show the other marks that I have on Luft2s.
John
That is the coolest WMW mark John! Lets see the rest of that early bird! Congrats! Did you get it at the SOS?? Kevin.
Well done very rare grouping
The Max Weyersberg came to me at the SOS.
I just returned from a very nice, but a bit long trip to Europe. My last week of the trip, we stayed in Budapest and, as we do every time we go there, we met with Janos of this forum and his lovely family. We had some great wines and some amazing palinka, Hungary's very fine answer to schnapps.
During our version of show and tell, I managed to convince Janos that this dagger really, really belongs in Canada.
So, here is my latest TM addition to my modest Luftwaffe collection.
Carl Wusthof is not known as a maker of Luft2s. They made SAs HJs and are listed as a rare maker of Heers.
John
John, this is a truly amazing thread and a more amazing collection you have,it's going to keep me occupied for many may hours
thank's for a brilliant reference thread,
Ronnie
I started to read this thread and became mesmerised by the variety and scope of just what starting a collection can involve. When I began to collect I simply picked up items as they appeared totally unaware that there was such a complex and interesting history behind each one. At that time a dagger was a dagger and I all looked for was condition and pretty colours !!
Then I met Gary and few fellow collectors at my first ever US show, that was an eye opener. I bought books, joined forums, met and spoke to fellow collectors and broadened my knowledge base. I even began to visit fairs and shows, which I had never done before.
Despite having collected for a while now I was never going to have the time to dig deep into the hobby. The field was to vast and complex. Real life was always in the way and my collection had never been documented.
Threads like this one and my fellow GDC members have inspired me to take a better look at what I have. To document and share my collection where possible. Today I took a look at some of my Luftwaffe daggers in a different light.
It is thanks to people like JohnZ that this hobby continues to facinate me and as I approach a more relaxed time of life I will endeavour to rise to the challange and be a better collector.
Frank
Gentlemen,
applause. What an informative thread. Thank you.
Rgds;
Hermann
I agree with Hermann & Frank, it's threads like this that continue to keep the hobby interesting for me. Incredible the amount of minute differences in manufacturers' logos, if one wants to go through the trouble of finding each & every one. Seems John's come pretty close
Well done John!
Thank you, guys. It is feedback like yours that makes me continue this thread. Knowing that I am helping others learn, as others have helped me, is what keeps me going.
While not a new TM, this is my latest, an upgrade to one that I already have shown you.
It is from a Henckels Luft2, the one with the twins and the writing across the blade. And, such nice condition, too.
Thank you, Tom K.
John
I recognize that Henckels John! Brought it out of the woodwork a few years ago and passed it on to my friend Tom, the blade was turned around the other way when I found it. Glad to see one from my past has entered your fine collection! I have pictures of it before I wiped the dust and dirt off it, be happy to share them with you if you like. Kevin.
Kevin I knew you would recognize the Henckels it’s a great looking dagger tuff letting it go but I am convincing myself I have to much stuff and trying to focus on the early army daggers.
Yes, it is an upgrade that I purchased from Tom... it replaces a poorer conditioned one that I had found on e-ban several years back.
Kevin, any pictures would be appreciated.. here or send to my e-mail
jsfzeller@hotmail.com
John
Most of us can recognize the small single oval CJ krebs TM... the crown over a 'cursive' K.
I have been lucky enough to find 4 variation on this Krebs TM.
Shown previously, were a large and a small single oval mark, as well as a large double oval.
Today, just arrived, is this small double oval mark.
To compare, I also show the two single ovals and the two double ovals.
I would never have imagined that a relatively small manufacturer like CJ Krebs would use so many TM variations, when a huge Luft2 maker like SMF only used one.
John
John, it is amazing!
What do you think: 4 different marks means 4 periods of producing? Can you make a chronology of the marks (early-mid-late)?
Janos
When I took the daggers apart, I found the following:
- small double oval TM - tapered tang
- large double oval TM - wouldn't come apart
- small single oval TM - tang marked with a '+' inside of a square
- large single oval TM - no markings or anything unusual.
Based on this, I would guesstimeate the chronology of marks as above, with the small double oval as the first one used.
Anyone have nay other ideas?
John
There are a few maker marks that exist in very small quantities. They may be the result of some very small makers building a few daggers to try to get into the lucrative Luft2 contracts that were available as part of the Nazi rebuilding efforts. These daggers would be made up of parts and fittings bought from other larger makers.
Then there is the rumour out there that some modern manufacturers located in the old Eastern Europe countries (the Czech Republic is oft mentioned) that are creating one off new makers using templates and stamps from these small cottage manufacturers.
I have several maker marks on Luft2 daggers that are not found in any list of Luft2 manufacturers.
Here is a new one to me (btw, most of these unlisted makers were purchased by me at no or only a very small premium over the more common makers or no maker varieties... thus arguing against these being made up to deceive and defraud collectors.
An etched Malsch & Ambron on a plated blade (the dagger has SMF fittings).
John
Here is my latest, an SOS pickup.
The maker mark is a lot closer to the ones we see one SAs for this maker than the above MalsCh & Ambron mark.
I have heard rumours that this mark exists on Luft2s, but I thought that it was just a rumour.
John
I have been searching for this for quite a while. Recently, this mark has appeared in this thread on an early Heer dagger by Tom K.
Not quite an SOS purchase, my good friend Stingray found this a couple of weeks before the show and gave me a good heads up.
There are three Holler used maker marks on Heers and on Luft2s.
The first mark is the one with 19 ticks on the thermometer on the right hand side. This is the earliest mark used by Holler on Heers and Luft2s.
