Greetings,

I recently bought a uniform/standarte group. I were told that there might be an issue with the collar tabs on the tunic, but never got to know if they were good or bad.

I don't know if it's allowed to post a link to a thread in another forum in this forum, as there is larger photos available there as well of the whole group?

If someone here would be kind enough to share their thoughts I would be glad.


Cheers,
Carsten

Right collar tab...

I would have to say the tabs are repro's, as the hump on the bottom of the wings are indicative of repros that came out in the 90's

Hi Laurence,

Thanks You for the reply - much appreciated. However I'm a bit surpriced to hear that as that didn't quite match Your first remark in the other forum.

Since I've posted photos of the full group as well as larger photos of the collar tabs in the other forum, I will continue the discussion there about this issue.

I will of course watch this thread and I still welcome any thoughts.


Cheers,
Carsten

The pictures are not good enough to determine anything for certain. If you could take straight on close ups, this would help.

This would be an extremely rare rank tab at the Orts level. There is even some debate if the rank ever was awarded at Orts level or if it even existed at the Orts level.

Books like LTC John Angolia's, “Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP and SA”, and Robert Ley’s period “Organizationsbuch der NSDAP” show this Ober-Abschnittsleiter as the highest rank within the Orts, subsequent other period material state that it did not exist.

The “Deutschen Uniformen” booklets published after the 1943 Org book indicate that the highest rank within the Orts was the Abschnittsleiter, a single oak leaf.

This was going to be a 1000 year Reich and the Political Leaders did not start out at the highest rank within their job function. A Kreisleiter or Ortsgruppenleiter (which I assume this tunic is?) could be any of the top 5 ranks within their level/rank structure. (These ranks were actually pay grades similar to the US civil servant or postal pay grades.)
Most Kreisleiters were 2 leaf or 2 leaf and a bar (or 2)….seldom ever was a Kreisleiter wearing the top rank of 3 leaves. The same is true at Orts level.

Based on this and what little I can tell from the pictures posted, I would speculate that the tabs are post war.

The piping on these tabs looks proper, as does the base. It's possible that the insignia on the tabs has been upgraded in rank.

Hi expand and Johann,

Good to hear some more feedback - and very interesting as well! Unfortunately I can't make better sized photos as to the 50k posting limit while my orginal photos are 3MB+ in size. I've tried to reduce and cut some of the photos wich I will post, though I'm affraid they wont do the trick.

@expand: Regarding the rank - this is suppose to have belonged to the Oberbürgermeister of a town next to larger city Leipzig called "Leipzig Miltitz".

BTW Would the posting limit be different if I were a paid member?

I don't know if this goes, if not I have to take some verbal spanking and moderator please feel welcome to edit my post and remove link if this is against posting rules. The whole group can be seen here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92946

If someone would like to see the large pictures I can email them.


Cheers,
Carsten

Well here it goes...first an "apetizer shot" of most of the group. Sadly due the size limit I can't use copy protection as that eats up even more "k"'s.

Some better details of the left collar tab...upper part

Lower part of left collar tab...DOH! Just noticed that the file limit has been changed to 75k

The seams of the left collar tab has gone up in one of the edges (maybe deliberately done - don't know though)

A peak inside...

Reverse left side of the collar. Of notice it should be said that the right collar tab is totally undamaged.

Carsten, I like the way the grouping is presented, as this is how the booty was brought home. The olympic suitcase is cool in itself. IMO, this is a well kept uniform, and I like it. Congrats. Having said that, others feel very strongly about seeing those little rounded humps under the eagle's wings. I would like to hear Klaushund's opinion too.

I noticed your post at WAF, that you may be considering returning the set. Again, I think that your set is real, right down to the necktie. The only question is weather or not the tab insignia has been "played with". The base tab and piping is correct, and piping is correctly attached. Here is my PL necktie, which came with a complete vet broughtback set, purchased directly from the vet. Can you post yours too?

Hi herr Flick
A valid point. I stated that it was a nice find, since that time I posted some NSDAP rank tabs i was looking at to buy and I learnt that 1 set I was looking at were considered a repro, for the same reason I mentioned about yours. I don't excepct you to take my word as gospel, just my opinion, and if that fact is refuted I will mention that also. It is still a nice find

Herr Flick-
I concur with Exspand that the photos do not show enough detail to make a judgement these are reproduction collar tabs. First, you know the source of the material. If the information is valid, I would seriously doubt the tunic has been fooled with. Secondly, every other item in your grouping is undoubtedly an original item.
As this paygrade was likey used at the Ortsgruppen level, I don't see any valid reason for just the tabs to be bad. This is the uniform of an Ortsgruppenleiter and the pay grade would concur with level of appointment.
Bob

I'm overwelmed with the feedback - thanks guys

@Johann: Thanks for warming comments as well as posting the tie picture - and it's definetly a match to mine. I'll dig the digicam out tomorrow try to make a matching photo

@Laurence: I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh - not my intention I kind a went probably because I'm a bit cranky about this group wich goes my nerves as I've never got such a unique and expensive group between my hands before - and most likely wont get a chance again for such. To me a dream come true if real, wich is why I hate to see the group fall appart...who wouldn't in such a situation of mine It seems that it at least is very controvercial, if not part dodgy wich would mean put together - hence I'm having a bit of a short fuse as the dream of mine seems to be very fragile.

@Klaushund/Bob: If good weather tomorrow I'll try to sneak the tunic outside for better photos - otherwise I'll do my best with the flash on indoor. I will also do my best to describe the metal of the insignia, though I'm not an expert on this. Sorry I'm a bit thick headed - Do You mean that the rank is a match/appropriate for the title "Oberbürgermeister" ...or?
If that's the case, it does indeed sounds very promissing for me as to what You write, but I better wait jumping from joy untill I've got the answers on the upcomming photos.


Cheers,
Carsten

Oberbürgermeister is simply the mayor of the town. These guys were almost always Ortsgruppenleiters as well,within the NSDAP.
So the rank goes with the title, yes.

An Ortsgruppenleiter could be the top five ranks listed within the Orts level. (see bottom 2 rows below)

(The "right' collar tab would be more useful than the left, can you picture that one as well?)

Hi

@Expand: Thank You for posting the rank chart. Lucky the photos of the right collar tab turned out to be the best I've made today - so I will post a bunch of photos of various details of this collar tab.

@Klaushund: I've had my magnifier and flashlight along to examin the collar tabs. To my big surprice I've missed something that might be of big importance. The left collar tab wich has "lost" the stiches on the upper left corner I had a closer look at. Inside below all the prongs of the insignia there is a paper RZM label wich is printed in light blue colour. Unfortunately I noticed that several hours later after I took the pictures today. I will try and make some shots of it tomorrow (too dark for that now - 7 PM o'clock) though it might be very difficult. If I don't succeed with the photos I hope I can make out what the details says atleast.

