O.K. this is how it shaped up. I was checking out a local militaria store that I look into time and again and spotted this 2ND Luft with hangers. Very dirty and dusty,I am informed that it came in the day before bought from the son of the vet in a dusty old chest along with a few bayo's. The price listed is indeed reasonable even if condition is bad! So I'm interested,I get my hands on it and begin the smoke over...(pics are after removal of layers of dust!)Well,hangers are pretty salty but they are the ones it was captured with! and they are included in the low price..... (read each reply one at a time for full blow by blow effect!!)
Scabbard is typical ROUND type used exclusively by Alcoso....
Next, I move on to the fittings...Alcoso crossguard too,nice untouched burnish....
O.K. , Wire is good and intact....Yep, Alcoso pommel too,with matching burnish....
Alcoso, type ingraved leaves....
Flip er over, Blade looks pretty nice,few smudges.....back of hilt good...
Wait a minute.....Where is the expected Alcoso mark?? Is it a no maker???
Last Chance..... Flip er over again, WHATS THAT HIDING UNDER THE CROSSGUARD EAGLE???
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.
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WOOOOOHHH! JACKPOT!!!
Very nice find indeed & a bargain as well. What more could you ask for!
Lucky you!
My My lucky man you are -Nice dagger.
Thanks guys, This is the ONLY way I was getting a Henckels, By getting lucky! I would love to see comparisons with you guys who have J.A. Henckels Luft 2ND's. Fitting types,ETC.
Kevin.
Kevin
I had one that was a twin to yours I sold it a year ago. Dressed in Alcoso parts.
Pic
Mr. Kendall,THANKS for pic of your "one that got away" really is the same vintage! Was the maker mark faced to the front or rear? Mine wont even go together right with the mark to the rear,and was VERY untouched when aquired. what made you decide to get rid of yours? How did you find yours? Kevin.
Kevin mine was acquired from Denny Roach when he liquidated his 2nd model Luftwaffe collection- the maker mark was positioned to the back. I actually found the dagger at a local gun show the guy said he had bought it from a vet’s son. I told Denny about it and he talked the guy out of it @ a later date unfortunately I had no $$ at the time. Well as to why I got rid of it? I the proceeds went toward something else I don’t quite remember maybe my Pack Navy. Hard to collect these things when the spouse doesn’t approve so the collecting budget gets tight sometimes and sacrifices have to be made. You being an army collector I would be glad to take that off your hands @ a fair price
One of the MM for ya.
Great pictures Tom! I feel your pain on the trading thing. I often have to do the same to get new daggers. My wife thinks I need therapy and wishes I would sell all my collection! Well we know thats not happening!!!
I will keep you in first place on my sell list on this one,still too in love at the moment. I wish I could get a better look at the J.A.Henckels 2ND Luft in Wittmanns book! It had a great early look. have you seen that one? If I only had a early slant Henckels heer now,life would be good!!
Kevin.
No need to worry the HENCKLES 2 LUFT. from MR. KENDALL found a good home.It found company with a KREBS, PLUMACHER, EVERTZ,FRIDERICUS and some others. The HENCKLES that you have looks great. Great find!!!!
Triple T, Nice selection there!! Love to see pics of that lineup! Only other "rare" 2nd luft I have is a nice early Clemen & Jung. Kevin.
Tom:
I have two Henckels, one TM that looks like the one pictured here across the blade and the second is a smaller TM along the blade.
Later today, I will take pictures of the two side by side and post it here.
Neither dagger is in minty condition, but it is the maker mark that interests me.
John
Look forward to seeing those John.
Kevin.
Kevin:
Here are the pictures. Pardon the quality, but I just can't take good pictures.
Pic 2
Pic 3 - logo along blade
Another view:
Wow! Good looking blades! looks like the one with the sideways mark is earlier?(NEVER seen one with that mark!! is that a plated blade?)The fittings on the other with my type mark looks to have WKC or generic fittings? Scabbard looks generic. Love to see fittings on sideways marked one! Lets see more! Kevin.
Heers68:
The scabbards are different for the two maker marks. The one mark is a one screw scabbard and the other is a two screw scabbard. (I myself am too old to be more than a one screw kind of guy
).
I will take and post more pictures tomorrow.
John
John, I had'nt noticed the WKC style side screw on the sideways MM Henckels. That looks just like a scabbard I had on a early WKC Luft that had a tapered tang blade! Pre-typical WKC fittings all around,you will see these WKC's once in a blue moon.(I believe them to be WKC's INITIAL offering in 2nd lufts before they put out there own fittings and scabbards.) anxious to see them beauties of yours! Kevin.
