I took some new pics, and after reading some of yesterdays posts, I decided to hope we get back to collecting!

So lets see some goodies!


PVON

2

Sorry thats pic of tab I listed!

I meant to show visor!

Wouldn't let me remove!


PVON

3

4

5

Tag

Laundry?

6

Another visor!

PVON

Good idea Paul. Beautiful visors. My small group of black uniforms, which are visorless....The one in the foreground, is a 1933 with black & white collar twist, needs an early jawless EM. From Bodensee. (maybe 1935, I can't quite make out the VA stamp). The back one on the full mannequin, (Obersturmführer), from Hamburg, is 1938 VA stamped.

BTW, Paul your photo portrait there looks like the same vintage with black & white collar twist, as my early tunic, in my photo. I see he also has earlier style tabs. No doubt, a color bordered cuff title as well.

You need this black woolen, obviously. Viel Sammlerglueck. This came from Europe via southern California and was at hand. I did not buy it, either, for which I am sorry.

!That was both kind, and mean...!

Noch ein Bild, obwohl die anderen scheinbar keine grosse Lust hervorgerufen haben....

quote:

Originally posted by Johann:
!That was both kind, and mean...!

My dear, I did not mean to cause pain. I am angry I did not buy it myself, and I had the chance. It is still on the Grenadier website, in fact, but as sold...

The earlier wool was a different grade or courseness, which Donald could probably explain. I see the same texure of wool in this visor as is my tunic. I've also seen it on the early black kepis. Do you know what I mean Donald?

quote:

Originally posted by Johann:
The earlier wool was a different grade or courseness, which Donald could probably explain. I see the same texure of wool in this visor as is my tunic. I've also seen it on the early black kepis. Do you know what I mean Donald?

Yes, I do. However, it is hard to depict here. The wool in the early caps was of an excellent quality, whereas the later caps were of a lesser quality Trikot. I never actually handled the cap pictured here, but friends did and they tried to sell it to me while I was overwhelmed with the base closing process as well as a sudden upsurge of even more rare caps.

Some of those differences between early and later made pieces are hard to convey without seeing and feeling the two, side by side. Like early and later button finishes, (gekörnt). I wish that more collectors lived near me, so that I could see more examples close up...Luckily one of my tunics is early, and one later. (start of the war)...

Were I a better photographer, it would be easier. The early caps 'til about 1936 or were of generally much better quality than the contract caps made thereafter and which are most often encountered. The cap of Vondrack is an example of the later contract cap, made by the tens or more of thousands and at a time when the incipient war effort made things less luxurious, as well as the finances of the Allgemeine SS were on the ropes because of the general build up of paramilitary formations, &c. The latter fact is essentially unknown. The finish of buttons is well illustrated in the Assmann catalog, in fact. See pp.53-54 of the Reddick reprint. These contrast with the finish of the Wehrmacht and really most other styles of buttons in use in the III. Reich. The matter of the woolens, however, can only be determined by having the thing in front of you and a comparison with many pieces, in fact.

I would like to see that sometime. If any member has that scan, I would very much appreciate an e-mail. Or a posting...

Other items of black woolens already posted, but which garnered no comments whatsoever.

The most recent that I can remember, which were discussed in very much detail, were Hooper's "Happy Easter" and Hans' green bordered 6 sturm. I know of a recent purchase of a black cavalry tunic, but it's up to it's owner to share it.

I examined the early black visor cap at Bruce Herman's table at the last SOS. It was (is) a magnificent piece and I was tempted to buy it. I wish I had. At this time I am seriously considering the acquisition of a black outfit to stand guard in my office/den. Let's see some more of what you fellows have.

Cheers,

I am glad the cap with the early badges via Herman got the approval of brother Darryl, a man of great taste and refinement in black woolens and black helmets. Actually, I had posted some images of authentic black officer caps elsewhere, but these were greeted with a yawn. My computer is bollixed up at the moment and I am having issues with attachments, which are always too big anyway. Sapere aude. Postscriptum: oh, the computer digested this image of a cap I examined from Maederer. Unlike the the one on the Herman site, this cap had all the runes, tags, &c. It is of the era 1934 or so. Also here visible is the quality of wool of which my colleague in so. California has written above.

Here is its inside.

It had this kind of tag, i.e. the earliest one in use in RZM regulated items after about 1933/4. The tag illustrated here, however, is from an officer's cap of similar vintage. The Hamburg maker is an absolute rarity for black SS headwear, but the cap in question, which I recently saw, was stunning and quite authentic.

Another early cap, a Pekuero, which has seen the passage of time and which passed through my hands in the intermediate past. It has a kind of poetry to it. Plainly, its owner modernized its badges as the regulations changed from 1934 until 1936.

Yet another early cap, a Clemens Wagner, of exceptional quality, the property of one of the many medical doctors or professors in the SS. Look at the rank lists. This one has a leather peak. The badges were updated on this cap, too. One can plainly see where the other badges had been and these cap badges at hand are the 1st generation of their kind. The later Clemens Wagner caps are much inferior to this rare piece. This piece was defecated on by some on the other website who decried it for not being "...textbook." That is, it had none of the runes, tags, stamps &c. Wie dumm! sapere aude.

Finally, to overcome the ennui of a rainy Sunday in May, one of the caps from the Wilkins book, that I was also able to examine. Eine absolute Raritaet ersten Ranges, an early Mueller for an officer circa 1935. The saddle shape in its most refined expression. Its cousin is still for sale on the Maederer site, but of much later make, but wholly echt....zugreifen! Servus.

Johann,
A lovely collection you have there thank you for letting us peak into your bunker.
And many authentic and rare caps from Donald's images and the nice shaped one from Paul,,all pleasent to see on a late Sunday evening,,,,

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
Noch ein Bild, obwohl die anderen scheinbar keine grosse Lust hervorgerufen haben....

This did not work, obviously....

Yes, thanks Donald for taking the time to post these visors. I like the early ones with the pinched crest, but I LOVE the saddle-like shape of that last officer cap. High crown, and drooped sides. Perfect shape...Each has it's own character, same as the tunics.

What makes the one visor from an SS medical personell?

quote:

Originally posted by Johann:
Yes, thanks Donald for taking the time to post these visors. I like the early ones with the pinched crest, but I LOVE the saddle-like shape of that last officer cap. High crown, and drooped sides. Perfect shape...Each has it's own character, same as the tunics.

What makes the one visor from an SS medical personell?

The 1st cap I posted and 2nd to the last are named to Professor Dr.'s inside. Medical doctors were very over represented in the SS as a whole and for members of the social elites in Germany of 1933/34 membership in the SS was much preferred over the plebeian SA, the Crown Prince notwithstanding. As to the shape of the caps, they are what they are, and I like them all, of course. There are lots of officer's caps with the Tellermuetze shape, and the early caps without the rigid structure have a certain pleasing aspect too, so long as they are one thing......authentic. The saddle shape was borrowed from the cavalry of the old armies (i.e. prior to 1918...), and the crown prince's cap of this kind in the period 1914-1918 speaks to this fashion.

It's always terrific to see to see black cap images being posted. Donald, I have a couple of questions, which hat does the the RZM tag you posted come from? Can you date the tag from the hat?
The material used in the early SS uniforms was one of three grades available: tuch, trikot and gabardine. The gabardine was intended for summer use.
Hats from this early formative period do seem to be mostly made from the very smooth black cloth, (tuch), although I do have a couple of early hats that are made from a fine trikot.
That almost polished quality of the material in many of the early caps is a good indicator of authenticity.
Derek

Dear Colleague, The Opolka and Mueller officers cap I cannot illustrate, because the photos are too big for the rules here. It is a cap from 1934/5, granted when its owner got commissioned, I guess. The Officer's cap is of this very fine melton wool, similar to the cap I pictured first. It has the inscription "Stirndrueckfrei durch Gummipolster" and looks similar to this cap,illustrated below, with thanks to the owner of same in the great state of Texas--- but the one I have seen is without the RFSS tag. I examined said cap before it found its new owner. It plainly had the original badges ('29 eagle and Hussarentotenkopf originally...) but got upgraded....if colleague Chapman would send a note to my email, I shall enclose images of it for you.

Donald, thanks for sharing this exquesit pictures.

Dear Robert, thank you. I am a very eager collector of images, especially if I have been able to examine the caps in person as they travel to their various homes. I wish to stress that the image above is courtesy of Texasueberalles, who posted this image a couple of years ago. The Opolka & Mueller cap I saw was nearly its twin. It was not unlike the cap pictured herewith, which I have illustrated in another thread in the last couple of weeks. The cap here is an Isken/Koeln, the property of a member of the Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt, and a former naval officer from a renowned naval family of the Kaiserreich. Perhaps these images aid this site to achieve some of its old polish.

MR.ABENHEIM,WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE S.S. EM VISOR WITH THE EARLIER TOTENKOPF AND THE NEWER STYLE EAGLE.THAT IS ON BRIAN MAEDERER,S WEB SITE?I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT IT FOR AWHILE.

Hi Don:
I know you always enjoy viewing this one:

Another view:

label:

quote:

Originally posted by JIM A:
MR.ABENHEIM,WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE S.S. EM VISOR WITH THE EARLIER TOTENKOPF AND THE NEWER STYLE EAGLE.THAT IS ON BRIAN MAEDERER,S WEB SITE?I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT IT FOR AWHILE.

Without seeing these things in person, one has trouble making a final asssesment. I have seen the officer cap in black on his site (he asked me to examine it...) and it is a later production Mueller. The newly posted Austrian cap, i.e. from the Salzburger Standarte is also an interesting piece. Enlisted black caps are expensive, but not especially rare when compared to these officer's caps or the early caps generally. Maederer and Shea consistently seem to unearth these pieces. Thus, if one does not suit one's fancy, another is likely to emerge. This syndrome applies less so to officer's black caps, as well as black caps for OR and NCO made before about 1936 or so. These are more rare and lure the collector with greater magnetism than the contract caps of the later period, i.e. after 1936 or so...

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
Hi Don:
I know you always enjoy viewing this one:

Dear Sir, a wonderful piece. If you ever wish to sell it, please let me know. This is made of similar fabric as the 1st piece I posted and is also of early make as a Sonderanfertigung. It has the RZM/SS tag versus the brown script generic tag, which I believe came in at the close of 1934. This piece was bought from the RZM itself and made in the same town, that is Muenchen. I suppose this cap is from about 1935 or 1936 or so...my very first cap in 1971 was a later make of Mueller Sonderanfertigung, but not as interesting as this piece...viel Sammlerglueck

Jim

I must say I have seen pics of your visor,
and its outstanding but these pics look like
happy hour has arrived!

Take the lens cap off ol buddy!

Ok I have had my fun Jimmmy!!!!!!!!

Thanks to all who have shown or commented!

Anybody need pics rezized or posted please
contact me and I will be glad to post them!

Come on you lurkers with all the goodies
that faithfuly look but no show!


PVON

Ein Bild dazu! This cap was the property of a member of the Reiter Sta. of the Allgemeine SS in Lower Bavaria. As in the other examples, one can see where the later badge was added....

Noch ein Bild! Viel Sammlerglueck. An officers cap, with a somewhat more Tellermuetze like appearance. The cap buttons are dated 1937, and the piece is missing its RZM tag. These are all images of pieces which I have examined and passed onto others in the constant struggle against fakes and frauds.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
Ein Bild dazu! This cap was the property of a member of the Reiter Sta. of the Allgemeine SS in Lower Bavaria. As in the other examples, one can see where the later badge was added....

And here, the interior of same...

Some cap badges of note.... I posted this before. The former property of an officer in the Sudetenland, in the Eger region, near Karlsbad or present day Karlovy Vary in the Czech Republic. This cap is also illustrated in the Wilkins book.

Another image of interest.

Thank you Donald for posting some delightful hats and for keeping this thread going. Here is an interesting hat. It shows the length of time a hat could be kept in service and is a testament to the frugality of the 1930's. The early SS-Gruppe marked interior is from 1933/4 but the cap was obviously put to use for a few more years as the eagle has been replaced with a '36 one. Interestingly it is sewn on through three tiny drilled holes in the eagle a feature I have usually only seen on wartime hats. The visor is an RZM proofed one and therefore probably was also replaced. The hat came out of a Motel buy many decades ago before today's extraordinary prices and skullduggery.
Derek

Interior

An extraordinary piece of great interest. I wonder who did the repairs, and how one secured a peak with the RZM/SS proofs? Riddles in enigmas. Many warm thanks. Thus, the Gruppe West imprint here is from 1933/4? The designation itself was phased out thereafter? I cannot recall. Many warm thanks for your images from your magisterial collection. Postscriptum: Do you think that the variant with the runes, the stamp on the visor,and the tag or tags emerged in 1934? This is my wild guess, granted what is in Mollo as well as what is in the 2dary works on the Verwaltungsamt-SS.

Superb pictures and info!

Thanks for sharing!

PaulV

Here is another nice image. The front of the Mueller cap posted above. Viel Sammerlglueck.

The tag of said cap, also seen in the Wilkins book, in fact. A piece from 1935/6. Many of the black Sonderanfertigung officer caps came from Mueller. An example of much later date (1939? 1940?) is, in fact, for sale at this very moment, and has oddly been shunned by the collector cosmos because it departs from the textbook. It has no runes in the lining and is devoid of the acceptance stamp. Other makers of the Sonderanfertigung cap in my experience are Opolka & Mueller as well as Isken. According to the 2dary sources, the latter Cologne maker is denied to have made caps at all in the III. Reich--a glaring error. I have seen four or more black SS caps alone from this firm.

The interior of this later Sonderanfertigung, which is less remarkable--but real all the same. The black caps were still for sale via the Kleiderkasse at the end of 1940.

The tag of same.

Wow, really superb pieces. I wish I had something to add. I may have waited too long to get serious...

There is no time like the present. This material was always expensive, but now it seems truly to have become unaffordable. However, if we are doomed to live through the '70's again, with stagflation or whatever, then who knows where the prices will go. Such is not my thing. My desire remains to unravel the least detail of these odd remnants of the past and to use said knowledge to defeat the fakers. suum cuique!