As for the construction of the metal insignia I am very convinced that they are made of aluminium. They seems to be semi hollow - though not the type of semi hollow as seen on combat badges - more square alike. I hope You can follow me on what I mean - if not please don't hesitate to ask me to explain better.

First up a photo of the tie for Johann...sorry I didn't had the time to dig out my matching gorget (of note - not a part of the group) to make the shot


Cheers,
Carsten

Following photos are various details of right collar tab only...might look a bit messy but I hope You all manage to get something out of the photos.

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th

7th

8th and last photo for today...I'm beat and going to hit the body shaped couch of mine for a few hours - I will pop in later on (along with a bottle of rootbeer and a box of Kleenex...just in case if any of the two are needed ) to see if You have come up with any interesting news. Once again thank You all for comming to the rescue

NO PROBLEMS WITH THOSE TABS. THIS IS THE SAME RANK I HAVE ON MY ORTSGRUPPENLEITER TUNIC.
BOB

Pheew...I'm releaved - for now that is! My girl friend was very kind to assist me taking photos this morning (she hates this stuff and normaly wont touch it ) and I succeeded getting one decent shot of the RZM label inside the left collar tab. I've also found out what the label says. Below the RZM logo it's printed in black "No. 381155" above that right to the RZM logo it's printed in light blue "M/4" and next to that "28" wich is made with a black stamp. I hope that will prove something one way or the other.


Cheers,
Carsten

Since I'm back to the left collar tab with the RZM label inside, I figured it wouldn't hurt posting the detailed photos of the left collar tab.

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th

7th

8th and last photo

Well that was it for the photos in this round. I would really appreciate if someone had photos of the belived fake/controvercial collar tabs as well as of the known genuine, and posted these on this thread to eliminate any doubts.

I know this probably sounds a bit insane as I were already told they were good, but I like to "wear belt and suspenders" as we say in Denmark when have to be double sure - especially in such cases like this were earlier most oppinions were negative.

Thank You in advance.


Cheers,
Carsten

Carsten, I certainly would be carefull not to do any more damage to that collar tab, in the name of proof! Treat it with tendar hands. Should you ever decide to sell that suitcase as a seperate piece, I'd buy it in a hot second! Congrats on your purchase.

Your Ortsgruppenleiter is just begging for a full mannequin display. Something about red and gold displays!

The blue RZM tag is a very good sign - the fakes in this pattern almost always have improper red ones. I say the set is all good.

I know this is cross-topic, but it may well be that the tunic was worn at the 1936 Olympics, and upgraded a few years later with the 1939 fourth pattern insignia. I don't worry about fabrics not matching (pants, jacket & hat), since they all were made separately and frequently replaced.

Hi All,

I thought there was a big controversy about the bubble on the under side of the wing? Are these now accepted?

Bill Rannow

In my opinion, I think the metal devices on these tabs are post war.

Hmmm...You may be correct, Jeff. Comparing side by side, there are numerous differences here. Neck, wings, feathers, swaz, tallons...Any other thoughts? I was trying here Carsten, but I think that the original assumption that these tabs have been played with, is likely. The differences are really quite striking, when you compare them. In fact, the tallons are terrible. Don't give up, there are quality sets out there. As for this one, I would pass...

Now I'm getting really confused and I think I'm not the only one.

Are there only one pattern accepted as genuine of these collar tabs eagles - and only one maker of these as well...or were there different makers and variants like seen on combat badges?

I'm also curious why the "bumpy" eagles are presumed fakes - are there any proof of this? The only knowledge that has come to me was that they were first seen in the 1990'ies - does that make them outright fake?

If the "bumpy eagles" are fakes I can't get into my head that everything is different vs the shown known genuine example...I mean it wouldn't make sence of producing a fake that didn't look like anything else - all the details are different! Producing a fake it would be made as close to the known orginal trying to decieve people - unless of course we are talking about a fantasy piece...wich these collar tabs obvious aren't.

When looking at these obvious very controvercial tabs I must say that they doesn't exactly look new to me - especially when the looking inside the left collar tab. To me the prongs says old...doesn't that count at all? I've attached a closeup of the prongs - am I all wrong on the observation of the prongs?

You have all probably also seen the photos in the other forum. Are there any signs of the tunic being fake itself? Does the way the collar tabs are applied look foulty?

I'm asking these questions as I simply haven't got a clue on most of these things!

I would like to add that I'm not desperate "wanting this to be genuine" as I can simply return the group - end of story. However as said on the other forum, returning the group would most likely mean split up and sold for profit - hence I'm not letting it rest so easy.

Either way (returning the group or not) I sure would like to get to the bottom of this "bumpy eagle issue" ...don't we all?

@Johann: You are killing me with that magnificent display BTW I am very carefull handling these things. I assured that the tab could get back in place by pulling the string/stiches...otherwise I wouldn't have dared touching the tab in the first place


Cheers,
Carsten

thought i'd wade in..the biggest and most common maker of political insignia eagles is maker m1/177 you will see that on nearly every example you find.the only other one in my collection that isn't is m1/14.based on those pics of the eagles,i can only assume that they are either cast,and that line from the top is a casting seam,or it is die stamped and that line is where the dies meet..i have never seen a fourth pattern eagle that was not made of zinc and was not solid.a very important consideration when looking at eagles,is the swastika and the pebbling behind it.they should be well defined,and prominent,regerdless of how much finish is applied over them.

the number stated before should read m1/34. i see now what you are saying about the construction. this type you are referring to is considered semi hollow body.this eagle with this type of prong attachment would be considered a deluxe style.the m1/177 zinc'ers are usually of lower quality,most found solid,with soldered pin attachments

close up of swaz.notice detail of talons,and wreath,and pebbling in background

Just the fact that there is controversy to begin with over whether these devices are real or not should be enough to make you pass. When you get ready to sell, do you want to have to deal with the same issues with the next guy?

This single oak leaf rank first appeared in the 90’s at the Reich level. They have now started using it at every level. Reich was first because that was the most expensive and fakers got more money at that level. Now that all PL items have gone up, you see this device at every level.

They are faking armbands as well. Have you noticed the glut of Orts level Ortsgruppenleiter armbands for sale? Every dealer has one now. A few years ago you could not find them anywhere. Do you think another warehouse in east Europe was just found full of these too?