Heers68: More pictures of the Henckels
Pic2
pic3
another
and another
again
and last
I was at the SOS this year and walked by a booth selling Lufts. This one had a little sticker on it saying it was a Henckels. I have one already, but it is a little beaten up, especially around the blade, but I got it at a good price off e-ban.
So, always looking to upgrade, I picked up the dagger and pulled out the blade. When I saw the trademark, I said 'Holy S***!'. The seller looked at me and smiled, he knew as I did, that I had just given up any hope of trying to make a deal on this. Sure enough, I tried, but got nowhere. The end result is that I bought it anyway, at a price that I have seen some of the bigger dealers selling harder to find trademarks for.
I have heard people on this forum and face to face saying that they always look at every blade they can. Now I know why.
John
hi i have been given some army rarity lists my collecters we have the mcsarr but have not heard of a 2nd luft rarity scale has anyone got one compiled.??????????
thanks dippy
John thanks for your contribution. I must say that sideways mark must be very rare first I remember seeing is it stamped or etched? Kevin thank you for keeping me in mind if the time ever comes to sell I would really love to have it.
Tom:
To my untrained eye, it looks like a plated blade and a stamped trademark.
Do the fittings look correct for this maker to you?
John
John, That is a great looking dagger in a very rare combo of a super rare blade and very scarce fittings! Those are the EARLY initial WKC fittings and scabbard. Just like the tapered tang WKC luft I used to have. Very nice! I think this is a original and unmessed with Henckels. Possibly the earliest type of luft 2nd that was put out by this firm! CONGRATS. Let me know if you would ever like to move it! Kevin.
John I can say the scabbard is a pack and I personally have seen another Henckels with a pack scabbard and the same type grip wire so iam personally OK with this arrangement. Also the earliest Henckels army daggers are seen fitted with yep-Pack parts.Intersting as well as I was contacted several years ago by a fellow who had an army dagger his dad brought back a Henckels and it was dressed in Alcoso parts with the later high lift guard and white grip-man I would have killed for that dagger. My point is most of the Henckels I have seen 2nd luft or army have had either some or all Alcoso parts or Pack. Also I have seen a 2nd luft with what I think was a WKC scabbard so....
These early fittings could have very well been purchased from Pack by Henckels and WKC,but the strange thing is that the single side screw is distinctly WKC. Very unusual if they would have been aquired by WKC first,then sold to Henckels? All I know is that my tapered tang WKC was set up with these exact fittings and the side screw! Kevin.
Kevin interesting that scabbard does have one screw after another review I am not 100% that is a pack band? Obviously not assembled by Pack or it would have two screws.
Kevin I believe you right it’s not a Pack but I sure thought it was at first look though.
Here is a pic of an initial production WKC with the fittings and scabbard in question. This isnt the one I had but it is just like it. This one has a bit more hand work than our Henckels here but same hardware I believe. Kevin.
Photos of LUFTWAFFE Daggers.
BUCHEL
EVERTZ
SPITZER
Triple T:
Very nice. They look like daggers in superb condition.
I am missing the Evertz and the Plumacher. And I just picked up a Buchel at this year's SOS.
John
Tom, John,
Wow! Those are some hard to find Henckels.
Nice score there John. Congrats!
-serge-
Triple T, those are nice ones and scarce! Thanks for bringing them out,could we see a full frontal of all four? We have really shook the bushes and flushed some nice birds here on this topic. I guess I could dig out my early Clemen & Jung if you guys would like?, ANYONE else??
Kevin.
Kevin:
I would love to see an early C&J!
John
Kevin don’t those bands look similar?
Henckels
Krebs
Schuttlehofer
1st Seven
Triple T, Awesome selection of Luft 2nd's!! Thanks for the new wallpaper for my laptop! Ha! That Henckels looks familiar.
Tom, Great looking and rare Pack you have! I tend to think that WKC might have purchased there initial luft scabbards from Pack,but I,m not sure. Look at the lack of "depth" in the band casting on the WKC I posted above and the Henckels with the orange grip compared to the pack, I have and do own a few Pack luft scabbards and compared them to the initial WKC I had. The "veins" of the leaves are much more defined on the initial WKC scabbard compared to the vertually smooth leaves of the Pack. What do you think?
John, I will post pics of my C&J as soon as I can get back to the "BUNKER" Ha! Kevin.
Kevin et al:
Here are some pictures of my three Tiger Luft2s and my one Max Weyerberg:
pic 2
pic3
pic 4
pic 5
pic 6
pic 7
pic 8
pic 9
Your killin me here John!! I love that Early Tiger!!(personal favorite) and to have all three maker mark variations! WOW! That Max Weyersberg is a rare one also, and very nice! You do indeed have a killer Luft collection! Are you an exclusive Luft 2ND collector? MUST be your favorite at least.
Kevin.