Donald & Derek, many thanks for sharing these extravagance caps with us. Noy often seen caps and very rar.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Donald & Derek, many thanks for sharing these extravagance caps with us. Noy often seen caps and very rar.

Thanks to you, colleague. We need to stick together in all of this, lest we be suffocated by fakes and too many dubious collar patches.

Some wonderful pieces shown here.

My own "black" obsession has now gone over to Waffen-SS Panzer.........

Zum Thema Sonderanfertigung noch ein Bild. A cousin of the officer's cap, but for the OR. It was a cap identical to this that I found in 1971 for the staggering sum of 125 dollars. My first serious encounter with fetid black woolens, other than Breuer fakes. It did not have this tag. Our colleague in Arizona has its older sibling. The cap I have shown here is from the end of these kind of things, which my SWAG would be around 1940/1. Had the officer's cap I illustrated above the same runes imprint, it would likely have sold. However, the lining of the two caps is identical. The officer's Sonderanfertigung is made of a particularly plush melton wool, described in the Kleiderkasse SS price list. These caps seem often to come with a paper sweat band, which is odd, but maybe such was a means to reduce the price. The riddles of the past....

Here is the tag for this extra wear OR cap of the last gasp of black woolens in the III. Reich. A word to those who seek the truth. By the wonders of technology, you and I can amass a store of knowledge far in excess of what might have been the case in 1970. Those serious about this kind of headwear would do well to download as much as this data as is humanly possible. The empirical data here is staggering, especially for thise gifted with a keen eye and and analytical mind.

Here a very different and much earlier tag in a Sonderanfertigung for an officer, in this case the very rare variant from Isken/Koeln. This example at hand is also an authentic version of this tag, versus the legion examples of fakes. This is also the type of tag found in the Mollo book, and hence has double entertaintment value as a result. One seldom finds these kinds of tags in officer caps; rather, the black tags above predominate. The Opolka & Mueller tag is likely even earlier than this piece, or maybe not. Who knows, for I do not...

Here is how the rest of the interior looked on this Sonderanfertigung piece. It was gem, which now resides in a major collection. This cap had the RFSS tag, as well as the early tag--quite a thing, to be sure. Notice that this interior was a pumpkin-ish orange color of silk (versus the yellow-ish custard sort of color in many examples...), and in this case, real silk, as one finds in the early caps. The cap cover was an extremely fine trikot, much superior to that found in the average Lieferungsmuetze for enlisted ranks. Isken made excellent caps for the SS, in fact. This cap was the property of Shea before it was retailed. It cost 8500 dollars and was the cause of an uproar in early 2003. Today the average, nice enlisted Lieferungsmuetze for the Allgemeine SS has covered much of this ground in price, so I shudder to think what this piece might fetch, were it to emerge from its present home. Viel Sammlerglueck to its owner and to all seekers of knowledge via fetid black woolens whereever you may be.

Here is another of the early SS type tags, widely copied. However, this example is quite real. This cap was was the property of Darryl Pajot.

A tag in an officer's cap ca. 1938 or so. This style of tag was introduced in about 1937/8. Compare it to the tags in the Sonderanfertigungen above. This cap has the normal black lining, without any runes on the rhombus. This type is also copied, but not very well. Key details are botched...

The exterior of said hat above resembles this image.

An interior view of same. This sort of thing is now well faked, but the copies cannot compare to the originals.....

a side view, of an example with a modest saddle shape...

as compared to this piece, as seen above in various images. Both this cap and the one above from the same Munich firm. Made by the same craftsman a couple of years apart? No man can say....

You guys have some truely breathtaking pieces!!! It was a real treat to see them!

Regards
PAul

A further comparison of two caps I looked at in the endless quest for fetid black woolens... on the left, the Isken Sonderanfertigung ca. 1935/6, on the right, a Mueller Lieferungsmuetze ca. 1938/9. These images illustrate one criterion I seek in a cap: the cap band should be proportioned properly. The fakes always bollix up said detail. Viel Sammlerglueck.

Gorgeous hats, thanks for posting these pictures. Here to add to the party is an extremely early and very interesting kepi. This kepi has been constructed with a complete metal spring opera hat mechanism and thus can be folded flat and snapped open. The lining shows the DRGM number for this highly unusual feature. The mechanical elements have caused wear to the blue silk lining as you can see but it is in remarkable condition for its age. A scarce surviving example.

Lining

Wow, and with a leather visor too. I've never seen one of these before.

I am really pleased that we are seeing so many
nice items and info!

Here is a SS nco visor that came out of the woodwork couple yrs ago!

$500.00 Seems like a lifetime ao!

Not the first time I have recieved one from vet
with SA eagle or army on it!

PVON

inside

skull
from one of the visors

inside of a nco

inside

paper which was cost factor I quess!

more of inside

Tag on one of my visors

Thanks to colleagues for their little photo essays. Derek Chapman's black kepi has to be the single most extraordinary piece of SS headwear I have ever seen. The opera cap mechanism is astonishing and the pre-1929 cap badges are likewise staggering, to say nothing of the leather peak. Shea has a NSDAP kepi with such a leather peak, as well, but such a brown piece is a shadow of this kepi. The early caps were better made than the later kind, I think. The Lieferungsmuetzen from Wille and Mueller from Vondrack are nice adjuncts to the caps I have illustrated. For the novice seeker of knowledge, this file contains special material of great rarity and importance. And, it is not choked with all these infuriating fakes which burn out one's soul. Viel Sammlerglueck!

I agree with Donald!

If we can get John Pepera and Bob Coleman
to show some more goodies, we would really
be in the chips of learning!

One thing is for sure these original SS visors
early, late, officer ,Nco or kepis sure are
not going to get easier to get in future.

Peter Jenkins has some beautys and shame he no longer posts!

Well I hope to post some more for learning
later!


PVON

A terrific expose on SS headgear. Since this thread is a "Jack of all Black", so to speak, I have a question on a specialist sleeve diamond. Some time ago, this one was discussed, and the input that I recieved, was Pharmasist as well as Dentist. I can't find a reference to it in Lumsden's Allg SS...

Lumsden posts on the Wehrmact forum. Do ask him yourself. He is always ready with answers and quite engaged with all of us, to his credit. I assume it must be an Apotheker. I do not think this badge is in Mollo, either.

Thanke Donald...

Johann,
This is the early diamond for a pharmacist, as Donald says it is an "A" for Apotheker. Dentists wore a different diamond with a gothic "Z" for Zahnaerzte der SS.
Derek

Terrific Derek. The explanation of the character helps. (I honestly saw no "a" until you pointed it out). Let's see who get's it on the other forum. Again, many thanks...

At the risk of being didactic, the seeker of truth has to learn the alphabet of the time, Gothic script, Fraktur, &c. since these ethno-Voelkisch attributes were very important. Apothecaries, that is, druggists were socially prominent in German society, as well doctors, and had likely been rendered declasse by the depression. Apotheker were also an important rank in the Beamten des dt. Heeres, as well. Apotheker are an important feature of German life, today, since you can go to them (they are everywhere) and tell the nice woman behind the counter in the white smock what is wrong with you, and, nine times out of ten, they will give you some Medikamente that are quite helpful. 100% better than the drug stores hereabouts, I'll tell you. There is also much sensible homeopathy there, too. Of course, it is hard to get aspirin in Germany, on the other hand, I have to admit. Being married to a European I am constantly reminded of these social differences between life on the Rhein,Weser, Elbe, Spree Havel and Danube versus the state of Schwarzenegger and Google.

Here is another sleeve and cuff, of interest. This uniform is pictured in the Johnson war swag book of recent publication.

This is the collar patch of the same uniform.

A similar uniform to this caused a controversy here a couple of years ago. My colleagues and I believed that the combination of Abschnitt designation with the normal Standarte designation, in this case, Karlsbad/Saaz, was an Unding. However, this tunic was the swag from a "motel buy" and unamended since 1945 save the addition of a rank badge. I presume the roman # III designates the staff of the 3d Sturmbann, which did exist, and was headquartered in Elbogen, Falkenau, or Graslitz in the vicinity of Saaz and Karlsbad, i.e. western Bohemia. This 101 Standarte had been first HQ'ed at Saaz and later in Karlsbad. I should also note that the secondary literature contains no reference to this custom of designating the Sturmbann HQ via roman #'s, yet numerous authentic examples of this practice exist in collections. Bob Coleman has an Essen uniform for the "Weitzel" Standarte with such a cuff title found in a California garage sale... Maybe colleague Chapman has evidence of same in his encyclopaedia of SS Befehlsblaetter....

Here is the Verwaltungsamt SS stamp in this uniform. Whether its wearer started out as enlisted ranks or was commissioned in the wake of the annexation of the Sudetenland, no man can say.... the uniform is of the issue type. It is anything other than tailored, and rendered in the simple woolen cloth (Einheitstuch...) typical of black uniforms of the era of say 1936-1939. What did it see in its time?

It has this kind of RZM tag...this actual tag did I save from another uniform, but it is the same Hersteller, though the serial # is somewhat different. Remnants of the violent 20th century.

Donald, what an outstanding nice tunic.
There is nothing wrong with such a cuffband on such an Allg. tunic. And my point of view is also that this is a stuff of the 3. Sturmbann. Even with this officer rank it makes sence.
Some like the word some not, but this is a wonderful "textbook" tunic.

All VERY neat items! Here is a stupid question.... Since there was about 300,000 SS men are the SS items truly "rare" or just in high demand thus driving prices up?

For my view the word "rar" is for certain SS items underrated, especially for the real black items like Derek's early SS cap, or Donalds SS officer visors, or even black untouched Allg.VT/VT tunics. Such things are not often offered anywhere and seldom to find on the puplic market.

quote:

Originally posted by VonRader:
All VERY neat items! Here is a stupid question.... Since there was about 300,000 SS men are the SS items truly "rare" or just in high demand thus driving prices up?

They are rare and in demand. The kepi of Derek Chapman mocks all description as concerns rarity. The bulk of SS black regalia was destroyed by: a.) the effects of the war economy. i.e. recycling; b.) the war itself, i.e. the bombing of most German cities; c.) denazification and the aftermath of the war; d.) the passage of time. Don't kid yourself, this material is very hard to find. The daggers and the enlisted black caps may be somewhat more easily found, but not really. The authentic SS regalia was never common in my forty years of experience. Regalia of the army and other civil organizations was more easily obtained. Today one has a world market in which much more surfaces and collectors are knitted together by modern communications, but look at the German auction house catalogs or the old Manion's catalogs all of the 1970s, when the latter had real stuff, and you can generalize then... I do not put much stock in regalia plucked from veterans' attic and 'motel buys' &c., but this Karlsbad/Saaz tunic was apparently just such a find. Here in the Bay Area such a thing is next to unheard of, that is, the discovery of authentic black regalia from some virginal source. The regalia of these Sudeten units must have been destroyed enmasse in Czechoslovakia of the time. This piece was gotten by some US unit in the western Bohemia on the route of march to Pilzen. How common was such an occurence? Other of this black material ended up in Czech film studios and military museums. Some of it went into the hands of Czech collectors. But how much endured to come down to the collector cosmos of now? Thus, it does not do to suggest that there were some 240,000 SS in 1939 and each likely had at least one or two uniforms, and thus, they are other than rare. I assure you that they are rare and they are in demand because of the market loyalty of succeeding generations to the brand of the second world war.

I should also say that the Chapman kepi with the leather peak is the sort of thing one might encounter once in thirty or forty years---if at all. The black enlisted Lieferungsmuetzen are to be found multiple times per year, but seldom in perfect shape and now at skyrocketing prices. The black officer's caps appear perhaps once a year, or not, and are in constant demand. As Robert H says, they do not generally come to the public setting for sale, but are handed around within a certain circle. The black officer caps are more rare than the grey, and have more appeal because of all the silly stamps and tags. Integral black uniforms have become more difficult to find, in fact, but they do appear each year. Look at all the sites for comparison, that is, the good sites, the reliable ones which have authentic material and fair terms of use. Rather than the search for the holy grail in veteran's attics and motel buys, one does well to seek out the old collectors who have chosen to liquidate their woolens.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Donald, what an outstanding nice tunic.
There is nothing wrong with such a cuffband on such an Allg. tunic. And my point of view is also that this is a stuff of the 3. Sturmbann. Even with this officer rank it makes sence.
Some like the word some not, but this is a wonderful "textbook" tunic.

Thank you, lieber Kollege, coming from such an educated and discerning figure in the field, this is high praise indeed. Vielen Dank!

Here is the Saaz/Karlsbad Montur in its totality. It passed through Shea before it found its final home.

This is the cap, also in the Wilkins book...

Another view, with the Kampfbinde and various decorations. This man received the war service cross 1st class. For what? When? His initials: E.W.

Here another black uniform, formerly of the magisterial collections of colleagues near and dear to this writer, now in another collection of note. Hagen/Westfalen is the Standarte here illustrated, east of Cologne. This uniform has a colored cuff title, the image of which is too large for me to append here.

Another image of same. Here the cuff title of the pre-1938 pattern is visible. A very handsome piece. This one has no RZM markings, no VA issue stamps, save a Bevo VA/SS tag on the shoulder board, and likely on the reverse of the insignia, but only a lunatic would look for such tags....

Donald,

Very nice catalogue of images you have shown us. Please keep them coming. You know, I recognize a few of those items . Here is an image from my collection which was taken some years ago. The Standarte 81 uniform and band equipment now reside in other collections. I have always enjoyed the look of the black SS uniform...especially with a helmet.

Cheers,

Hi Darryl it may not appreciate as fast as a helmet but it still would have been a nice ensemble to have held on to. I am sure that you feel the pain of separation. cheers, Ryan

Donald, I am really deep impressed with your two tunics. Darryl, I know well how it feels to let soemthing like this go.
Some black tunic pictures, one of them is also gone.