Many auctions & dealers have started selling just the PL tunic complete with piping now. No insignia and ready to “make your own PL tunic”. These are also, in my opinion, fake. Again, perhaps another warehouse had these and was recently discovered?

Regarding the age to the prongs, they don’t say old to me. The fakers age this stuff with tea and coffee and all kinds of chemicals that you can’t begin to know. The “age” on the prongs means nothing.

The reason the RZM came into existence was so that things were made exactly as the NSDAP wanted them made. If you get a chance to view RZM regulations or periodicals, do yourself a favor and do so. They sent out probe sets too so that the makers had examples of what they had to make.

So to answer your question, no there were not multiple ways to make these or multiple dies to cast them or various patterns. They were identical and as exact as German precision can be, which is pretty exact.

The blue RZM tag is not a good sign, it is a bad sign. It means the fakers who use to put HJ RZM red tags on these have now become educated (by these forums no doubt) and now put “correct” blue ones on. Ask yourself, if they can counterfeit currency how difficult would that RZM tag be?

The gilt color is incorrect too.

How many more warning/danger/questionable signs do you need?

Probe set examples sent out to makers in order that they comply with RZM regs.

Hi guys these eagles are most often seen on wartime produced tunics. I sold a tab similiar to these on the Orst tunic pictured to political dealer/collector Mike Hansen at the S0S. He stated that some people have issue with them but he has none. Mine was Reichleitung level and also had an RZM tag. Marc Verstrate, forum member and dealer sold me a Kreis level tunic, named, tagged and dated with similiar tabs and single oakleaf. The tabs are as tightly sewn as is imagineable and have settled tightly into the collars. They are stitched with matching stitching as the underside of the collar.The tunic is dated 1941.There is no way that the insignia could have been applied to existing collar tabs. Marc gave me a money back 100% guarantee as to authenticity. Should I be asking for a refund? I have no problem with the tunic as shown and although there are differences that are apparent in the eagles shown I accept the gilt as earlier initial production and the other as later wartime production. I too have seen many of these tabs in varying piping colors. In all instances the manufacture of the tabs and piping was correct. These eagles when indisputably authentic are not scarce and are not comparatively expensive. Political cap eagles can still be found for 40.00 and 60.00 when mint and less for used examples and collar eagles are less. Why fake them at all? Hell, the tabs hardly even sell at all except when they are embroidered. My 2 cents, sorry for the diatribe. cheers, Ryan S

The tabs are but the tip of the iceberg. The point I was making is that with this information, the entire ensemble becomes suspect.

These tabs can be applied today just as they were then...without any sign or evidence of same, to state otherwise is very naive.

The problem with these old original eagles is that you can almost never re-apply them again. The prongs break off!!!

Ryan, it seems funny that you put the same value on your opinion that I had in my mind as I read it...2 cents.

quote:

Reply

Wow is there no end to the sarcasm and abuse? All joking aside, Jeff when are you going to post pictures of that delicious summer Orst tunic that you showed me at the show of shows? I was expecting them a very long time ago. It is a beauty!!! cheers, Ryan S P.S. You know what they say, opinions are like a......., everyone has one.

Ryan, glad you like my hunor!

No one wants to see a silly double breasted white PL tunic.......

quote:

Reply

Maybe I am naive but I would like to think that some of the more respected forum members here are above board. I thought that Marc Verstraete was such a chap. Now if anyone knows or thinks differently I would like to know. Also if Marc does not know his political items after all I would also like to know. I am guilty of trusting some respected and well known forum members. I purchased an officer's kepi from an old time forum friend who is well respected for his knowledge as it pertains to Kepis and SA items. I sold the kepi to a respected forum member who has replied to this very thread who emailed me with some suspicions. I recently did a transaction with another political forum friend and master. The items from his bunker were less than satisfactory.I did not purchase solely based on reputation but on their word as gentlemen and their respective knowledge base. Our dear friend with the group must be as confused as hell. One member, knowledgeable and respected states that he has no problem with the tabs or the uniform as a group and two other respected members say that they have their doubts.On my tunic there is no evidence of any previous insignia that I can see. This means that the tabs had to be blank.Why with such a great piece as my tunic add fake and detectable eagles worth fifty cents when you could spend 20.00 for an authentic pair? I do not see the logic behind it. Its not like an SS tunic where the insignia can be well over 1000.00. These tabs when original are not that expensive and the metal devices are for the most part cheap and available. Just my fifty cents worth. cheers, RyanS

Just a thought. I had my collection purged years back and checked for reproductions. It received a passing grade. The moment 4 years ago that I became a forum member and began buying from forum members I have received 5 fake or tampered with items. What's up with that??? cheers, Ryan Jeff, I for one would love to see pictures of that double breasted tunic.

if the tunic was denazified by just removing the insignia and not the collar tabs,i can see someone getting a replacement eagle to make it complete.hard to do but ??.most of the real tab insignia around that is loose is not in the best condition,so a perfect finish copy would do the trick,i would like to see close ups of the eagle..

Greetings everyone


Sorry for my late reply - I have more balls up in the air than I can catch these days...not good when several unforseen events also occours

I see many valid points for and against hence I haven't been much wiser on the topic to authenticity. As Ryan says; I must be cufused as hell - to that I can only say...YES!

@Stephen: Thank You for chippin in on the RZM label. I don't think the tunic has been modified and it would be unlikely if he only had this one uniform from 1936 to 1945. I've posted what the RZM label said earlier on this thread - What do You think about those numbers (have to say I'm a bit unsure with the prefix "M4/" as one of the prongs covers most of that - however the "4/" is without any doubts) ...are those legit or? Looking in the new book of Yours ...that would be for a belt buckle ...or? Partent my knowledge - I have only collected near two years (primary awards), but if this only say M4 I would be in $hite up to my neck - right?

@Kursk: Thank You for posting Your eagle, I clearly see the differences - for a start my eagles doesn't have pebbled background behind swaztika - but also many other differences as well wich has been pointed out. Is Yours also aluminium or is that one buntmetal? As for larger photos...I don't think my 8 Megapixel digicam can produce larger than posted...well they were orginal larger (3,5 MB in size) but with the 75k limit per picture I can't produce more magic with ACDSee and PhotoShop than what I've already did I'm affraid
However feel free to email me and I can respond with the larger photos.

BTW - For those who have tried to email me but haven't got a respond untill today - I have changed it to one I can read all the time without any trouble.

@Expand/Jeff?: Yes, You have a point with the "red flags"...however I don't agree that all the "flags" are "red". Most can be explained with a good portion of logic. For instance that he couldn't have worn that specific uniform at the Olympics as the insignia is post 1936...OK, that's a fact! But that doesn't mean that this uniform couldn't have belonged to this particular Mayor of Leipzig Miltitz. If You had selveral uniforms and You would like to keep one for souvenier - wouldn't You rather keep the minty unworn one than a well used one? I think that also explains the lack of loops for a GPB wich I think would have been suitable for such a fellow. Again theory - but could well be in my book.