The second mark is the 17 tick mark and the last mark is the 11 tick.
John
A very interesting thread which I learned a lot from. Didn't dare to count the posted maker marks and figure out about how many daggers are involved here. I feel small now albiet I will buy my 4th 2nd model luftwaffe dagger at the end of this new month. ;-)
Regards, Wim
I have 95 Luft2s as of today. This includes various maker marks, etched blades, artificial and real Damascus and a couple of oddball items (one postwar B&A, two PDLuneschloss with grip variations).
Some of you have asked me where I found these over the years. Here is my recap of my dagger sources (most of my dealings over the years have generally been positive, but a couple have gone way off the rails).
18 daggers from miscellaneous sources (Ivan, Tom, Eric, Stephane, Oldbrigade, etc)
18 from Paul Hogle
16 from Tom Wittmann
10 from Bob Rodgers
9 from Tom Johnson
6 from Doug Ritchie
5 from various MAX/SOS
3 from Craig Gottlieb
3 from Bob Iqbal
2 from Sterling Gambino, RIP
2 from Brian Maederer
2 from my Hungarian brother from another mother, Janos
1 from Bill Shea
I have to say that I recommend all of these guys, even Craig
J
And I've seen John's collection of edged weapons and it's impressive!
I have 95 Luft2s as of today. This includes various maker marks, etched blades, artificial and real Damascus and a couple of oddball items (one postwar B&A, two PDLuneschloss with grip variations).
Some of you have asked me where I found these over the years. Here is my recap of my dagger sources (most of my dealings over the years have generally been positive, but a couple have gone way off the rails).
18 daggers from miscellaneous sources (Ivan, Tom, Eric, Stephane, Oldbrigade, etc)
18 from Paul Hogle
16 from Tom Wittmann
10 from Bob Rodgers
9 from Tom Johnson
6 from Doug Ritchie
5 from various MAX/SOS
3 from Craig Gottlieb
3 from Bob Iqbal
2 from Sterling Gambino, RIP
2 from Brian Maederer
2 from my Hungarian brother from another mother, Janos
1 from Bill Shea
I have to say that I recommend all of these guys, even Craig
J
At the SOS this year, my friends Kevin and Tom found this Luft2 sitting on Joe Pankowski's table.
It is a correct configuration Klaas Luft2 with a unique to me trademark. There are slightly larger than normal kissing cranes alon stamped onto the blade, no writing at all.
Here it is along with the others that I have:
- kissing cranes only
- kissing cranes over Robt Klaas
- kissing cranes over Robt Klaas on a so called 'funeral dagger'
- etched circular trademark (the same one as we find stamped on etched Klaas bayonets
Note that the middle two are the same mark only on 'different' types of Luft2s.
How many more variations are out there?
RARE MM there John!!Well done! (Tom and I were pleased to find it for you even though we had been told to keep our mouths shut if we saw anything like this!! :)) LOL.. Kevin.
Here's a combination I've not seen before.
Gary
Gary:
This combination of an Eickhorn mqaker and the Durbeck Wien distributor logo is seen on an etched bayonet in Wayne Techet's book on page 244.
I have not seen a Luft2 with this combination before. Is this yours?
John
John
I had mean't I haven't seen this combo on a 2nd luft before, the distributor goes way back to the Imperial times and I have seen it on a few swords and the like.
It is mine, just come in from a collector in Germany. I couldn't resist it because of the condition and the unusual distributor for 2nd luft's, it ticks all the right boxes for me. I just thought I would add it to your excellent thread. I come straight to this thread whenever I see anything unusual to check if it's been seen before, because if it ain't here then it's not going to be known.
It's also interesting to see the Eickhorn mark tucked way up under the cross guard giving the distributors mark much more prominence.
Gary
I haven't seen this combo on a Luft2 before either.
Great addition to your collection, Gary.
Of course, it could only be a better addition to my collection
Cheers,
John
Gary,
Great looking addition to your collection, I too like the unusual combination of maker & distributor on a Luft dagger. And of course the condition.
I know that we've seen the occasional low position obverse Eick mark. That said, with the placement of the Eick logo behind the crossguard swaz & lower positioned distributor mark, do you suppose the blade has been reversed at some point? Given the location of the two mark, I think it makes some sense.
Billy,
I hadn't really thought about the blade being reversed at some point, it's entirely possible it has been, though if I turned it now then the distributor mark would be wholly under the cross guard as well, it's roughly in the same position as the Eickhorn mark as far as distance down the blade. For now it'll stay this way as it looks better like this in my opinion, it's such a cool mark.
John,
I fully understand your desire, unfortunately because of it's attributes I cannot see me selling it anytime soon. At least you have another combo to look out for, if there is one I should think there will be others.
Gary
A wonderful thread.
Thank You John for sharing so generously your wonderful World-Class 2nd Luft collection.
Hi John a better closer shot of the MM would be good, to me it looks too perfect almost like a laser etch
A closeup of the maker mark. My digital camera is not being recognized by my computer, so I took a number of high res closeups with my camera and resized them to fit here.
Here are the three.
Johnz
Bringing this topic back to the top for posterity, great work as always John.
Here are my 3 versions:
single oval full shield, no name on obverse
shield alone, C&J on obverse
shield alone, C&J Solingen on obverse.
John
Thanks, John,
I appreciate your help of the trademarks.
Dave
John
Have to admit I did not know this maker used at least 3 maker marks!
Hard to find 1 let alone 3!
Time frame of the 3!
Learning every day!
Thanks for sharing!
PVON