Germania

Parade

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
Donald,

Very nice catalogue of images you have shown us. Please keep them coming. You know, I recognize a few of those items . Here is an image from my collection which was taken some years ago. The Standarte 81 uniform and band equipment now reside in other collections. I have always enjoyed the look of the black SS uniform...especially with a helmet.

Cheers,

Colleague Darryl, thank you. We are grateful for your skill as a collector, and your collection of helmets has changed the field of III. Reich regalia. The material I have examined is sort of garden variety stuff, not the bagged clothes of some Ritterkreuztraeger or cunning mass murderer, pi pa po, as found in some locales, but it is authentic and represents the bulk of this regalia, such as it is and which is seldom seen. I was lucky enough to see it briefly amid the endless migration of fetid black woolens. Jhnen alles gute!

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Donald, I am really deep impressed with your two tunics. Darryl, I know well how it feels to let soemthing like this go.
Some black tunic pictures, one of them is also gone.

Dear Colleague, thank you. Things on these fora had sort of collapsed (fake collar patches and idiot name calling...), and we all do well to set a high standard and provide an example to others of what this field should be, nicht wahr? Your material is also wonderful. Jhnen alles gute!

I love this stuff! Here is the only SS cloth itmem I own, just bought if off a forum member.

Any good reference books about understanding orignal SS cloth itmes???

2

Pretty darn good piece for the only one you own! Good deal too.

Excuse the poor photo but that was the way cheap cameras worked back in the late 1980s . Here is an Allgemeine-SS tunic to a member of the #6 signals unit (Nachtrichtenstandarte) based in Hamburg. This was an out-of-the-woodwork Steve Wolfe purchase back in about 1985 or so.

Cheers,

A slightly better photo taken a little later of the same tunic.

Cheers,

Detail of the underside of the cuff-title. The title had brown edges and the SS/RZM tag was left showing...strange but cool!

Cheers,

Here is another tunic I once owned. I sold it to Arthur Hayes and he featured it in his "SS Uniforms and Accoutrements" book years later. This was a high quality tunic tailored for a Sturmbannfuhrer assigned to the Administrative staff of Oberabschnitt "Fulda-Werra".

Cheers,

I really have now words anymore for such nice tunics I have seen today on the GDM forum. Thanks Darryl,Doug, Donald & co. for posting such rar high end items.

Wonderful material, Darryl, indeed. A pity one does not know where these black textiles reside now. Thank you for the images and your generosity to us all in every sense. The Fulda- Werra piece is for the Sturmbannfuehrer who was a graduate of Oswald Pohl's administrative academy, sorta, and was on the staff of the Oberabschnitt HQ. Pohl was quite the genius of organization and training, and those who wore this badge were part of his accolytes. In any case, a marvelous uniform. Thanks to colleagues for all the fetid black woolens. Beyond Mr. Ostermann's Reiter, though, this thread is borne by a small group known to one another. It is sad we cannot summon forth further examples unknown to our little band of seekers. It is somewhat akin to the search for life in the wider galaxies. Is there so little in fact? Then these black fabric things are far more rare than I might have thought. I always imagine that there are unknown collections with hundreds of examples, in sub terranean bunkers, in something like Area Fifty One or the Alpine Redoubt or Xanadu &c. It is sad that the images from the Coleman collection and the Pepera collection were annihilated with the end of the Bob Rodgers site. These figures have much in their wonderful collections.

quote:

It is sad that the images from the Coleman collection and the Pepera collection were annihilated with the end of the Bob Rodgers site. These figures have much in their wonderful collections.

Mr. Abenheim,

I need to inform you that nothing from my forum is lost

Rest assurd that the pictures and information has been saved

Amen!

Hello.
Sorry for the poor quality pictures it is the best i could do under the circumstances.

Brian

one more.

Something like this

Here is another one

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Rodgers:

quote:

It is sad that the images from the Coleman collection and the Pepera collection were annihilated with the end of the Bob Rodgers site. These figures have much in their wonderful collections.

Mr. Abenheim,

I need to inform you that nothing from my forum is lost

Rest assurd that the pictures and information has been saved

Thanks for such news. However, we can no longer peer at these images, can we?

Nice white tunic, I guess this is the Nuernberger tailor tunic when I am right.

Here one of the Coleman treasures, to accompany the white tunic above which lives in the same Schatzkammer. This textile was the property of the Standortkommandeur of the Waffen SS for Munich. The peanut gallery had been irritated by the collar patches on this piece ("too late a pattern for a black uniform....") but this figure might well have worn the black uniform into 1942 and beyond (look at the photos of the Staatsbegraebnis of Gauleiter Wagner, for instance...) despite the paper order from the RFSS that the black uniforms be shredded. The tunic itself was tailored by C. Louis Weber in Hannover. The tunic was from Shea at one point in its existence. Were all the black uniforms in the SSVT/SSTV/Waffen SS then recycled? Plainly not, granted how many have survived, in fact. Someone should collect all the documents on recycling of party textiles on this score. It would be of great interest. In any case, this uniform made it through the abyss and resides in one of the leading collections of the world. Many thanks to its kind owner.

Here is the Aermelstreifen on this tunic. A pleasing example of its type. Stickerei in seiner schoensten Form! Notice the "S" intrudes into the alu. border.

Hi guys,Do like the photos,posting my Germanske SS Norge tunic..
Jonny

2

Very pleasing piece. Did the Norwegians wear the dagger, also? Very handsome piece. Thank you for the images.

Jonny, a very nice interesting tunic you have. Gratulations also to the badge & the dagger !

Thanks guys,,Yes Donald,the Germanic SS Norway got daggers,you can se a wedding photo of Norwegian waffen SS frontfighters and the chief of staff in GSSN"with SS-daggers" in page 624 in the superb book of Thomas T.Wittmann(Exploring the dress daggers and swords of the German SS),The Germanic SS Norway was a reality after autum 1940(together with the rest of the Germanic countrys)In Norway 1285 members in 1945.The first 150 members swear loyalty to Heinrich Himmler hwo was in Norway in January 1941 and May 1941 Norwegian waffen SS frontfighters(about,6000)the first ones swear to Himmler.(The SS-dagger on the tunic is a ground Rohm with the SS number 35555 on the crossguard,not original to this tunic....
Jonny

Many warm thanks. Very interesting material and I take pleasure in learning something each day. Do these Norwegian daggers endure in Norway? I do not own the Wittmann book, which is my mistake, surely. schoene Gruesse nach Norwegen. What happened to the 1300 Germanische SS members in 1945?

Glad to shear,as you know the Germans was in Norway during the war,and when the war was over all the Germans was stripped for weapons,even daggers,so tru the years a lot of SS daggers turned up,both 33 and chain(many SD in Norway)unfortunately the SS m/36 swords was few in the end of the war,becouse the Germans was taken them back to Germany becouse of the regulations,and a pile of this swords went to USA as war booty after the war..please send them back to Norway
Consirning the frontfighters and the GSSN members they went to prison for aprox,3 to 6 years,someone even moore,shame on the tribunal in Norway,people demand hard justice.
Jonny

This was posted by strassberger on WMCA

another view

Here is one from Hooper

Here are three from John Pepera

pic 2

pic 3

How about one pic from the OTTO collection that Kia was selling:

here is one from RDBbrad

here is one from Coleman

last one for now

J. Mengele signature

wow love it all .

Some of my Black things

next

one more

THIS IS BLACK

Bob,

No one can argue that

It is

My small black contribution.
Matching set for Fusstandarte 68, Regensburg, taken off the same uniform by a vet from US 4th army.

/Felix

Bravo. Very nice ensemble. This Oberscharfuehrer rank was very common in the surviving memorabilia I have seen. Viel Sammlerglueck.

Superb stuff!

And thanks Bob R, for saving and posting many
wonderful pics of items shown by collectors.

PVON

Another Clemens Wagner cap of late make....

The interior of an officer's Sonderanfertigung with the marks of time.....a photo courtesy of Texasueberalles and his very fine material....

The Saaz/Karlsbad Kragenspiegel in detail....

The 1934 Schiffchen with the 1936 Hoheitszeichen, ex Pajot treasures....he is also a photographer of greatest skill.

Another early cap with non-standard piping...Feinzink Totenschaedel with no marks..a pleasing piece with much character.

An RZM tag of intermediate date in an officer's cap, an August Mueller, the property of an officer in the SS Totenkopfverbaende.... this kind of tag is faked, to be sure, however this Exponat has the mark of time...once more made and sold in the Hauptstadt der Bewegung....

A well known stamp....beware also of these as fakes. However, most attempts at this feature go horribly wrong....

Another early cap, already illustrated above..viel Sammlerglueck. How did these fetid woolen objects survive from 1939 to 2006?

I'm very impressed with all your collections. Don, you have shown some very fine pieces here!!

JS

http://www.geocities.com/benm38/thirdcollection.htm

Thank you, dear colleague. The pieces are not my property, but they have passed through this locale on their way to happy, caring homes. Your material is very nice, as well. Himmler was such a strange human being, one has to say. There is an excellent book out in Germany from the great niece of Himmler, in which much new material comes to light on the Himmler brothers and this man's background. Very well written and excellent researched material.

Don, I finished reading the book some weeks ago. Its written by Katrin Himmler, and called "Die Brüder Himmler, Eine deutsche Familiengeschichte", and is published by S. Fisher. Its an intriging book about the Himmler family, his parents, his brothers and their involvement in the NS regime and their respective faimilies.

JS

Thank you for the publication data. The book is excellent, indeed. All the best to Holland.

Wanted to post more pics of nco visor!

2

3

4

5

More looks at inside

maker number 4

Wagner I believe or something!

last

A1 4 is Clemens Wagner/ Braunschweig/Hamburg. They made lots of caps in the style as yours here. One find the VA stamp seldom. This is a nice piece. The Wagner caps of later make, i.e. 1938, were not the best in terms of quality and they fall apart. Yours is well preserved. A nice piece, to be sure. There is an extra stamp here on the reverse of the band which is interesting.

My black cap

The fancy pants version with the silky inside OOOHHHH!!

Wish I had some black to post..but I dont own any..but its been wonderful to view the nuggets owned by other collectors! To think these men once walked through the streets of germany in formation like so many Pez dispensers..it must have been a powerfully seductive and awesome sight!

Scott....Pez Dispensers are German also....did you know that?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave T.:
Scott....Pez Dispensers are German also....did you know that?

But are they faked in the manner of SS regalia?

further fetid textiles, already shown....a kind of nightmare pez container of aryan imperialism... I wonder what pez did in the III. Reich?

headwear in Reih und Glied.....leider alle weg.

Pez dispensers in action...courtesy of Leni Riefenstahl.

Cheers,

Just superb thread!
Thanks towards all who has contributed! It really boosts my interest for Allgemeine SS.

/Felix

Donald yes funny enough Pez dispensers are faked. Some are worth $5000.00 and more. Funny I had a hand holding an eyeball Pez dispenser as a kid and it is now worth a few hundred dollars. Not bad for something that sold for less than $1.00. Everything that is collectible and of value is faked. cheers, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
Pez dispensers in action...courtesy of Leni Riefenstahl.

Cheers,

Thank you, Darryl. There glimmers in the summer's fading of 1934 (...to say nothing of the ghost of Roehm and the other benighted and cursed souls of 30 June 1934...) your magical helmet. It is also interesting that these Leibstandarte people have grey bread bags and Labeflaschen, too. I admire your single-mindedness. When next I find an authentic LAH helmet with these badges at the San Jose flea market, I shall ring you up. Does a single example of this survive at all that is vetted? I have failed to buy all the Hicks and Beaver helmet books.

I should also say that the Hagen Westfalen images here are courtesy of Darryl, who is gifted in many aspects of all of this. The Hagen/Westfalen uniform is but one of two from the same SS fellow, actually.

Thank you, Ryan, for the guidance on the pez containers. I guess if people want it, it is faked, just like so much else. I am fated to stick with the stinky black wool for a bit longer. I had thought a way out might present itself to me....maybe I shall collect old Mercedes diesel taxis reconstituted from the Caucasus and the Middle East?

Hi Donald,

Yes, there go my "holy grails" in all their blackened splendour. These particular helmets being worn by the LAH appear to have national tri-colour decals rather than the slightly earlier painted insignia. These too were very short-lived. I know of no real examples, save for a hand-painted version which appears in the Beaver/Hicks recent work. I believe this very same helmet also appeared in Vol 2 of the Weinand/Goodapple series.

My collecting interest is actually changing somewhat. I shall expand on all of this at a later time. For now I am enjoying the wonderful images being posted to this thread. Keep them coming!

Cheers,

Thanks to colleague Darryl. We would be much weaker without your acute, insightful and magisterial command of all these metallic wonders. I add perhaps this...the last gasp of Mueller Sonderanfertigungen for the enlisted ranks. I enclosed images of its interior several pages back...

A mate to the Strasbourg uniform pictured above. The strong grasp of Sayle F also illustrated here....

This was posted here several years ago.Where is it today? It was in the Midwest at the time..also a Mueller Sonderanfertigung of early make, maybe 1934 or 1935....

another Mueller cap of later make, keine Sonderanfertigung....

all so so nice i would love to own a officers cap

sorry just cant seem to get the right photo.will put some more tunics up when i can.

Bravo to our colleague across the wide, blue Pacific. Very impressive. You should get a cuff title from Bruce Herman to finish this Linzer Montur. He has several authentic Sturmbaender of the type that would restore this piece, unless the Linzer Sta. had an Ehrentitel. Viel Sammerlglueck.

the interior of the Midwest ghost Sonderanfertigung...where is it now?

Similar, yet intriguingly different...oops, see the post below...the shot went off before I could aim....

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
Similar, yet intriguingly different...