Having in mind that these things told were forwarded from the grandchildren to the "estate cleaner" who forwarded this to my connection who is an old retired gent who again forwarded this to me on telephone. It would be a miracle if none of the things told didn't get slightly bend or misunderstood during such a process - hence that particular uniform was worn at the opening of the 1936 Olympics.

However the collar tabs authenticity...well, those we are discussing now with no proof of one way or the other direction. Second, presuming You have seen the thread in the other forum, I don't have any legit answer to the sticker residue on the pole top wich I would call the second red flag. Those two are my only worries as the uniform are matching in size and none of the items are questionable besides the collar tabs on the tunic wicht itself should be authentic.

BTW I sure wouldn't mind having a closer look at all those nice collar tabs You have posted - impossible to see any details.

Uhmm...I hope I haven't sounded harsh again - if so - definetly not my intention!

Regarding the gold colour I have to say that I'm a lost idiot behind a camera, and the photos posted doesn't show the colour propperly. To illustrate that I have a couple of photos (taken in daylight in shade - with use of flash they would have been even worse I belive) of a Mayer GAB wich has lost its finish totally wich makes it appear as shiny brass alike when looking at it. As You can see the photos taken with the camera wasn't that lucky, and the scan I just made makes it look too dull and dark as well. BTW the cloth I used as back ground is as fire engine red as it gets - not magenta!

If I don't respond before next week it's not that I don't want to, but my girl friend will make a roadkill out of me if I sit the whole weekend in front of the puter while she is here


Cheers,
Carsten

I am still convinced that the rank never existed to begin with.
Ley’s 1940 and 43 Org book says it does and so every book written since has followed that lead.

Many period books published after Ley’s 43 Org book show the highest Orts rank to be Abschnittsleiter.
This book, “Deutsche Uniformen”, is one and here is the plate listing the information.

The rank and party structure were officially under Ley, but he no longer called the shots after 1938 or so. Hess and Bormann did! His Org books were widely ignored and in one area, the Gauleiter put out a memo to those under him to ignore the book altogether.

The Org books also say that at Gau level the highest rank obtainable was Ober-Befehlsleiter when this same book shows it to be Haupt-Befehlsleiter. I know this book to be true in this aspect because I have an example of that rank in my collection.

highest rank in Orts as noted

Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter

Hello,
I agree with Exspend.Those tabs are bad.
Sometime ago I posted a pair I bought from BILL SHEA with the same flaw on the wing of the eagle and I was suspecting they were bad and ALL members that posted opinions said it was good.Even a Reichs level pair with RED RZM label behind.
So I got FAKE items !!
Aylson Doyle

It's quite possible the fakers have moved onto more convincing blue RZM tags. Most of the fake ones you see on these tabs are red (not HJ, because HJ RZM tags had the HJ diamond on the right). Not being red doesn't prove it's real, just that it isn't clearly fake for that reason - it may be fake for other reasons.

What I think you see on the tag is actually "A4" which is an RZM code for certain types of cloth insignia. For a metal RZM code you'd have to look on the back of the eagle or oakleaf bar itself. It should be an M1 number on the wing with logo usually on the opposite side.

I have had original eagles off these patches without destroying them - can be done, but tricky.

Jeff, what a sweet pair of celleon embroidered tabs! Impressive!

Greetings everybody

@Stephen: I've had a carefull look inside the collar tab once more - and it does indeed look like A4 and not M4...phew! However I'm not going to fumble anyfuther with the collar tabs as with my ten thumbs the chances for me ruining the collar tabs or break the splits are at 95%

@Jeff: First let me say that those embrodered collar tabs are what dreams are made of - outstanding condition and very beautiful Thanks for posting those babies

I've dug the matching booklet out from my mess. However my example doesn't have a publication year. I would have been releaved if it had said "published in 1945" as that would have put an end to this issue for good.

However since it isn't so, to me, that makes us go nowhere yet regarding proof of authenticity - remember these tabs are suppose to be war/late war issued regarding to others oppinions. But I totally aggree that it could point in the direction that this rank wasn't suitable for Orts Level...nothing more though!

I will post a couple of the relevant pages and would like to hear what edition Your booklet is as well as if there is a publication year in it.

You and probably most other think I'm stubbern, naive and wont listen. However I do listen and yes, I'm probably a bit naive - but I seek the bullet proof evidence!

Since there is so many things that we never get to know, don't know of yet and new unseen things still frequently pops up, I tend to lean on "Innocent until proven guilty". I think that is fairly reasonable as to my trust towards my contact and friend.


Cheers,
Carsten

Page 1 and 2 of the booklet...

And the page Jeff also posted...

None of these books had the years listed that they were publsihed, unfortunately.
You can tell that this issue was published after 1942 (when the 43 Org book was published) by checking other rank charts as well as the PO chart you posted.

Most people in the hobby want this stuff to be real so bad and have the attitude "innocent until proven guilty". Unfortunately, this is exactly the opposite attitude you need to take in order to prevent bad material from coming into your collection.
This attitude is what the dealers like to see....and like I said, most have it, so you are among the majority.

Gentlemen,
I am not sure if I am beeing able to follow you.
Are you saying that the "flaw" under both wings of a political eagle from a collar tab is OK ?And "may be" because some were made at the end of the war?
And the "red" tag may also be OK too?
Aylson Doyle

I posted a pair of these collar tabs with the hump on the bottom of the wing about a year ago. Jason Burmeister came in with the opinion that this type of collar tab was bad and I agree with with him. Mike

I have several pair of tabs and the detail is amazing on the eagles as compared to the eagle detail on the suspect tabs, I would be concerned, isn't this hobby fun?

Hello again,
Is there a conclusion about the "hump" or "flow" of those NSDAP PL collar insignias ?
I am asking this because I noticed something else very interesting about this. A famous dealer offered a complete NSDAP uniform ensemble a short time ago that I will talk about, but later.
Anyone ?
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

The current consensus is that the bumpy eagles are bad.

bad, repos, not real, post war....how many ways can it be said?

Herr Flick,

You can gauge the approximate year published of these booklets by referencing other books, like the org books, and figure these were published after 1942. To do this you have to look at the rank plates thorugh out the book to determine that. Some ranks were only shown in the 43 org book which were not shown in the previous org book that was publsihed in 1940. They did not publish the org book in 41 or 42. Simple deduction......
To make mattters worse, this book has also been post-war reprinted......I have several original booklets and one post war reprint.