Kevin:
Thank you for your comments. I have a couple more pictures to take and to show you. As of today, I have 41 different Luft2 blades, and 1 grip variation.
I started off collecting one of each, but once I got all of the easy (and cheap) ones, I wanted something to keep me interested. To that end, I decided to go for the Eickhorn TM variations in Heer, Kreigsmarine, Luft1, DLV, NSFK, HJ. I am also looking for Eickhorn K98 combat bayonets by year.
Not to mention etched bayonets by Pack and Eickhorn.
Sorry, if I come across as bragging, I really am pleased with what I have and what I am still looking for....YES, more Luft2 TM variations.
John
Kevin:
Three more Luft2s, one is an RA Herder common mark, one is an RA Herder no oval mark, and the first is a Fridericus.
pic 2
pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
pic 6
pic 7
pic 8
pic 9
The no oval Herder looks funny because I had to loosen the grip and move the crossguard up a bit to show the trademark.
I also have 4 Eickhorns, the 35-41 etched, the 35-41 stamped, the 42 over the shoulder and an early 35-41 etched with plated blade and waffen ampt stamped. I have one Pack, the common one, not at all like the rare and gorgeous one shown by Tom.
John
quote:
Originally posted by heers68:
Triple T, Awesome selection of Luft 2nd's!! Thanks for the new wallpaper for my laptop! Ha! That Henckels looks familiar.
Tom, Great looking and rare Pack you have! I tend to think that WKC might have purchased there initial luft scabbards from Pack,but I,m not sure. Look at the lack of "depth" in the band casting on the WKC I posted above and the Henckels with the orange grip compared to the pack, I have and do own a few Pack luft scabbards and compared them to the initial WKC I had. The "veins" of the leaves are much more defined on the initial WKC scabbard compared to the vertually smooth leaves of the Pack. What do you think?
John, I will post pics of my C&J as soon as I can get back to the "BUNKER" Ha! Kevin.
Kevin agreed the bands are different –does Wittmann show any of this type in his book?
John what a grand 2nd model Luftwaffe collection you have could be the best in the USA? At 41 types. That Max Weyersberg is rare first I have seen with this mark instead of the WMW. That early tiger’s grip wire is something special. Tell me how many tapered tangs have you found on your 2nd model lufts? You see no mention of this in the books but they do exist on some of the earliest examples.
My FRIDERICUS
PUMA
John, Heres that C&J. It came from the daughter of the vet so I believe it to be unmessed with. It is quite unusual becouse it has an extra leather buffer under the ferrel! Pics show it pretty well,have you seen this in any of yours? I imagin you have a C&J or two,do they have this anomoly? I think this is a early example from the fittings,scabbard and hand work.
More great Lufts John! I really like the Herder without oval. Fridicerus arent easy to get either! You indeed must have one of the finest selections of Luft 2nd's on the continent!! I obviously like the early ones,what do you believe to be your earliest Luft 2ND??
Tom, Whittmann does not have any info on these initial WKC's in his book.
Triple T, More nice ones! Love the Puma tag.
Kevin.[LIST]
Guys:
I don't ofter take my daggers apart, only if they go easily. And only to be able to picture the makers mark more easily.
Here are some more, 2 PUMAs, one with the cat head alone (hard to see it is so light) and one with the cat's head inside the diamond, and a Clemen & Jung.
pic 2
pic 3
pic 4
pic 5
pic 6
pic 7
pic 8
pic 9
John, interesting how these C&J's have that "matte" apearence to the blade. All the examples I have seen have the same look,kind of flat looking with not much of a shine or crossgrain. Kevin.
Kevin:
I thought that it was just mine. The blade is kinda spotty and dull, the grip is a little beaten up. Again, I jumped at a chance to get a rare maker mark even though I would normally just pass by a blade in this condition. For example, I would not even look at an Eickhorn or an SMF in this shape.
I also thought that I saw the word 'Solingen' under the "Clemen und Jung' on your dagger. Is this correct? Mine doesn't have this.
John
John, I had'nt noticed that yours does'nt have the solingen under the maker name. Is yours a weak strike? Maybe just a difference between when they were made? I have seen other ones like mine with the solingen,mine also has the Z shield stamped on the other side.So many variations,is'nt there! Kevin.
Kevin:
It could be a weak strike. Mine has the Z shield as well, but it is hard to see int he pictures. Sorry about that, but I am not an expert at taking these shots.
John
Next up will be my three etched Luft2s for your viewing pleasure, Voos, unmarked Voos-style, and CJ Krebs. Tomorrow.
I,m on the edge of my seat!
Kevin.
Johnz please put your etched Lufts in a new thread there are some great daggers buried in this thread that many may have missed due the title of the thread not being of interest to the casual browser
A J:
Thanks for the advice. I will do so later today.
John