These are faked, of course, and widely so. However, the IV Reich variety leaves much to be desired, as a matter of fact....

thank you donald there does not seem be eny think
in the angolia book that i see to what title no 37 linz standart honor title ? strurm honor title? there is no sign at all of one been there no discoloration at all every

ernst kaltenbrumner 15 june 1934 -15 june 1935

quote:

Originally posted by judas:
thank you donald there does not seem be eny think
in the angolia book that i see to what title no 37 linz standart honor title ? strurm honor title? there is no sign at all of one been there no discoloration at all every

There are those men who served without a cuff title, especially in the Austrian case, seemingly. Gary Wood illustrated many examples on the WAF site. However, I have found a lot of otherwise organic regalia stripped of cuff titles. Because a huge pile of authentic cuff titles recently surfaced here in California, these can be had cheaply. They are the model of post-1937 make, with the alu borders and alu. Sturm #. They would fit on your tunic, which also originated in California, I believe. That is to say, it surfaced in California, while originating in Upper Austria.

Wonderful items on display guys, thank you very much for puttin' on the displays.

Rgds,

Davey

quote:

Originally posted by Dave T.:
Scott....Pez Dispensers are German also....did you know that?

I thought Pez dispensers were Austrian? I could be wrong.and yes..they are faked..what isnt that is worth money? Regardless.I'd rather have the Black items than the pez dispensers.hopefully one dya I can put at least one nice black NCO set together..right now I have just combat and camo SS sets,,,focusing on SS Panzer.SS camo .dot pattern..cold weather winter garments..combat tunics..etc etc....but the black is obvioulsy very seductive and impressive

more regalia....notice here how these badges do not match. Likely the Hoheitszeichen was added in 1936 at some point....this very dark Deschler badge is also typical of the 1st generation of same---likely very neusilber with a buntmetall Unterlage.

A further image from the Schatzkammer Coleman, a tunic of a Motor unit. We now have images of cavalry and Nachrichten units, thanks to Douglas Ostermann. Notice the early cap with the leather peak; notice, as well, the Kragenumfassung of the pattern prior to late-1934, with the cotton and black textile. Very rare and pleasing regalia. These specialized units of the Allgem.SS were reduced in force from the Machtergreifung to the eve of the war, hence they are doubly rare....

This is the cap, itself. Once more, the Schatzkammer Coleman, one of the leading collections in the entire world.

Here, to keep this thread going, is an image of a very nice SS visor cap I once owned. A nice big size 60 with all the SS "bells and whistles" collectors like to see.

Cheers,

Bravo, a very nice piece from the equally important Schatzkammer Pajot. Notice how the cap spring rises above the crown piping in a most pleasing way. One of many C Wagner Lieferungsmuetzen of the era 1938/9. This one had the Verwaltungsamt issue stamp as I recall. Viel Sammlerglueck.

another image of note...again, from the Sammlung Coleman.

VERY nice collections! Does your wifes mind these diplays? Mine hates my collection!

quote:

Originally posted by VonRader:
VERY nice collections! Does your wifes mind these diplays? Mine hates my collection!

Your not alone, brother.

I dont even have a collection room for my stuff yet. I will have to wait for another couple of years, until my step daughter graduates HS(my step daughter would flip!!!).

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
another image of note...again, from the Sammlung Coleman.

A real oddity of this tunic is the driver badge is mounted on the right cuff, not on the left forearm as prescribed

Indded a very nice tunic Bob. It is always very interesting to see the odds in their regulations, and they got a lot of them.

My mischief has a positive result. Thanks to colleague Coleman for his patience with my filching his images. To colleague Hassler: I am still in dutch to you for our deal. I shall make it good ganz gleich. I should also add that we all have managed to post more authentic and notable SS material than is otherwise found hereabouts, even on the other website where some of us post. Thanks to all for their wonderful material.

A cap badge, an early Deschler in a state of remarkable preservation. This one has merely the "52" on its reverse.

another of the early tags....note the rivet as a means of anchoring the Sturmriemen. Notice, as well that this SS Mann entered his # in the correct spot; further, this cap appears to have two RZM Zulassung #'s. It is similar to the cap posted by Colleague Ostermann.

a side view of the cap above with the unmatched badges....somewhat rakish, even if not a Sattelform. Viel Sammlerglueck.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
Bravo, a very nice piece from the equally important Schatzkammer Pajot. Notice how the cap spring rises above the crown piping in a most pleasing way. One of many C Wagner Lieferungsmuetzen of the era 1938/9. This one had the Verwaltungsamt issue stamp as I recall. Viel Sammlerglueck.

That is correct, Donald. This cap had the VA1938 stamp inside.

Cheers,

A wonderful piece. These stamps are seldom seen, and usually in the years 1937 and 1938, especially. I believe that 1938 was a year of exceptional growth in SS membership; or the caps all got replaced...no man can say...

Another black woolen sleeve...an officer in the Saarbruecken regiment in the staff of the 1st Sturmbann.

More from the Schatzkammer Coleman....eine Muetze fuer die Dienstgrade vom Untersturmfuehrer bis Sta. Fuehrer....

Further of the Coleman woolen miracles...the cuff tile of pre-1938 pattern for the Motorstaffel tunic seen above...

A collar detail from an SSTV Montur in this most important collection...

The exterior of the cap from Coleman illustrated above.

Black woolens in large clumps....more than most of us shall ever see in one spot in a life time...these from the Coleman Schatzgruft. Notice the extraordinary things in the background, as well...when one writes of viel Sammlerglueck, then this idea finds its woolen incarnation in this image...One of these textiles in the background is the tunic of an SA Hauptsturmfuehrer and Blutordenstraeger from Steyr/Oberoesterreich, a highly decorated figure of the KuK Armee, later a so-called "illegal," who likely was put in the slammer by the Austrofascists/Staendestaat people after the July 1934 Putsch against Dollfuss on the Ballhausplatz and elsewhere, Unternehmen Elementarereignis. Such remarkable items as this are quite typical of this collection, to which I have contributed in a small way.

Grey belongs to black, to be sure in this case. The black caps have their grey brothers...

This is the twin of the Hagen/Westfalen tunic posted much earlier above in this heap of woolens....this tunic, as well, is in the Coleman collection.

The collar in detail....

This tunic resides in another collection, and was the property of the same owner in the years 1934-1940 or so....this photo courtesy of Schatzkammer Pajot. I shall cease now, and wish all owners of fetid black woolens viel Sammlerglueck! We can aspire to secure but a fraction of what resides in the Land of Lincoln. Postscriptum: I would add that the above are something other than the clothing of the most darling, dashing Knights Cross winners of the regime. These textile likely belonged to forgotten men of national socialism, whose names we shall never divine by the most remarkable artifice. However, they strike me as just as interesting and compelling as any ballyhooed personality piece.

quote:

Originally posted by pvon:
maker number 4

Wagner I believe or something!

Glad to see you've still got that cap, I really do miss it!
Cheers
Ben

interior of early cap in Coleman treasures. An ideal configuration, much desired by seekers of black textiles.

This cap popped up here ca. 2002. Where is it now? An early piece, too. It was a Sonderanfertigung. The little Totenkopf is rather over the top, but J Pepera has a similar piece. This cap illstrated here has a Muetzenkordel with Silbergespinst, which one sees in early caps, also of the Rw.

This is the interior of the above cap, as seen darkly across the gulf of time. Where does this black woolen reside? Who takes joy from its appearance, or has it, too, gone into oblivion like so many others?

Here is a tag from about 1937, the advent of what I believe are the 1st of the black tags...these are also faked.

Here a Baltic stinker of same...

Another poisonous little piece of fabric... this one is pretty inept. Viel Sammlerglueck. My effort at an encyclopaedia of fetid black woolens has run aground on the 75 k limit in these climes.

Wonderful job Donald!

I see many of Bob Colemans also shared
here!

The visor with army eagle I posted in 02
from pictures I have when I owned it!

It came with a cuff title and things and
Flossenburg camp marked items!

Amazing as you state these black woolies
have survived due to its past!

Hope this thread keeps adding more hidden treasures!

PVON

Donnerwetter! I had not realized that the officer's cap had been yours. Oh well. Do get it back somehow. Bob Coleman gave me dispensation to share jsut a few of the remarkable things in his treasure chest. I have run out of little pictures, sadly. This shall have to do for awhile. Someone else can share the burden. The older I get and still discover these things, or share in the discovery of others, how these things endure especially across the 1940s 'til the 1980s does interest me. In some case, I was a witness; in most others, it is a matter of conjecture.

Here is something different, the use of the symbology of death in art and culture. No fetid black woolens here, but still German culture and even politics in a very remote sense. This is the work of one my favorites, Alfred Rethel, a German painter of the mid-19th century, "Tod als Wuerger."

DONALD,WHEN YOU FIND A WHITE SS TAG UNDER SWEATBAND,AND BLACK TAG IN INSIDE CENTER.THAT WOULD BE A GREAT SIGN IT WAS MADE IN 1936?

quote:

Originally posted by JIM A:
DONALD,WHEN YOU FIND A WHITE SS TAG UNDER SWEATBAND,AND BLACK TAG IN INSIDE CENTER.THAT WOULD BE A GREAT SIGN IT WAS MADE IN 1936?

There are at least four (..and perhaps more..) kinds of white tags. It depends on the one in question. The officer's cap above in the polaroid is, I think, from about 1936. That is a swag, really, for one can seldom really know unless the thing has a VA issuance date. I also look for other signs on manufacture. The RFSS tags under the sweat diamond seem to have been phased out around 1938. Hence, one tends to see these from about 1934 until 1937/8. In the end, of course, these black caps were made for maybe at most less than a decade. i.e. 1932 'til 1941 or so. The latter date is also a swag.

This tag I associate with the era 1935/6. This is a Heinrich Wille/ Hannover, a contractor of many black caps, to be sure. However, I do also think that the "SS Dienstmuetze" white tag was used at the same time, but I am not really certain. I believe the cap itself was offered for sale in the UK ca. 2002/2003. I wish I had snagged it. I also believe that this is the last of the white tags, which originate ca. late 1933 or early 1934. Let me stress, however, that all of the above is empirically informed speculation, devoid of much evidence in the regulations. I do believe that the Bender books contain concrete archival evidence on this score from the Mitteilungsblaetter d. RZM. This data is contained in the NSDAP/SA volume. I have neither it nor the most recent volume, in fact.

Another example...I believe this is Steven Lee's nice cap, which is also posted here again.

This is Mr. Modena's early piece. I think this tag was used before the white tag above, but also concurrently.

This variant of a white tag is quite rare, but granted the dates associated with it, it, too, might have been used concurrently. Someone has more evidence than do I. The riddles that shimmer before us in the murk.

THIS IS A WHITE TAG IN A SS E.M.VISOR HAT OF MINE.WHAT DOES TUCHMUTZE MEAN?HEAD GEAR?

THE BLACK SS TAG IT THE SAME HAT.

MORE OF HAT

LAST OF HAT

Thank you for the images. Tuch= cloth; muetze= cap. That is a nice piece with a maker's # I had not seen before. Viel Sammlerglueck. By the way, as to this here to fore unseen number, this kind of data is a monthly or weekly occurence in all of this.

I guess it would not be a bad time to show just what all these black woolen items morphed into. This is as close as you will most likely ever get! David

Next photo

next photo #3

next photo #4

I showed this cap a few years ago but it is deep in the old files so I thought a refresher post was due. David

Dear Colleague, your grey cap, of course, places the black ones very much in the shadows. An exceptional piece. I had saved your images when they first appeared. When you decide to sell it, please let me stand in line. There are many grey caps, but they are devoid of these features. I also imagine this cap was from about 1937 or 1938. Do reflect for a moment on how few officers would have had such a cap in that year: very few, indeed. Is there any stamping on the reverse of the sweat band? Ein Prachtstueck. The grey caps went from this marking similar to the black caps to being quite unmarked. How is a mystery to me. Many thanks for this piece and viel Sammlerglueck.

Thanks Don for your comments.I now am certain that this cap was the property of Richard Eberhard. There were as you remember other Eberhards but Westmoreland Research found that Richard was in SS/TV Brandenburg from 10-7-37 to 1-4-38 followed by SS/TV Thuringen Followed by SST.Inf.Rg.3 etc. That was my man, no other it could have been as you pointed out. Again not WSS but SSTV. There is ink stamp on back side of leather band but difficult to read. A number like 143 but I am not sure. David

David, this is a visor where everybody can dream about to have in a collection. This one has an interesting history. Gratulations !

Don, thanks a lot for showing all the real label styles !

PS, Eberhard received both ring and sword and was a Hauptsturmfuhrer by 25-8-39 and fought with the Totenkopf through 1944. I am sure there is more on this officer out there. David

Very interesting data, to be sure, and the Totenkopfverbaende connection with Eberhard makes the cap even more remarkable. I guess we did have an exchange on this score at the time. An astonishing piece. We celebrate your pleasure in ownership of same and thank you that we might see it once again. Afterall, such is the point of this effort. We long to see the remarkable and the stupendous.

Lieber Robert, endlich habe ich die Zahlung fuer Sie, und werde diese morgen abschicken. Ich danke Jhnen fuer Jhren Geduld. Herzlich, Dein, DA

Here is an early tag in a black cap.

The inside

WONDERFULL ITEMS OF BLACK GENTLEMEN PLEASE KEEP THE COMING AND WE SHALL ALL LEARN MORE FROM THESE ORIGINAL ITEMS,,,,, Stephen

quote:

Originally posted by ksfinley:
Here is an early tag in a black cap.

I wrote above that, each week, new material comes to light. I have never seen this particular tag in a black cap. And mark you, I have seen more than one black cap and a lot of tags. This is a very rare variant from a rare maker. I have seen caps from A1/35 (maybe Derek Chapman will tell us who this was...) However, this evidence found by one of our most accomplished masters of the here to fore unseen piece, substantiates my point that all lists of "known makers..." or variants a through d are somehow specious. It is all well and good to make lists, but they have to be definitive. Rather, we take pleasure in reflection on the known knowns and the unknown unknowns.