I have been watching this posting on the NSDAP collar tabs for sometime now, and feel its time to intervene. First of all, this posting is generating a lot of comments, and many are viewing it as well, they may not be posting, but are viewing it as it unfolds.

The discussion started about the uniform, then went right to the tabs, the "bump" under the wings of the collar tabs posted at the start of the thread. A simple question was asked if they were good or bad, that was somewhat answered, but again it was asked as to WHY, and as I read this thread, I could not see any explanation as to why there bad. Comments are important, as they can help us to understand why sometimes good or bad, but, this forum depends on those who help by not just saying there "fake" or "bad", or other, without backing up their comments, the code of conduct says......Be friendly, polite, positive, and helpful. If you think someone’s artifact is not correct or your opinion differs from his or hers, be sure to explain why.

I think we could all benefit if those making the comments to please explain in detail, what makes these good or bad, and maybe provide some detail to the explanation, and maybe some other evidence to back up their statements, we can only learn when those commenting are willing to explain why something is the way it is, comments made on this forum are viewed by many, not just experts, but beginners as well, they above all need the help we can offer, and they look up to the known members as to what they post. If they post an items bad, many just leave with that, to afraid to ask in detail as to why. Its time for those making these comments to please take the time, in detail to explain as to why they feel the way they do, if they have some documents to back up there claims, please also present those as well, we can all use the help. After all, thats all the person starting the thread was asking for.

When someone attempts to duplicate or forge or counterfeit something, they strive to make it appear as if original. The purpose is to fool and deceive others into believing it is real. They have been faking Third Reich material since the war ended, this is a fact!

It all comes down to money. With regards to supply and demand, there is more demand for Third Reich material than there is supply. Many people make a living selling the stuff, so when there is nothing to sell, except the occasional collection that comes on the market, the dealers are not making much money. In addition, we have more and more dealers as time goes by, selling less and less material. Where does it all keep coming from then? (The behind the Iron Curtain line is obviously losing its steam, since the wall came down long ago.)

We have motive for unscrupulous people to try to reproduce the stuff…money. Many people have a vested interest in convincing many other people that all things are real in this hobby.

Fortunately for the collector, there are many reputable dealers still, and much period and post war reference material to educate your self with. These forums are not unbiased learning centers for collectors either. All have some kind of vested interest in promoting the good, bad, and ugly. Many of the moderators are dealers, agents of dealers, or even people who mean well, but lack basic knowledge to speak intelligently about the subject matter. Many forums are sponsored by dealers (or run by them.)

One useful period reference is RZM source material. Unfortunately this period material is hard to come by and virtually no one has bothered to reprint the hand books and manuals that this organization printed as a guideline for most everything manufactured during the Third Reich. The RZM or Reichszeugmeisterei was set up to supervise and oversee production and pricing for all things related to the NSDAP party, and eventually many other areas.

They are one guide that exposed these eagles. Post war material to include the 1984 book by John Angolia, “Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP & SA” has many close up pictures of the collar tabs and none that I can see have these humps under the wings. Since these eagles first started appearing in the 1990’s that would seem to be the reason none are shown in the Angolia book.

I can not find the eagle RZM regulations, but here is a pictured example of RZM description for a Political Leader’s button. Look at all the specifications and detail they go to in order to explain the required manufacturing of a simple button. (Perhaps another forum member has the collar tab eagle spec sheet available to post?)

In addition, advanced collectors and collections with history do not have these types of eagles. I suppose that we are to assume that they just suddenly started appearing in the 90’s and we are not supposed to question them? Almost all the Political Leaders tunics sold in German auctions now and many for sale here in the states have this type of eagle, which prior to the 90’s was never seen. This for me is reason enough to be leery.

I am not sure what proof one requires to state for sure that something is fake? Every collector should look at all Third Reich material as if it is fake before deciding to buy. Because of the lack of material and desire to possess, most everyone treats the stuff exactly the opposite way they should.

To paraphrase a good friend and mentor:

In today’s collecting market, the collector must consider everything FAKE until proven otherwise. Why? Because we collectors want so very desperately for this stuff to be real (Dealers know that and they play on it.).

Our main defense is knowledge because knowledge is power. Power over the dealers. Over the dealers, because they only want to make a buck, and many items which are not, often become "original". Over yourself because you want to believe it is real so bad, but your reasoning and systematic analysis indicates otherwise. Do research!

Analysis is crucial. Analysis involves study. In order to study properly, you must have the tools to do so. First is the 15x loupe. It is practical for shows, but not as good as a dissecting stereo microscope. Absolute must. Need to have a high intensity light for side illumination too. This item can show you where threads have been re-sewn or material has been re-work and put together. Inconsistency in cloth, threads, attachments are all brought into your vision with this item. Many high end dealers use them to verify material, how many dealers have ever suggested you as the collector buy one?

A portable UV light is critical in dealing with textile items.

Research the National Archives and or the Hoover Institute. The amount of information there is staggering, to include RZM period reference, tailoring periodicals, period pictures, etc etc.

The field you select to pursue must be small enough for YOU to be the expert, and yet not so small that you run out of material to pursue. (My field is all things Political Leaders related.)

Lastly, but probably most important. . . everything is a fake. Or manipulated, or a parts piece, or anything else other than what you hoped it might be. This attitude you MUST have, to preserve your capital, and protect yourself from the dealers. Only when it passes the strict criteria you have established for what is acceptable to you, will you acquire it. Does it have that "feel good" aura about it? How will you explain it to your future buyers? Or will it stand on its own?

Any advanced collector simply does not buy or own tunics or tabs with this type of PL eagle.

Why does the Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter not exist in NSDAP literature? For example, the 1943 Organisationsbuch der NSDAP (see table 22 and table 24 of that edition) lists the rank immediately under that of Gauleiter as that of Ober Befehlsleiter. According to the Organisationsbuch, the Haupt Befehlsleiter grade only exists at the Reichsleitung level.

Jeff, thank you for your detailed explanation on fakes, but, I still am asking, not only for myself and others, but for the person who started this thread, why is the eagle, as you have stated, a fake, postwar, etc, you have made these clear comments, and given your study in the field, I was hoping to get a detailed reason why there fake, we all understand what your saying, but its still off the point, were not asking about fakes in general, nor was the question about dealers, or collections, or dealers who are moderators, were asking why this eagle is a fake, regardless of collectors or collections who dont have them, it will only help if you can explain in detail as to why there fakes. I fully understand what you say, but its a generalized statement thats been made for decades in the hobby.

I can also understand that there are now appearing all over, thats been made before, but your statement still did answer the question, why? Education is so important here, not just comments that all items should be viewed as fakes first, these lessons may be fine for the beginner, but not the for advanced collector, he or she already knows this, and quite well, So, I ask again, what information do you have, or others for that matter, that can show, these eagles to be fakes, or postwar made.

We cannot learn if people make comments that an items fake, and leave it at that, this forum is designed to help and educate, and it can only happen if those who make these comments, are prepared to show as to why they feel this way, I cant believe that no one here cannot explain exactly WHY these are fakes, if you can do this, or others, you might be able to clear up this mystery once and for all.

Please take the time to read throughly the links provided below, I will also quote from them, theres seems to be a lot of back and forth here, maybe bringing this out will help to clear up these comments.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/m/5843023607/r/7573007607#7573007607

"Any time something is found in quantity, there is automatic suspicion. When a large group of these turned up, years ago, many collectors panicked and automatically thought they were fake. These are original and nothing to be concerned about. There are a number of makers of the metal insignia and each has slightly different charachteristics."

Bob Hritz

"When these tabs were discovered in quantity in storage in the East, this was not the only rank found, but many other Political ranks were found in the big box,including dark brown ones, & even the lowly ones for the lower Orts ranks. As for lending some more credence to the event of their discovery, for any ever-present unbelievers, I have seen the original paperwork from the Polish Government to bring the stuff out of there & to enable the buyer to get the stuff thru their Customs hassle-free. Also in the purchase were many original SA stickpins,(RZM-marked) each pinned to a very long strip of WW2 Polish newspaper, alongside each other, to make a roll, & each roll of these had 100's of stickpins." Schloss1

Two quotes from this thread link above, and yes, there are others in the link as well, making other comments about them being bad too. Keep in mind, there comment smay now have changed, as its been sometime, and thats fine as well, but if so, why?

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/m/1003092457/r/9413093067#9413093067

"Bob, I hate to disagree with you, but I have noticed this dimple on MANY originals that I have vet purchased over the years. I feel that this was just one manufacturer's variation and it was rather common.
Also, MANY of the tabs that I have found are in this like new condition. I believe that literally thousands of these tabs were never issued and our troops found them by the hundreds and sent them home.
MOST of the tabs that I find from veterans and unissued and, if stored properly over the years, retain that "like new" look. For some reason, vets kids just didn't play with these like they did dad's daggers. Great for the collector."
Ron Weinand
Weinand Miltiaria

"Here is another, even older, thread on these same tabs. The consensus is that they are original, late-war, unissued SA collar tabs. They have been thoroughly examined by experts in the field. This is of more value than subjective comments about their appearance such as "they look too new, they aren't shiny enough, they have bumps under the wings, there are too many of them out now, etc." These may all be good warning flags, but they are not hard evidence.

Note especially Tony Lawson's post in the thread from July 25, 2001.

NSDAP Collar tabs

I own a pair of these tabs and plan on keeping them. When I first received them, I was concerned since they did not look as good as other tabs of this type. I am now satisfied that they are legit tabs of late-war quality. Considering that I paid FAR less than the several hundred $'s typical price for Abschnittsleiter tabs, I am happy with them.

I don't really need another pair for my collection, but if anyone who owns a set is convinced that they a repros, I would be glad to take them off their hands at high-end repro prices." Chuck Ferguson

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=042090573&f=859099914&m=9443059832&p=1

"This style of reproduction tab has been around for at least 8 years. You normally find them in this identical configuration rank/level. If you study the eagle, note the round bulge on top and bottom of both wings about dead center. This along with the previously mentioned points are the most glaring points. It was originally thought that someone had found a large group of unissued tabs and simply had new insignia added. I do not subscribe to that theory." Jason Burmeister

"Having read the varied opinions on this subject I would like to enter in some information in regards to materials.
It seems there is a general idea that the devices should be "Cruddy" "Oxidized" and "Putty colored"
and this idea may apply to some devices , but not all.

These are the 4th pattern tabs as introduced in 1939. The earlier devices, upwards to 1942 were die forged usually in Britannia(White metal) and given a gilt finish. The properties of this alloy as well as others allows it to retain these finishes quite well. This is documented by Mike 582's post of a well defined original tab that appears to retain 95% of the gilt finish.

The later war devices, like many other metal items produced in the period were of Kriegsmetal a poor quality, zinc based alloy. Zinc is known for absorbing and oxidizing finishes placed onto it, However, it needs humidity or moisture as an "Exciting" agent to begin this chemical process.

Therefore, devices subjected to high enough levels of humidity (RH 50% or higher) will be grey with oxidation. Surfaces that have contacted direct mositure will normally show crusty deposits of Zinc oxide.

Also, In regards to the original post, there was a large group of these Reichs Abschnittsleiter tabs that originated out of Austria in 1991.
The devices and piping were original-The velvet cloth and buckram backing were not. Considered a "Parts" insignia, it came only in this rank and level. The tab illustrated in this first photo however is not one of these and appears to even be of poorer quality. The finish appears to be a gold paint as opposed to a metallic lacquer as used on originals."

Best regards
John Casino

I have brought out some comments, but of course, not all, the reason is some TOP names have made these comments, good and bad, John Casino was one of the few who explained WHY he felt the way he does, in detail. The names give an idea of the level of expertise here, and how they feel. Please read through the links, to get a better idea of the controversy on these tabs.

As you can read, theres still no solid proof, one way or the other in this topic, some very good comments, but the experts seem to agree, either way! good and bad.

Hopefully, by keeping this active, we might get a better understanding as to the origins of these tabs, when they were made, by who, and for what purpose, was it only to decive? are they later war originals that we found, and assembled postwar? Were they only made in the 1990? if so, how do you know?

If we can clear this up here and now, can you think of the impact it will have? This is not a simple example of a fake tunic, its hundreds of collar tabs, and some on uniforms, if you have the information, PLEASE post it here.

Rick H

The Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter rank does exist in post 1942 period references. (The 43 Org book was compiled in 42 and published in 43.)
This thread contains pictures of one period post 1942 publication showing that rank. A very few examples of this rank tab are known to exist and have survived the war. It is doubtful the rank was ever awarded to anyone.


Kent Berg

I answered the question.
I realize you are one of the people here with a vested interest and that your web site has offered these types of eagles on tunics for sale. My argument is unbiased and based on what I know. I have no dog in this fight and I would think that you would be the last person to argue one way or another. I think people with vested interests should avoid the controversy and by doing so not display their obvious biased opinion.