The A1/35 license was given to Gundermann and Kornacker of Magdeburg.
This thread has turned into a splendid pictorial essay of RZM tags. Collectors would be well advised to save off these images for their files.
I would love to see exterior shots of the latest hat posted as it appears that it has been upgraded with officer's cords.
Derek

Hello all,

I am well out of my league when it comes to A-SS/W-SS headgear however I would note that Bill Shea has just listed an interesting transitional W-SS cap on his site. best regards,

Mike

Thanks to Derek Chapman for his data. It is interesting that Wille was in Hannover; Wagner in Braunschweig, and Gundermann & Kornacker in Magdeburg. These are all no. German makers of a kind, and all somewhat close to each other geographically. That is, as you travel from east to west on the A2 from Berlin to the Ruhr (or vice versa...), you pass through each of these towns. I had not known of the cap makers, heretofore, save from C. Wagner. I am also sure that I have left something out in my little compendium, as well. However, Kevin's Gundermann & Kornacker tag is quite a welcome addition.

Bill Shea's visor looks original and shares many traits with the example pictured. Price is over $8000.00. cheers, Ryan

Classic thread!

Nice stuff shared!

Learning all the time!

PVON

I should add that Adolf Ernst was in Hannover/Nord, as well. I wonder if this concentration of contracts to these no. German locales was to compensate for the likely concentration of contracts closer to home of the RZM in Bayern? Or to distribute the work away from the Reichshauptstadt, which was weighted down with such contractors. A minor and perhaps picayune point of no apparent historical meaning... To colleague Vondrack, you started all of this, afterall, and encouraged me to overcome my reticence about images. "...Immer Vorbild sein..." is how I was raised, of course. I am sure that Kevin will append more images of his cap. He is quite the genius of unearthing the subterranean fetid woolen.

The Officers cap cord appears to have been on the cap for a long time. The side buttons are sewn to the cap.

Nice saddle shape.

IS THERE ANY BOOK THAT HAS A COMPLETE LISTING OF THE RZM NUMBERS OF THE BLACK HAT MAKERS?

quote:

Originally posted by JIM A:
IS THERE ANY BOOK THAT HAS A COMPLETE LISTING OF THE RZM NUMBERS OF THE BLACK HAT MAKERS?

There is the Handbuch d. RZM from 1935 as well as the Mitteilungsblaetter. It contains the names of firms to whom licenses were given. I do not believe it contains what kind of regalia they, in fact, made, other than in a most general sense of the license itself. Once one got a license to make headwear, I imagine one made the headwear warranted by contract or the bespoke requirements of customers (on a small scale...) However, there is no secondary work to my knowledge with this data. And, I sincerely doubt that many souls actually know which firms (in total...) made such caps. I have included here the results of forty years of empirical study, greatly aided by the kindness of others. The search for lists generally leads to a dead end. In any case, the fakers have begun to copy the Zulassungsnummer of the major contractors, in any case. Many caps were made by Wille/Hannover; Wagner/Braunschweig/Hamburg, and A. Mueller in Muenchen. But as one can see here, there were several other makers, and I am sure that there are several more about which I know nothing at all. Derek Chapman can help me here and I must buy the latest Bender book all the same. We look forward to Derek Chapman's book, and Shea is finishing off the work of the late Michael Beaver. The key though, is to be able to recognize a real cap, and the Zulassungsnummer is but one piece of data. I think the mania in the dagger biotope for numbers is all well and good, but one cannot offer such a list until one finds the list the SS itself used or that used by the RZM. The issue here is that the fakes of these have improved drastically, in part because of the Schiffer illustrated works. One has to stay ahead of the boese Menschen. The Gundermann & Kornacker piece is quite rare, and the tag in Kevin's cap is an unikat for me, actually. I should also add that the secondary work upon which many rely provides only partial insights into this material, that is, black SS headwear. For instance, do refer to it in search for just this Magdeburg firm and report back on what you find.

Kevin has found a very nice cap as he so generally does.He has also recently found other SS headwear of great rarity. He just should not spill coca cola on such a thing, though.

Allgemeine-SS trumpet banner - the real deal!

"Skull" side.

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Bill Shea's visor looks original and shares many traits with the example pictured. Price is over $8000.00. cheers, Ryan

Dear Ryan, the cap in question is now on hold. Donnerwetter. It seems as if you facilitated a sale! It is an intriguing piece, and, next to the piece in the hands of our colleague Violin, the now world famous Eberhard cap, it may the 2d I have ever seen in forty years as an officer's cap in field grey. This sort of thing must have been in use in the years 193X-1940 or so. But in which year did such grey caps first appear? From the photos, we know the year to be 1935 in the case of the LAH. From Colleague Violin's cap, as well as Eberhard's notional dates, then I vote for about 1937 at the latest. Derek Chapman must come to our aid, as he always has the data on these kind of things. When does a grey cap for leaders appear in the price lists? In any case, Shea seems to have found a taker for his grey cap with the runics. Sapere aude.

I believe that the cap on the Shea site came from Weitze. If so, I had it in hand at the Stuttgart show. At a fraction of the price, the cap was widely 'poo pooed' by a few well known dealers. But, I must admit that it has many nice traits that do share some similarities with the cap owned by violin.
As always in this hobby... Knowledge is Paramount.
Doug

Jedem das seine. Let each decide for themselves by their own lights. I, myself, rely always on my own judgment, especially in view of the general state of knowledge about this material in the world evidenced by this and other fora. Or I consult with one or two whom I respect, none of which is a dealer, either. Might I also observe this: I do not wait around for dealers to tell me how to make decisions, of that you can be utterly sure.

Mr Grumpy,
May we have a close up of the fringe around your piece please and could you discribe how it is constructed,,, Thank you in advance,,,Stephen

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
Jedem das seine. Let each decide for themselves by their own lights. I, myself, rely always on my own judgment, especially in view of the general state of knowledge about this material in the world evidenced by this and other fora. Or I consult with one or two whom I respect, none of which is a dealer, either. Might I also observe this: I do not wait around for dealers to tell me how to make decisions, of that you can be utterly sure.

Let me add a couple of points here: I have never seen an authentic black Sonderanfertigung officer's cap offered from Germany very recently or really at any time since the 1970s. The bulk of same I have seen in fact or in images are in the US. The grey cap here is, in essence, like the cap in the midwest, a Sonderanfertigung style of cap with a grey cap cover. It is not difficult if one has seen various Sonderanfertigung caps in real life to determine if this cap in grey (be it from Hamburg or Mazir al Sharif...) is put together or has the requisite traits of an authentic cap. Violin's cap is a Mueller cap, identical to other Mueller caps, save that it is grey and not black. I have seen several Mueller caps of the same era as colleague Violin's cap. If one is able to examine the Shea piece, it would be reasonably easy to compare it the metrics of known pieces to a high degree. I would also add, that in my experience, the only dealer who has offered a Sonderanfertigung black officer's cap for sale recently has also been the wizard of Hubbardston. His caps have I actually been able to examine, and they were all 110% authentic. Other dealers have offered the einfache Ausfuehrung, that is, the variant devoid of runes and a silk or rayon lining, for leaders. The Sonderanfertigung model for enlisted ranks are encountered in the ratio of about one such cap for maybe ten or fifteen of the einfache Ausfuehrung, i.e. with the orange water proof cloth lining. One could, possibly, have reassmbled this officer's cap from such a piece, but the images really do not suggest such a thing. Perhaps Mr. Ostermann will speculate whether the cap in question was perhaps remade?

Hi Donald hopefully you were the purchaser of this fine Shea example. I like the appearance of the cap and unless a hands on inspection gives reason for suspicion think it an original piece.There will always be detractors when an item does not conform to the norm in the collecting fraternity. Mr.Chapman acquired a rare and wonderful piece for a mere fraction of its true value because his knowledge out weighed the negative dispersions cast by the collecting masses. cheers, Ryan

Hi Bill Shea , although not an expert in all fields is quite accomplished in the arena of SS headgear. I feel confident that he would have examined this cap for the attributes of a reproduction or put together piece prior to offerring it for sale.cheers, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Hi Donald hopefully you were the purchaser of this fine Shea example. I like the appearance of the cap and unless a hands on inspection gives reason for suspicion think it an original piece.There will always be detractors when an item does not conform to the norm in the collecting fraternity. Mr.Chapman acquired a rare and wonderful piece for a mere fraction of its true value because his knowledge out weighed the negative dispersions cast by the collecting masses. cheers, Ryan

Dear Ryan, I do not know who has seized this fetid woolen. If I find out, I shall tell you. And, you do, as ever, bring up a salient point that I poo-pooed a black Feldmuetze that Derek Chapman was able to buy, because I was a total depp and stupidly thought the thing to be made up. In fact, it was wholly real. Mea culpa. Wie dumm von mir. You are absolutely right that the group think here narrows the horizon of reality down to a pretty narrow slice, whereby much of the unknown unknowns (Herman Kahn & Donald Rumsfeld...) slip ever more into oblivion. These fora have increased my own knowledge of this material by 500%, and I am delighted to learn something new each day. Kevin Finley's Gundermann & Kornacker cap is just such a symbol of the ever widening horizon of the collector sphere, over which none of us has a monopoly of knowledge.

What I do know, though, is this: in the period from the introduction of the grey uniform (earth- or field grey) leaders in the SS at arms wore such grey caps, some of which surely were marked with runes, stamps, pi pa po. Nonetheless, in fact, few collectors have ever seen such caps even in black in the model for leaders. There was a wholly real black officer's cap on the WAF which one collector somewhat oddly asserted was the dagger king's fake of the late-1950s and early-1960s. Such an assessment was in error, of course. The cap was real. In another instance, a black cap illustrated in a leading reference was later poo-pooed by a leading dealer. The cap did have fake badges, but the thing itself (minus the badges...) was wholly real, and a very rare variant. The dealer in question was simply wrong, and grossly so. I treasure the ideal of consensus, but I think it is more or less impossible here to gain total agreement on many kinds of pieces because of their rarity as well as what surely must be described with the German word: Futterneid.

Glad to describe the banner, Stephen. I apologize for the photos, but had to crop them to get them to load on the site. I don't have the technical know-how to appropriately size them for display here. The dark background cloth appears to be silk. It may be a synthetic, but I doubt it. The larger silver pieces (skull, SS runes, etc.) are of one-piece very fine brocade. The black on the skull and oak leaves is embroidered to the brocade. The leaves are outlined in a very fine wire, as are the skull and runes emblem. The fringe is twisted wire. It has a gold cast to it. I can't tell if was originally silver, but I think not. Oddly, the leather attaching straps are almost a luftwaffe blue, about the same shade as used on 1st lw daggers and swords, but a bit grayer in appearance. The strap buckles are plated steel. Give me a little time and I will post the photos you desire. Thanks for the interest.

I forgot to mention the entire banner is sewn by hand and beautifully done. You have to scrutinize it to tell it was not machine-sewn. Here is a close-up of a corner depicting the fringe.

Attaching strap and buckle.

Donald,
The fact that I stated that some well known dealers had poo pooed that cap at the Stuttgart show, does not mean that I 'wait around for dealers to tell me how to make decisions'. But, thanks for the 'observation'. However, I do think that it is helpful to get input from other collectors (even if some of them are dealers) especially when considering purchases in a militaria show environment where cash is short and decisions often need to be made rapidly. If I had 30 years of ss visor cap collecting under my belt (like some on this thread) instead of 1.5 years of general ss collecting, who knows... maybe I would not need any input from others.
As I am less familiar with this style of grey cap, the RZM marking on the bill and the circular ss runes inside the cap gave me reason to be cautious. The cap also showed very little use/wear and the interior lining was not a material that I have seen in a grey cap before (it also is different than that found in the Violin cap). That being said, there were many aspects of the cap that I liked (as I stated) - which is why I took the time to check it out a bit at the show. If I had the opportunity to compare the cap side by side to the cap owned by Violin (as is possible in the pictures on this thread) I may have purchased it.
As I stated above, knowledge in paramount. If I had more knowledge of this type of grey cap - which I think we can all agree is extremely rare - it may have been added to my collection. As it is, it has become another piece of merchandise for Mr. Shea to offer at nearly 4x the price.
Doug

Dear Mr Ostermann. I am not going to have spats in public with you since it is against the rules here and rightly so. You misinterpreted what I wrote. I was writing solely for myself as regards myself and dealers. I did not generalize about you in particular, or else I would have written such clearly. If I were to do so, I should write to you in private, which I may yet well do. I did ask you politely whether you think the cap is remade. I am not sure whether you answered my question.

I have collected German head gear for forty years, give or take nine months. I am not sure what this fact means. I actually think in these contexts it means much less.

I also do not want to have a stupid public spat about dealers, since it is a trap, be it Weitze or Shea or the man in the moon. Far too much on these fora is lost to inane, circular fights about dealers which are proxy fights for the seven deadly sins. I do think that one's reputation in all of this is always on the line, and I find it odd that many figures (...and Mr. Ostemann, I am not generalizing about you...) spend more time sniping than they do either asking legitimate questions of adding material of value.

I have never seen this cap, other than on Shea's website, but like Ryan Sellick the cap seems that it might be rea--maybe not. The interior material is typical of NSDAP caps, and if the runes are real, that is very obvious. The fake runes are seriously off in their appearance. Please do not misinterpret what I am writing. The point of these fora is to enable people to make their own decisions. Without putting too fine a point on it, I also receive an average of at least three or more inquiries a day from people whom I have never met from all over the world to give an expertise on things, which, in many cases I never get even a single word of thanks. There are exceptions, but there is also a tendency here to reduce decades of hard won knowledge to a very modest commodity, which I think is excerable. This internet exchange breeds bad behavior in a kind of aggressive-ness, especially from neophytes, which would never happen across a table or vis-a-vis.

In any case, I shall close with this, and Mr. Ostemann, if you wish to take exception to something I have done here or elsewhere, then you have my email and you can write to me or call me on the phone. I'll even reverse the charges.