Why is a hundred dollar bill considered counterfeit that does not have the thread and watermark visible when held up to a light? Because real ones have these in them.
Why is this eagle with the humps considered counterfeit? Because real ones do not have them.

Which one of the tabs below is considered real and the other counterfeit? One is made per the RZM specifications, was manufactured per-1945, and is correct. The other is made after 1945, is not made per the RZM specifications, and is not correct.
Can you guess which pair is good?

In this forum there are hundreds of items spoken about each month and numerous items discussed as fakes. I do not see others producing pages from period literature or RZM regulations to back up each fake discussed. The faker and forger are going to make these things as exact as possible so that they are not detectible. That is the idea. I guarantee you the next generation of these post war produced eagles will not have the humps.

2nd set

quote:

I realize you are one of the people here with a vested interest and that your web site has offered these types of eagles on tunics for sale. My argument is unbiased and based on what I know. I have no dog in this fight and I would think that you would be the last person to argue one way or another. I think people with vested interests should avoid the controversy and by doing so not display their obvious biased opinion.

Jeff, Thank you for your comments, and NO, I dont have ANY vested interest in this or others, I have had a request from the person making the post as to why no one will explain the reason there fakes. Please read the posts again, before commenting. Next, I am only aware of one tunic I sold that had these eagles on it, so I dont know where your going with that comment. As for arguing, sorry again, I am, at the request of the thread, asking you and others to explain why? Thats my job here. When help is required of me, I WILL proceed with it, that I have done, but in General, no detailed information has YET be be posted as to why there fake, if they are, great, now we know, if not, well......

Again, sorry if you feel I have a vest interest here, either as a dealer or whatever, you seem a bit defensive, how about bring to light somemore information that might help out here, and yes, the RZM information is great, but what else can you provide? Lets stay on the topic of the tabs, and what the poster was asking about in the first place.

These humps as pictured here and the lack of pebbling to the area around the swastika are what I speak of.

magnification around the wreath really shows the lack of detail in the pebbling

Kent

Always a pleasure....thank you for the exchange

Jeff, thank you for the picture, but, yes we know about the humps, and where they are, Can you provide some more info as to why these are fakes, I am asking for your additional help in the area, as you are a collector of NSDAP collar tabs.

I can also tell you why the humps are there. None have hit on this one yet, so I spent sometime looking into it. Remove the eagle, and look at the backside. The eagle was made, with a solid back, but has three areas indented for the pins, the eagle was made first, then the pins were made second, next, the pins are laid into the eagle recess area, and it appears a heavy press was used to then stamp a piece of alum into the recess, to retain the pin, in doing so, it made the humps appear, as it pressed the soft alum of the eagle body, as the recess is so close to the bottom of the wing, that explains WHY they have the bump, but not when they were made, and why there fakes. Were making progress here, lets not stop, I have provide information as to WHY they have humps, what can anybody else add to there originality, or postwar manufacture.

The style of collar tab being discussed only appeared on the collecting scene within the past 15 years. Prior to that point, to the best of my knowledge, examples of political collar tabs with these "defects" were not known to exist. Further, I know of none of these that have solid veteran provenance. What I do know for a fact is that the original batch of Reichsleitung Abschnittleiter tabs showed up at the Max Show being sold in quantity by a dealer from Europe who is known to bring and sell enmasse reproduction 3rd Reich items.
I do not look at any of these as being pre May, 1945 manufacture. It is likely tht these are either produced and poorly post war assembled from partial or complete original parts or totally reproduction. I believe the answer to ba a combination of both. it appears that we are now in to a second generation of fake political tabs.
I do know that the opinion of some of those perviously cited with regards to the originality of these pieces has changed since their original posts.
Bob

"klaushund

posted 17 March 2003 19:43
although a fairly high level reichsleitung tab, they are around these days. a group of these were found by a european dealer 8-10 years ago. They are original and are usually priced around $250"

Bob, you made this post long ago, so I am assuming you have also had a change of heart here? If so, can you explain to the others as to why? Yes, I mentioned that the others might have also changed there minds, but we have yet to hear from them on this post, so I can only assume so. Did you come across something since your post that lead to believe otherwise? We are getting closer to an answer here, but have only had two comments, anyothers to help out?

Kent-
Quite simply, when I examined the evidence at hand, my conclusions changed due to the evidence that evolved. Further, if you read my entire post, I mentioned at that time the possiblity of post war assembly. When the first Atwood fake daggers appeared in the mid 60's, many collectors were stung due to the fact that many had never handled the less common daggers. it was only after they started to appear in number in the collecting community that doubts as to their authenticity arose. Fakes that were originally accepted to be genuine are later assessed in a different manner after time and tide present a strong case for a change of opinion. There is no shame in being stung or mistakenly accepting a fake for genuine. it has happened to most of us and more than once. there is a problem when evidence leads one to an opposite conclusion and that evidence is ignored.
Bob

Kent your theory about the manufacturing of these eagles does not address that of detail around the swastika and wreath...the missing pebbling, please address this as well.

Your passion and yearning for the truth is an inspiration to us all!

Jeff, I only have the information I explained in detail a moment ago, I have nothing to add, as I do not know anymore. Sorry. As for the truth, I again, please read all the comments in this forum before posting, that I am following through at the request of the person who posted the thread to start with, he was never given a detailed reason, even after asking several times, so now, I am asking for him, and others as well. If you have a comment, please keep it on topic of the collar tabs only. If you have information on the pebbling, please present it in detail for us all, and please remember, this is not for me, its for all of us.

BOB, saw your post about the assembly, its in the link to read, I think your hinting to new evidence here, and thats what were after, new evidence that there bad, if you have more info, please post it, were on the right track here, and more and more is coming out on these, remember, I am not siding either way as Moderator, I want to help out those asking.

Kent-
I believe the greatest evidence to be items procured from veterans prior to the birth of the great era of reproduction or as I like to call them, items from the 4th Reich. I can accept some explanations of small variations when it comes to hand produced items, such as hand embroidered insignia. However, when we are dealing with die stamped material that was mass produced and also subject to conformity to design and quality by the Reichszugmeisteri, acceptance must be at a much higher level of skepticism. As I mentioned, the questionable pattern 4th pattern insignia suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the early 90's. Prior to that, I never heard of insignia with the flaws being discussed. As more and more appears without very old provenance, one must deduce that this material is very suspect.
I doubt if there is any thing else I can add to this thread-at least at this time.
Bob

Greetings fellow collectors


Good to see this thread has woken up again - hopefully someone will find the wise stones this time sort of say.