Donald,
I am not looking to get into a spat, particularly with you. You have been of help to me in the past and I am appreciative of your willingness to share your knowledge.
I'm not sure what brought forward the comment about 'waiting for dealers to tell you how to make a decision' but it did seem to be in reference to my posting.
My comment was not intended to denegrate the cap by stating that well known dealers hat poo pooed it, but to illustrate that even professionals are often quick to judge when faced with a rare/unfamiliar example. Not to say this cap is original (as I truely do not know), but I think it deserved more examination than many at the show were willing to give it.
I have stated most of the issues that caused me to pass on the cap at the show, but the most important two were certainly the lack of wear and the cloth used for the lining.
Given the images of the Violin cap for comparison, I am definitely more favorably inclined to believe that the cap has a good chance of being an original example. I would certainly need a lot more time with the cap in hand than I had at the show to feel comfortable adding it to my collection.
Doug

Doug and Donald I would like to think that I know both of you to a certain degree as I have spoke with you both and have done good business with you both. I respect your collective knowledge. Unless I missed something Doug I did not see anywhere that Donald singled you out for criticism or otherwise. Donald, just an aside I didn't know that you were one of those that cast negative comments on Derek's visor. Had I known I would have been sensitive and would not have brought it up as an example. You are both valuble members/contributors to this forum and it would be ridiculous to allow a perceived slight to come between you.Perhaps accept the offer of a telephone call. From my own experience many a similiar call has cleared up many computer misconceptions cheers, Ryan

Thank you. There are many, and indeed too many collectors (and I do not mean you, Mr. Ostermann) who have a blind faith in glamor dealers. They fail to enligthen themselves. They buy no books; they engage in no effort themselves, but flock to the temple of a few glamor dealers to sit at their feet to garner snipets of wisdom. One sees this syndrome in these fora constantly, and Roger Bender complained to me about this recently as a cause for the shifting fortunes of his publishing undertaking. It was to this phenomenon that I was referring, in fact, and which I find very curious.

Also,I am sure that I shall be pilloried for this, but I do think that Bill Shea knows exotic SS caps. I am aware that others are jealous and resentful on this score, and I do not mean to suggest, Mr. Ostermann, that you are making this statement. However, I have noted a tendency hereabouts of this general direction. I have seen many of his rather more over to the top SS caps, and in 99% of cases they are authentic.

If the issue is this that the illustrated examples of grey SS caps in the Schiffer books or Wilkins contain no such images of a cap with runes, stamps, &c, then I must cordially suggest that these books have certain understandable limitations. The violin cap is an example of a very rare kind of grey SS cap from the era of the Verfuegungstruppe/Totenkopfverband, you name it, in which the officer corps of the SS increased from a small size to much larger, but still actually a very small # of officers, I think less than ten thousand or so. When the Eberhard cap was made in 1937 in Munich (of this I am fairly sure....) the officer corps of the SSTV was at most between a thousand and two thousand men, if that. The strength of the whole SSTV at the end of 1937 was less than 10,000 men. The SSTV doubled in 1938, by the way. Thus, the Eberhard cap is very rare. But the officer corps of the SSVT was also quite small.

Thus, the early species of this cap is the kind of regalia, in fact, that is very unlikely to have survived the march of time. The image of a grey SS cap in many minds is that of a species made for the SS Kleiderkasse in the era 1941-943 or so, and examples are legion in the books and in the collector sphere. The cap in the hands of colleague Violin and the piece that came from Weitze and was in Swabia reflect an earlier variety, the existence of which I have known about since the beginning of the 1970s, but had not seen until recently.

You, Mr Ostermann, have seen the cap and have a leg up on the rest of us. In any case, the thing seems off to a new home and surely that figure might regret they were (wherever that may be...) not in Stuttgart to buy it for 1500 dollars. I, for one, am often seized by regret that I am not somewhere between the Rhine, Black Forest and Danube. I do intend to correct this matter at some point.

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Doug and Donald I would like to think that I know both of you to a certain degree as I have spoke with you both and have done good business with you both. I respect your collective knowledge. Unless I missed something Doug I did not see anywhere that Donald singled you out for criticism or otherwise. Donald, just an aside I didn't know that you were one of those that cast negative comments on Derek's visor. Had I known I would have been sensitive and would not have brought it up as an example. You are both valuble members/contributors to this forum and it would be ridiculous to allow a perceived slight to come between you.Perhaps accept the offer of a telephone call. From my own experience many a similiar call has cleared up many computer misconceptions cheers, Ryan

My friend,please do not worry in the slightest and thanks for the kind intervention. I make no secret of my many faux pas (what is the plural of same?...) and my cardinal failings. In the case of the field cap in black, I was so utterly wrong and I exclaim it from the roof tops as an example of my own limits. I wish all viel Sammlerglueck. PS. I have also examined a Wagner officers cap, ex- Barrandov film Fundus, which has the latter variant of party colored brown rayon lining as found in late (post 1937/8 or so..)NSDAP caps. When I first saw this cap, it was a shock---I thought that the interior had to be black...----but the piece was 100% real, even if the badges might have been fiddled with. The early SS Sonderanfertigung caps came with a reddish-brown silken lining, as illustrated in many images in this thread; there is a species of later cap with a rayon lining, identical to said NSDAP caps. The lining of the earlier Sonderanfertigung black caps is also similar to the silken lining of early NSDAP caps. It is quite distinctive in fact. Stezelberger has more than one such cap on this site via comparison to some of the images I have enclosed here. I shall post images later. My best wishes to all and, once more, my comments were of a general nature and directed at no one figure here other than when I have expressly mentioned someone's name. I hope for all concerned that the cap in question is: a.) authentic and b.) that the new owner will let me look at it one day. sapere aude.

Ahh Mr Grumpy, Many thanks for your extra images and information on the construction, your super shots tell all,a marvelous original banner that you must be proud to own,,,

I must say that I for one ask our Dear colleague in California his expertise if I come accross " out of the norm" peaked caps and very often do I forget to offer my thanks on a return mail !! Donald always reply's constuctivly and indeed is a valued confidant in this shark infested hobby,,, Stephen

Dear Steven, you are always the picture of impeccable manners. How could it be otherwise in the case of such a gentleman? schoene Gruesse, DA

Apropos materials used in officer's caps with runic embellishments. Exhibit a) the cream/ light yellow shade of silk in an early Mueller cap. More or less identical to colleague Violin's cap.

another example. Also of Mueller, but the variant with the name logo in the pre-1936 configuration. This is silk or rayon. Likely the former.

This is the darker, more reddish variant of silk, identical to that used in early party caps...

here is an example of more or less the same fabric in a political cap...

Here is the later sort of political lining fabric, in rayon, in this case in a tunic...it seems to me that it is this type of fabric in the grey cap in question...at least from the images... I have seen this exact material also used in black caps...indeed, I have a picture of just such a Mueller cap, but the file is too large for this locale.

another example of this color....or shade of same...the latter rayon color. Maybe someone has an image that will fit in this space of the color I mean. My files are too weighty...

Here the earlier, silken reddish shade once more...

an early cap with the reddish silken interior, a Wagner/BS of very early make...note the leather peak, by the way...

It would seem that the posting of the images of my cap may have been fortuitous to Bill and the sale of his cap. No one should feel badly at passing on such a cap as few have( it is my understanding)ever seen one. It is my understanding that there may be a couple of others known to exist but they are NOT IN VERY COLLECTABLE CONDITION. My only concern about the Shea cap would be the lack of both tags and the condition looking so new. Certainly it could be so and that is no sole criteria for exclusion. Remember these caps are almost 70 years old and were worn possibly for years before the war started and before they could be a war trophy to be preserved. The one thing that most strikes me about my cap is the overwhelming since and feel of time, distance and age the cap imparts. Absolutely impossible to duplicate correctly although many try. David

Dear David, esteemed "violin.." You have the great fortune of an exceptional piece, with character and patina sufficient for twenty caps. Your photos are also first rate and your piece is also identical in its key traits to its black twins in their number. The cap on the Shea site may be a variant; it may not be. Maybe an insidious and cunning fake, modeled after your cap! Ein Witz... Worse has happened, but Shea himself is an advanced SS collector, is he not? I cannot generalize about this cap without seeing it in person and now it is on its way to its new owner. Perhaps he will post further images; perhaps it will vanish never to be seen again. I would note, though, that in the Heinrich Hoffmann volume published in 1937, Hitler abseits vom Alltag, there is a cap identical to the Shea piece on a page (unnumbered...) where AH is greeting the multitude at the foot of the drive to the Berghof. The cap is grey, with same Hussarentotenkopf. As concerns tags, I have seen more than one authentic black SS cap without its tag, which, somehow, was lost in the fullness of time. The RFSS tag was phased out ca. 1938, I think. I believe it was in use for about four years, i.e. 1934 'til 1938. I believe the bevo tags generally went by the boards about then, but this is a guess. Because the sweat diamond is gone, the RFSS tag may also have fallen out. Who knows?

Once more, we all rejoice in your authentic cap and thank you for showing it to us. Someday you must get all of Eberhard's file from the BA Berlin and share it with us.

Don, as always I thank you for your kind words. I most certainly must get the records from Germany as that is all that is left. I have most of the US records certainly. I hope that the Shey cap is real. I have some photos of an officer of the LAH with this gray cap and the Hussarentotenkopf in ware so we know that such can be the case as you stated. I will try to down size it and post it if I can. David

Thank you., dear colleague. If I can help you with the Bundesarchiv in Berlin, please let me know. I have contacts there. That Eberhard was in the SSTV is a very intriguing point. As concern other images, in fact, Sepp Dietrich wore a grey cap with the Wehrmacht Hoheitszeichen and the Hussarentotenkopf ca. 1934/5, I believe--or maybe it was black. Such is shown in the various recent German illustrated bios on him as well as on the LAH. Hitler visited the LAH Kaserne in the Finckensteinallee at the end of 1935, and there are numerous images of the officers in grey at this early date. Derek Chapman surely can add vital data on this score. In any case, all the best to you, dear colleague, for sharing your treasure. As to the Shea cap, fate shall reveal more to us, or not. Herzlichst, DA

another image of the later rayon lining of NSDAP caps, also used in black officer caps ca. 1938 as well...

a later Mueller Sonderanfertigung with the cream or yellow lining, here without the runes...however, quite authentic...notice as well here the paper sweat band. The Sonderanfertigungen did come with this cheapo sweat band...

The subject of the introduction of grey peaked caps for the SS-VT and SS-TV is an interesting one and perhaps worthy of its own thread. The earliest grey caps were field caps for men, which seem to have been introduced sometime in 1934. The leaders' grey caps were possibly adopted the same year although the early photos I have of them being worn are unfortunately undated.
As pointed out above the Leibstandarte officer corps had the grey service caps prior to the summer of 1935 as well as grey field caps.
For those interested, a thread on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum illustrates a rare example of the officer's field cap.
Derek

Derek,
Try finding the thread you mention on WA. can you tell me the name of this thread and it's location?
Thank You
John
JF

quote:

Originally posted by John F.:
Derek,
Try finding the thread you mention on WA. can you tell me the name of this thread and it's location?
Thank You
John
JF

The chap who posted the headwear goes by the screen name of z.b.V. 500. The cap is described as "salty.." It is also a remarkable piece, of a kind seen by few mortals.

quote:

Originally posted by derek chapman:
The subject of the introduction of grey peaked caps for the SS-VT and SS-TV is an interesting one and perhaps worthy of its own thread. The earliest grey caps were field caps for men, which seem to have been introduced sometime in 1934. The leaders' grey caps were possibly adopted the same year although the early photos I have of them being worn are unfortunately undated.
As pointed out above the Leibstandarte officer corps had the grey service caps prior to the summer of 1935 as well as grey field caps.
For those interested, a thread on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum illustrates a rare example of the officer's field cap.
Derek

Dear Sir, as your devoted pupils please enlighten us on this score. Is my assessment of the Holden cap correct or a foolish guess? I assume that the Kleiderkasse and the VA price lists must have begun to include grey peaked caps at a point, at the latest by 1937 and likely earlier. Further, I assume that certain of these caps had the same markings, as visible in the Holden cap, as the more well known species of black SS cap. Many thanks to all for their kind aid in this arcane matter. danke vielmals.

Rather than steer this thread away from its focus on black items I have started a post on the introduction of grey caps.
Derek

Can't wait to read on the gray cap!

Hope others still can feel free to post anything
SS.

But the thread has turned interesting!

As most know these fine items of time must be treated with care!

Threads are getting weak and the pulling and looking for tags and marks and such takes a toll.

I am trying to take pics so I can save the wear and tear of these beautys!

As prices rise, we must protect our investments
and preserve history!

Many fine items get manhandled by fools at shows!

At the last Jag, Tom Wittman had a 25k sword
blade on display when some skin head freak
grabbed it by the blade, before Tom spotted
this fool!

Armband friend brought in to show me!

PVON

PVON

tag

Oh! And the fool firmly had the item with both
hands!

Your point as to the fragility of this regalia is well taken. The arm band is very nice. The VA tag "21/34" begs the questions of: a.) who was "21"; b.) who were the other 20 contracts in 1934? c.) how did this system work with the SS and the RZM? Some of the clues are in Mollo, but you have to read between the lines.

Hi Paul, would you mind posting these pics of my SS Mess Dress for a member of theStaff of the RFSS . On the topic "lets see something black" GDF" its quite a nice thread .

This is for collector Jim Toncar

PVON

hmmmmmmm, Thats a good looking piece of cloth. A mess dress?.

Paul, these skinheads with the rampant hands are on this earth for a reason and that would be soft tissue tests.

Kris

quote:

Originally posted by pvon:
Hi Paul, would you mind posting these pics of my SS Mess Dress for a member of theStaff of the RFSS . On the topic "lets see something black" GDF" its quite a nice thread .

This is for collector Jim Toncar

PVON

An astonishing piece. Does it have a story to it? A very impressive piece of regalia. Was it replaced by the shorter version with the kitschy badge? This earlier garment is not, I believe, mentioned in the 1940 Kleiderkasse list. Viel Sammlerglueck. PS I must buy the two other volumes of Beaver, as I only own one...

by way of context, here is the press spokesman Otto Dietrich so clothed... I have run out of little, tiny images to post for this thread.

Donald, the Mess Dress tunic was worn at afternoon functions, the tuxedo at formal evenings functions. The Picture you show is of Press Chief Dietrich wearing a Overcoat (notice shouldereboard) This pattern mess dress tunic does not have a shoulderboard , although on a SS Generals tunic it does have the light grey lapels, I will ask Paul to post pictures of Karl Wolffs Mess dress for me which show the Light grey lapels . The Mess Dress tunic has to be considered the rarest of all SS tunics by far.
jim

This is Gruppenfuhrer Karl Wolff's Mess Dress, dated 1936, made by the prestigious firm of "Christian Schwarz&Sohn, Munchen" .The sleeve eagle on this tunic is of the finest quality I have ever seen, mess dress tunics are never worn with a Brassard. It came from Wolff's Residence in Tergansee .Enclosed also is a picture of a Oberfuhrer at a afternoon HitlerJugend function wearing the Mess Dress tunic , finding pictures of this tunic in wear are really quite hard.
jimtoncar

Hey Jim

Anytime you need a picture taken to show our members I volunter!

If I could get John Pepera also I would be a kid in a candy store!

Glad you are adding to this thread for the many members that do not know you!

This quality giving to collectors,members or
plain old people interested in history, is to be
commended.

I could just sit back and listen to the knowledge here!

Jim

Tell us of the quality when you look at a piece such as this in person!

Pictures could never do justice!

Showing for Jim T

Glad to see Ohio is well represented in
preserving SS stuff!

I bet the visor looks nice?

For some reason the pic went small on me.

Will have to check why!

PVON

Mr. Toncar:

I have admire part of your collection in the exelent Shiffer books, wich I have severals. Pieces like this are not only rare and beautyful but give you a view of the amount of refinese and importance that was given to almost every part of goverment control deparments during the Third Reich, wich still works perfectly in the human eye, since we collectors are still in shock every time we see one of this magnificent pieces.

A truly espectacular pieces, thanks for sharing.

Federico Perez

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
Donald, the Mess Dress tunic was worn at afternoon functions, the tuxedo at formal evenings functions. The Picture you show is of Press Chief Dietrich wearing a Overcoat (notice shouldereboard) This pattern mess dress tunic does not have a shoulderboard , although on a SS Generals tunic it does have the light grey lapels, I will ask Paul to post pictures of Karl Wolffs Mess dress for me which show the Light grey lapels . The Mess Dress tunic has to be considered the rarest of all SS tunics by far.
jim

Dear Sir, I understand the above. I just had this nice picture of Dietrich which cried out for inclusion somewhere. The Gesellschaftanzg of yours, double breasted, with the piping is remarkable, of course, as is your material generally. Did not Shea sell off one of these connected with v. Ribbentrop's aide, who was later executed in the wake of the 20 July? Or was this piece from your collection, instead? In any case, thank you for the images from your world renowned treasures. Does anyone in Europe have similar material? Thank you for posting and we await all future pictures from your Schatzkammer. Viel Sammlerglueck.

Donald, yes I did own the Thorner tunic and sold it to finace the Wolff tunic . At the sums of money needed to collect anymore it is hard to keep everything. I like SS Generals stuff the best especially when it can be traced to the vet bringing it back.
jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
Donald, yes I did own the Thorner tunic and sold it to finace the Wolff tunic . At the sums of money needed to collect anymore it is hard to keep everything. I like SS Generals stuff the best especially when it can be traced to the vet bringing it back.
jim

Dear Colleague, thank you. We celebrate your collection and your refined taste. The Dr. Willi Meerwald field grey uniform ensemble that turned up the Presidio Army Museum would have suited your taste to a tee. It was a Holters tunic and overcoat, and I think an Ehrendegen. The peaked cap was non descript and likely from the Kleiderkasse without much embellishment. The ensemble is now at Fort Knox, I think, still within the army history system. I worked at the museum when it appeared there around 1976 or 1977, I think. It was on par with the rest of your material. Thank you for your images and we are eager to see more. Viel Sammlerglueck.

Here is Mr Tomcar,s ex fine mess dress tunic once belonging to Thorner,very true about these very expensive wollens to finance other collections!,,,, Stephen

Stephen,

What is the uniform with the swallows nests? That is really unbelieveable. Do you still own that one?. I would like to have that.

Thank you,

Kris

quote:

Originally posted by HOOPER 2:
Here is Mr Tomcar,s ex fine mess dress tunic once belonging to Thorner,very true about these very expensive wollens to finance other collections!,,,, Stephen

Thank you, dear colleague, your ensemble is very impressive, indeed. Your tableau reminds us of your excellent taste as well as how these textiles make their way to the ends of the earth.

...I should say to the center of the earth, in fact.

GD stands for

Gone down forum!!!!!

I see no action on a superb thread we had going!

Shame!!!

Good job on everyone leaving!

Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is a few more SS visors to show!

This I looked at at MAX!!!

2

nco

Here was a nice one!

officers inside!

tag

officer

Paul,,,,,,,,,,,,, Thanks to yourself Robert H, Darryl P and others for posting as always there fine collections.Some of us are still here but nothing to show forum members what we have bought for awhile.
We can just hope that Donald A, Bob C and other great collectors will vist us and post, if time permits in the future. Stephen

Not everyone collects "Black". You know there was much more to the SS after 1935 than just the "Black" The Waffen SS and Foreign Volunteers,the SD and the Totenkopf verbande.A superb Frundsberg tunic was recently posted one of the premier divisions at Arnhem in September 1944 yet only a few commented. Not many collectors buy the Black stuff its overpriced and over rated in many cases, so most are priced out of this side of collecting now and have lost interest.Some just like to look.

Posting pics is free! Taking pics is free!

Sharing pics is free!

Looking is free! Once you pay!

Hell I can't buy all either!

But I took pic so others can see and learn!

I am!

Waffen I know nothing!

But at shows collectors and such can take pics!

I took hundreds for the Bob Rodgers forum!

I try posting some!


I just like to show many things I have seen!

Show SS

These shows are long over but can still be used to learn!

All these hats sold as one group at last Max!

A steal!

He let me take many pics for people to see
later!

Waffen and such I let others say!

Here is something!

pic

I don't mind sharing the pics!

I just want to know someone is breathing!!!

PVON

I hear you P. That merch. Ken had was super fine. Hell I was lucky enough to get 1 SS dagger out of him!

Yes Paul, this is super thread!

I love to see your pics. more blackies!!

"do not forget the side profile of that #381"
Thanks

JaV

Well youre right Paul this forum has sunk to the bottom.

Hello Paul, a superb thread. After 4 months or so 351 responces, 7870 views. You should be proud of your thread. One really doesnt need to buy referance books these days with this sort of content. For anyone to declare it to be bottomed(sunk)etc.out is wrong. I dont collect SS but the thrill of viewing the premier items as such at a click of the finger for all is a great service. I have many collecting friends few of which collect SS but we all agree the the Black SS is easily the most desirable and worth every cent. Overpriced, overrated not a chance. They all can spend afternoon etc. rolling thru threads as yours. Keep up the good work. Regards Bill Bourque

Coming back up from from the bottom,,,,,

And also one for you John P,,,,,

SS MUSIC DIAMOND,I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANOTHER EXCEPT IN THE FAMOUS SS CLOTH BOOK.

Hooper,I dont think the tabletop of caps/helmets is yours?I think they belong to a friend of mine??
Credit them?
Seiler (Yank in UK)

How rare are the black SS coffee can kepis circa early 1930s? They seem to be not as popular as the post '35 styles - yet they must be harder to find. Are the later "blackies" the more classic style everyone wants?

Seiler (Yank in UK)[/quote]

quote:

Hooper,I dont think the tabletop of caps/helmets is yours?I think they belong to a friend of mine??
Credit them?
Seiler (Yank

Seiler,
Im afraid your everything that makes members from this site give up and leave!
You have commented on something that does not concern you and is personnel. This thread is about posting black items for other members to view for their pleasure and learn the contruction and traits etc of this SS cloth,as long as they are ORIGINAL.
For your infomation two of the headgear on the table belonged to me.
I do hope your pockets are as big as your keyboard as you seem to mix with the high flyers of this business.
I will take leave and just visit odd times from now on. I do hope that you can step into the small void I have left and show your collection from now on,,,
Adios my friends,,,,,,,,,, HOOPER

Stephen you are an asset to this forum and to the hobby. Re think your decision. I just posted on the dagger forum as there is a spat that is in progress there as well. The reason that this forum is dying is principally due to the crap disturbers who have nothing better to do than to insult, be-little and attempt to provoke. Seiler we all know to whom some of the items in the picture belong, it is no secret and it has been discussed previously. I recall that the owner gave his blessing to his friend Stephen to post pictures. Perhaps you should apologize and/or mind your own business. I do not see the forum police icon next to your name. What is it about the SS forum that brings out the worst in everyone? I have collected this "stuff" since 1982 with an interest dating back to 1972. I have liquidated collections of daggers, Allgemeine, political and military visors. I have now made the decision to leave this hobby and persue other areas/interests. I will sell off the remainder of my Third Reich collection in the next month.I previosly sold my political visor and tunic collection and bought a corvette convertible. In all honesty it brought me more joy than the collection ever did. My decision has nothing to do with this forum. I will continue to travel to the SOS with Darryl Pajot (as long as he wants to) and will remain a member of this forum. No one here will make my decisions for me. cheers, Ryan S

Mr Lee,
You have my apology if I caused offense.
Seiler

Ryan-
Cheap shots from those who never offer anything from their collection(most don't have one), have little to no reference library and little to no respect for their peers have successfully begun the road of destruction for most of the Forums. Moderators and webmasters who allow such behavior to continue without a cost are also to blame. The majority of the older, wiser collectors see no need to subject themselves to such company. Neither do I. Sad what once was so promising has become a conduit for the rude, the ignorant and the uninformed.
Bob Coleman

Hi Bob you are of course correct in your assessment. You and I have had our differences in the past and we have also concluded mutually rewarding transactions. I have always repected your knowledge and experience. It far out weighs my own in certain areas. I have also admired your loyalty to friends.I would still like to think that I would be able to pause and say hi at your table anytime without need for embarrassment. Seiler has offerred apology and that is all anyone can ask.As long as we are men enough to admit our mistakes than this forum has a future. Disension can exist and opposing debate is healthy, but a lack of civility is plain ignorance and it benefits no one. I still lament the departure of Donald Abenheim and others of his stature. cheers, Ryan

Is there anyone left to comment on my question - of the rarity of the early 30s black SS coffee can kepi vs, the '35 & up new style visor? The SS kepis are priced the same - but surely they must be rarer?

Please note , I am not expert, just stating my opinion. I believe the early 1930's /late 1920's coffee can hats are rarer than the visor caps. Reason for the price is the same. no idea.I believe most collectors like the look of the visor than coffee can look. But who knows. Just collect what your interest are and what you like . You will enjoy in the long run.


Joe Semen

Thanks - that's just what I was thinking - the later "saddle form" visor is more common but in greater demand. It's what you see in the movies - & on "Hogan's Heroes". I've been watching the series on DVD & the uniforms seem right on target - surprisingly I guess.

Brian,
I would agree with the observation that both you and Joe have made. That is, that a black EM visor is MUCH more common than an SS coffee can kepi.
As for price, my belief is that the black EM visors are uniform enough that most collectors can tell originals from fakes (although the fakes are getting better all the time). Since this is the ONE piece of ss headgear that most collectors feel comfortable buying as an 'original' item that they can trust, they are willing to put up to $5,000+ into one.
Although an original black kepi is much more rare, most collectors have trouble trusting them and thus are not willing to put big bucks into one.
Just my opinion.
Doug

MOST SS COFFEE CAN HATS YOU SEE ARE FAKE,I GOT ONE FROM ONE OF THE BIG LONG TIME DEALERS IN GERMANY AND IT LOOKED SO GOOD TILL I HAD A HAT EXPERT DO A HANDS ON AND GAVE ME A ONE PAGE DETAIL REPORT OF HOW FAKE IT WAS.I WAS SO LUCKLY TO GET MY MONEY BACK.FOR MY COLLECTION"NO COFFEE CAN SS HAT,S"

FAKE AS CAN BE!!!!!!!

Im glad to see that this thread is 'back on track'
at least as far as I can gleen..and that those who
feel that may have posted something others took offense
to have apologized for any apparent postings or misunderstandings
that may have taken place..that is always encouraging
to see and is ultimately how people and collectors
specificially on the the forum should treat each other.
I think this particular thread is very informative and
wonderful to view..especially for individuals such as myself
who do not collect Allgemeine items. I dont..nor do I collect
in a whole host of areas..daggers, medals, political. para
military, so its a great thread to learn and admire those
who are so dedicated to collecting these rare and ellusive
areas of our hobby. I must say that I dont share John'
asessment of those who post simply to show and then turn
around and sell their items. Some people collect and hold on
to their items for decades..some people for years..some for
months..or weeks..its simply their perogative..they can do
with their items what they please..and its really none of our
business how and when they dispose of their items, once
they have paid for the items..the could if they chose simply put
it all in a pile..douse with gasoline and set the whole heap
on fire.,.bottom line..its THEIR stuff..so if they want to sell
the items quickly after purchase..so what? There is the argument
that this does nothing but drive up prices..however..when have
prices in every area NOT been driven up over time? If someone
has a problem with the prices..that is not something any of
us can do anythingabout..all but stop buying theitems..which
is always our own perogative.simply put..if the price is too
high..which for many items for myself personallly are becoming
unaffordable..then we simply have to purchase that which is
affordable..or save more over time and purchase less. Prices
in most any serious areas of collecting continue to appreicate
with the internet.. and I well imagine people in other collector
areas are having the same discussion. My point.rather longwinded
is that its really not fair to chastise something that they have
purchased and sell after short period of time..its their property.
Others have also been quick to fault those who collect for 'investment"..
I collect for the love of the history and the appreciation of the items
but I would be remiss and downright stupid if I didnt consider
the investment potential of items...why would I or anyone want to
consider spending 10K or 5K or whatever of an item if they didnt
think that one day they might want to sell the item to AT least
get their money out and a fair return on the dollar at a furture time?
People go through many stages in their lives..wether it be children
college.homes..marriages.and unless one simply is printing money
has a money tree in the backyard..or several million dollars, then
one MUST in my opinion consider purchases of the value we deal in
today as an investment...it dosnt mean the person is any less of
a collector or any less dedicated..so I dont agree with those
who belittle or chastise collectors for looking out for their
money spent. As to the "collector of old"..one must also understand that many many collectors bought substandital quantities of NOW very very valuable items decades ago..30, 40, 50 years ago when these items were worth next to nothing..they could do so becasue of the relative inexpensive nature of the items..and hold on to them because they didnt have a 'siginificant investment' tied up in the items. I also know several of the "older collectors" who are also selling much of their "old" collection, and trust me..they arnt asking 70 80's or 90's prices, they are not stupid, and are getting as much as they can out of their collection. To do otherwise would not be prudent.
Lastly...others have opined that its the "moderators and site
administrators" who allow bad behavior to continue and the forum to
go into a downward spiral. I cannot sit on the fourm 24/7 and act as
a hall monitor to watch every single post and wait with baited
breath for every possible offensive post..I saw the nasty turnof this
thread yesterdya when I logged on..after having spent four days
going back and forth to the hospital for test after test..
getting little sleep and so on and so forth...its also incumbent
upon those who post on the forum to act responsibly and with enough
civility towards on another..no amount of monitoring and watching
is going to change the basic nature of some individuals for a
variety of reasons to act childishly..that is beyond my control, as is
logging on every hour every day to monitor what is trasnpiring..So
enough said for now..and I hope those that enjoy this thread
and forum will continue to post and share their knowledge and fantatic
collections no matterhow big or small so that we all my learn and enjoy
this hobby...its all what we make out of it.

Well I thought its time to add some pics from Max show I took.

I sure hope the stupid stuff from some will cease and allow more postings for others!!!

TW had this at MAX

PVON

2

3

4

I saw a few SS black officers for sale at MAX!

$11.000.00 and a Generals for $22K I believe.

Same guy had a Waffen SS for $5,000.00 I believe and some other stuff!

Hope Jim Arrasmith will chime in as he took a good look at them .

Peter Jenkins had a SS coffee can also that was real!

I did talk in depth with Peter on our smoke breaks.

Always enjoy talking to him and him sharing
some stories on many superb items and where they are.

We both missed Bob Coleman at the Max!

A black single decal came in the show and Norman
got it.!

Here is Bill Rannows blackie!

BR

Price tag on visor NCO

x

This had a super saddle shape owner thinks is a upgrade from NCO.

Hope Jim A will explain what he thought after seeing!

Maybe some others took some pics at Max, or will add some stuff to this thread also that they bought!

Hint!!!!!! Hint! I know who you are and what you bought!

Also a uniform was sold at Max from Chris at Oak Leaf!

that is one nice cap you have there my dream kindregards .

I AM GOING TO START LOOKING AT FM/SS ITEMS NOW THAT I HAVE THIS.

BF.LOTS OF VERY NICE STUFF

HAY!!!PVON DO YOU HAVE ANY NEW BLACK STUFF?

FROM DACHAU,SS BARRACKS DOOR."OUR REICHSFUHRER GUARD FORCE-DACHAU"

Hi Jim

See ya at SOS

PVON

wow jim that would look nice on my door

ONE OF THE HIDDEN JEWELS FROM THE LAST MAX.ITS THE SAME ONE THAT IS ON TOM WHITTMANNS SS BOOK PAGE 392.I GOT IT FROM ARTHUR HAYS,WHO GOT IT FROM HOWARD CROUSE A FEW YEARS AGO.MR.CROUSE HAD IT WHEN IT WAS PUT IN THE SS BOOK.HE GOT IT FROM A VET WITH OTHER SS ITEMS YEARS AGO.THE VET WAS WITH THE FIRST AMERICANS IN TO DACHAU.TOM WHITTMANN SAID HE GUESSED IT WAS FROM A PLAQUE BEARING A DEDICATION.I MET HOWARD CROUSE AS I WAS BUYING THIS,HE CAME BUY TO SEE ART HAYS AT HIS TABLE,AND HE TOLD ME WERE HE GOT IT AT.

looks like its quit heavey do you think you will ever part with it

SOME DAY I WILL,I TESTED MY KID OUT ABOUT YEARS FROM NOW.I WANT YOU TO HAVE A FEW OF MY DAGGERS WHEN I DIE.THE FIRST THING OUT OF HIS MOUTH WAS WE CAN SELL THEM ON E-BAY.I THOUGH "WHY DID I ASK"THEY WILL ALL BE SOLD FOR ME TO HAVE A GOOD TIME LATER ON DOWN THE ROAD.

back up dont wont to lose this

Jim Arrasmith,

I bought Howard Crouse's SS S/D M40 helmet from Dachau that came from the veteran along with your plaque.

I love it.

John

JOHN,HOWARD SAID HE ALSO GOT AN SS HELMET FROM VET,HE THOUGHT IT WAS AT HOME.MAYBE HE HAD TWO OR FORGOT HE SOLD IT TO YOU.THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I MET HIM.

This fine thread is still around!

Somebody must have missed it!

PVON

Here is my only black tunic,#58 Koln district. Hope to add some day an enlisted,NCO black tunic some day......if I find it!!!

SIDE

The helmet is an SS-RZM,the chinstrap is "home made" using an original carabine clip and vintage leather.....it's a filler until I find an original. The D.E. flag/pole are reproductions....but I like it a lot and it didn't cost me my house and car to have.

I like this angle very much

The officer collar tabs wich are not a matching set, but make a good representation. They where sold as individual pieces but I could not resist to put them as a pair.

I must thank Robert Hassler for the oportunity to add this pieces to the collection.

back of tabs, in the first picture the flash "blow" a little the detail, in person looks very,very good.

And my last black piece of militaria, an NCO visor cap and Deutschland officer cuftittle with paper RZM tag, the eagle is the common tropical version also with paper RZM tag.

I should have take it out of the display cabinet but that is a little proyect in itself!!!

Great looking pics!

So many goodies!

PVON

A perfect nice black tunic display with taste!

FM/SS HONOR PIN,BEYOND INCREDIBLY RARE.

THE BACK,THIS IS A REAL ONE.

IT HAS A WHITE TAG INSIDE

Never seen one of those pins Jim And like the cap a very nice shape,,,,,,, Stephen

Guys,

Fantastic thread throughout! Superb to write the very least. Every image here is a true pleasure to the eye.

Stephen, I've always loved your collection and your posts. You are a real heavyweight to this forum without a doubt. This also goes for all the guys that post their 'Black' attire.

Spot on!

Kind regards,

Davey

-Named Junker-Schule Tölz ensemble (on original Obermaier)
-Named "Deutschland" great coat to one person very close to AH
-TV-Oberbayern tunic

Robert H. and Pvon thanks for the kind words.

Hooper......SIMPLY AMAZING!!!!!

This is a great tread and the advace collections shown are simply out of this world, an inspiration to all of us...THANK'S

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
-Named Junker-Schule Tölz ensemble (on original Obermaier)
-Named "Deutschland" great coat to one person very close to AH
-TV-Oberbayern tunic

Robert as I said before......your collection is magnificent. A true time machine of history!! I love the DEUTSCHLAND one....some day,some day!!!

THANKS for sharring it with all the collector comunity.

Holy Cow!!!!

Magnificent looking goodies Hooper,Jim A,
Robt H!and so many others!

I want to take the time to tell many of you
thanks for sharing these unique peices of history.

Sharp and brillant pictures by many posting
have made this thread exceptional.

My day has been made by seeing these treasures!

PVON

Wolferido, Nice leaders ensemble and collection, I also admire your photografic skills!! Robert,,, now they are in great collection, manifico
Paul, Many thanks for starting a great thread on these cloth goodies,,
A few more caps,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

A FEW MORE FM PINS.

BACKS

I LOVE THE MAG ALSO.

2

3

MY GUY

FROM DACHAU.

quote:

Originally posted by jim arrasmith:
I LOVE THE MAG ALSO.

I hope some day to find one of this magazines for my collection, every time I find one is allready sold This one you show is a magnificent cover, Robert Hassler had one for sale(I was late to that one to!) wich had a marvelous cover with two trooper and the standarte regimental flag.....just superb!!

My family of Allgemeine officers.

John, simply outstanding quality !

John

Well I know you own all those beautys as I have seen in person!

You sir are the real deal hands down!

PVON

Well said Paul.
Johns the Real Deal.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

My other Allgemeine tunic...LAH

..side view

...and the maker

Little update in my modest collection:

1. Foreign volunteer shields

2. SS tabs icluding a nice pic of Dachau style lion tab in wear and three rare photos of Belorussian(Weissruthenische) SS.

Huge amounts of "eye-candy" to look at here, thats for sure:-) Thank you for sharing with us all. I have been wondering about the following; why does one so seldom see Allg.SS tunics with the 1914 EK II ribbon in the buttonhole?(The only one I have seen is actualy on one of the uniforms in this thread) Does anyone know the regulation/practice on this?

Is it realy nobody that has any knowledge around this subject?

Nice collection Askold and very nicely displayed! Please drop me a line if you would, as I'd really like to know, roughly, where about's in Canada you live . . . Regards, ~ Ian

Great stuff!

Lets get this SS thread moving again.

SS

PIC

Very nice pins Jim.....Thanks for sharing...especially like the box....cheers, Ryan

I got the box at the SOS the next day after I met you.

a good score and a rare find...which went to a deserving chap...congrats, Ryan

Early Style

Closeup..

Inside....

HEY - Don't forget ME !!!

Inside..

BOO !!

Wonderful items i could look at all day long posted here!! Here is my contribution!!

Cheers,

hdmarley

unresearchable number at the moment

my pair

pair reverse

And here is my little black pin collection. I just love these little beauties.

pins

I have never had a chance to get a FM/SS membership book.I guess I will just see if one is for sale new in these current mags.

2,Love the dagger!!!

3

4

pins

Hey Jim! Wonderful magazines my friend. We spoke about them over on worldwarmilitaria.com before a trip you were about to go on! I only have one magazine as they are hard as well to pick up. I love the fencing edition.

Wonderful items Jim!!

Cheers,

hdmarley

Here is my FM magazine.

I went on a 3 week vacation, was great in Jamaica.But no nazi in sight.I always liked that issue of the 3 SS guys and the kids.

Agree, Jim - That photo is a CLASSIC!!! Those youths look like they're safe, and in good hands. Outstanding!!

nice thread !

IF there is still any one out there... N I C E thread. this is exactly what this forum should be !! One rarely finds any good books showing as much stuff in one place. people willing to show off their hard fought collections, taking quality photos ,ect. And most collectors rarely get to find these items "in the wild", and if they do , rarely get to actually look them over. AND this is close as they are going to get. jeff h.

Boy this was a great thread!

Thanks to all that shared!

PVON

Hi Paul, yes takes you back to the good ole glory days of GDC when it was the best forum anywhere with the cream of the collecting world....all the biggest names great posts and threads so many great names and fellows have left GDC over the past few years...............now a shadow of its former self .........what happened???? good to see you posting Paul cheers and best, Ryan

hi members
thank you very m uch for your posting especially pascal b man killer tinics n hats to match they are great looking sorry i have a few nice ss original ss totenkompf overseas hat cloth rzm taged a one looker in very minty condition has metal skull button on front that would match with pascals uniforms plus i have a very rare pair of dutch ss collar tabs belonging to a member of general quislings memen plus i have a few ss trumpet banners and one ss coffin flag like ss obergruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heidrich had at his funeral to drape his coffin all can be talked about at my private e mail if you wish my e mail is nanny1fl@aol.com thanks guy what a great post please keep up the great posting of rare ss cloth that is all most impossible to find in todays market be safe buy from reptible dealers god bless all you guy andy militarynut

hi members
thank you very m uch for your posting especially pascal b man killer tinics n hats to match they are great looking sorry i have a few nice ss original ss totenkompf overseas hat cloth rzm taged a one looker in very minty condition has metal skull button on front that would match with pascals uniforms plus i have a very rare pair of dutch ss collar tabs belonging to a member of general quislings memen plus i have a few ss trumpet banners and one ss coffin flag like ss obergruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heidrich had at his funeral to drape his coffin all can be talked about at my private e mail if you wish my e mail is nanny1fl@aol.com thanks guy what a great post please keep up the great posting of rare ss cloth that is all most impossible to find in todays market be safe buy from reptible dealers god bless all you guy andy militarynut

Woof !

Sorry, I couldn't resist

Obergruppenf?hrer Schatzi

Oberstgruppenpuppy !

LOL

hi guys
his is to much a real photo of obergruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich mit der visor hat woof woof happy fathers day tomorrow to you guys god bless andy militarynut

Just viewed this thread again in its entirety sooooooooo many beautiful items sooooo many departed collectors Paul Von Andy John RIP cheers and best to alllll Ryan S

Ok, the thread is in the uniform section, nevertheless I cannot believe 48 pages and no hr... So I dare to show something -no uniform- black (at least the boxes are :)). Regards,

wotan,

Holy smokes! WOW!

Hello Mikee, glad you like it although it is no uniform.
Regards,

Surely they count as accoutrements.

--dj--Joe

Has some black on it:) I know it is not a uniform and it is old stuff to some.

hi, Ron,

Haven't seen you in a few months. Hope everything is well with you.

Dave

Not really active in collecting anymore, just an occasional spectator. Since my above post is not a uniform posting, feel free to delete. Thanks Ron

The topic title just said "black", Ron, so your ring and its first owner is OK. Show us more if you want.