Let's all keep our minds open, be constructive and most importentent of all behave like gentlemen please! Mudd wrestling looks best with our beloved opposite sex

It is very true that I have contacted Kent Berg as I have many others in the quest to find out wether these tabs are genuine or bad (in hope of finding proof). I as a relatively newer collector doesn't have the same connections, Network and not to forget experience and wisdom as the elder collectors have, hence I found it natural to poke arround a bit.

I've got many different answers from respected collectors and dealers and I will not say the source of the statements as "he said that - and he said this" is simply not me! However I find two statements very interesting:

Person A told me: I've bought tunics with these tabs from vets as far back in the early 1970'ies.

Person B told me: I've bought such tabs back in the 1980'ies at the Max Show from Mr. Johannes Floch's table.

Doesn't that give food for thoughts when these first are supposed to have surfaced in the early 1990'ies? It sure did for me wich is why I haven't given up...yet! (Though I nearly did when Mr. Floch's name surfaced).

Also when looking back at various threads there seems to be a bit confusement about mixing up the tabs found in Austria with the ones found in Poland...or am I the only one who sees that and are a bit confused about the two events?

@Expand: There is something that I first overseen...on the first page of this thread You post a picture (I presume period pre May 1945?) with all collar tabs of the Ortsleitung and the Oberabschnittsleiter is among them. At that point You don't say anything about that Oberabschnittsleiter didn't excists - on the controary You say that it's suitable for town mayor. But next You say they didn't excist...why the sudden change?

@Klaushund: You also had a very sudden change - first saying very convinced that there is absolutely nothing wrong with these collar tabs - and now there is...why the sudden change?

Digging back in some old threads, I fell over one particular that Kent Berg also listed: http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/m/1003092457/r/9413093067#9413093067 as Aylson Doyle has a pair of Kriesleitung Hauptabschnittsleiter tabs. These are exactly the same as mine - even have the same maker stamp "26" on the RZM label...yet they doesn't seem to have the bumps under the wings...could be the photo though. I think the above tabs on that thread (Reichsleitung Abschnittsleiter) are also the same though it seems like the makers stamp is 24?
What I find peculiar is that when this thread was posted 2 years ago these were only suggested to be controvercial - and now they are fake!?!

Am I the only one who sees the "tell-tale" of "telling my neighbour that my other nieghbour got a new Volkswagen and due the words travels the Volkswagen becomes a Rolls Royce" - type of...or are somebody holding back facts that surfaced within the past 2 years?

@Aylson Doyle: If You still have the above mentioned tabs please take some new photos and post on this thread if possible - thank You.

Another thing that has bothered me is the tunic it self. Looking at how the collartabs are sewen onto the tunic (picture posted on first page of this thread). To me it looks like the exact same type of thread used to sew the whole tunic. If the collar tabs are fake - then the tunic should also be fake - right? Is there any VALID reason to belive the tunic is a fake as well as the arm band wich is attached with the same thread?

Another thing I find peculiar is when I try to step into the fakers shoes sort of speak - why the heck manufacture somthing that is totally different - and not seen before when trying to fake something that should convince collectors to think item X is being genuine...that is the whole point for a faker...decieve other people and make money of it! By that the faker has to get as close to the known genuine piece as possible - otherwise would his "investment" be lost in advance. If I were a faker I sure would have chosen same metal, setup (not using flat prongs if the genuine had round ones) and as close to the finish as possible and so on. With these eagles on these tabs nothing are alike any other eagles - but the design! It sure doesn't make sence in my book - does it do that in Yours?

Having the fakers issue in mind and that these tabs should have been sold to dealers for about $20-40 a piece or was it a pair depending wether the seller liked the dealer or not ...well, it doesn't matter that much as it probably wasn't the faker himself whos sold them direct to the dealers but a middleman and probably even more than one. I don't recall seeing thousands of these floating on the marked either - actually I can't find any for sale at the moment Adding up all these things...how much would that leave the faker as income on an expensive low range production with totally "new invented" setup he also should cover? I think this question could be the answer!

Hopefully this post of mine isn't causing a too big stirr up and it's not my intention to step on anybodys toes - but hopefully it helps to throw some light upon these rather controvercial collar tabs.

I'm still a bit confused about them - but feels that I'm getting closer to a "solution" that I sure can live with - that is, if there are no bulletproof facts that surfaces wich I prefer over anything else!


Cheers,
Carsten

Bob, thanks for your post, I do understand, hopefully some others will post as well with any information they have, until that happens, or new info comes to light, we may be at the middle of the road on these,its seems split on good/bad, but if that happens, as it can, all must remember this, if some proclaim these fake, that does not indeed make them fake, nor does it make them original Thrid Reich. When dealing with these items, unless you (not you in particular) were there when they were made, either 1945, or 2005, its impossible to say for 100% an item, any item is fake, unless there so bad, its funny. But it can be a bad situation when a collector comes out, and proclaims an item fake, without positive proof, this hurts not only the item in question, but the hobby as a whole. If anymore information can be found, please post it here.

Hello All,

I believe Jeff,(Exspand),is 100% right in every respect of his post!
I have also observed every picture I could get over the internet and reference books I have regardind to the 1939 4th and final pattern NSDAP collar tabs and NONE are with that hump!
Also the paper tags on those tabs are brand new,that I think it´s impossible after more than 60 YEARS ! Besides,some of those tabs have a RED tag instead of the blue tag which is according to regulations.

*Carsten,(Herr Flick): Of course I can ! I made new scans of those pairs with a lot more detail and also I made scans of the insignia in some of my NSDAP-PL uniforms.
Both pairs I will post picture bellow I got from BILL SHEA of the RUPTURED DUCK in 1997 and the LAST uniform with FAKE insignias also came from him in the same year.Please note that in the year of 1997 Bill Shea didn´t have a website and I got these from his mailed list,do you remember those days?
OK, first pair

Reverse,

Detail 01

Detail 02

Detail 03

Second Pair

Reverse

Detail 04

TUNIC 01

TUNIC 01a

TUNIC 01b

TUNIC 01c

I just posted the note below in the SS cloth Forum where a similar discussion is going on.
**************
Whoa. Slow down a bit here folks.

I feel there is a lot left to discover in all the militaria we collect. I personaly do not buy the argument that something unseen (or perhaps just un-noticed) until recently is bad simply for that reason.

Case in point: Until 3 year ago everyone said that ONLY Jacobs made the only SS dagger with an exclamation point after the motto an that M7/29 was Jacobs' RZM code. People who questioned this were dismissed out of hand. I acquired an early SS dagger by Klitterman & Moog with an exclamation point and a second one has since surfaced. Most peple now also accept that M7/29 is K&M not Jacobs.

No one on GDC, myself included, is such an unchallengeable expert that they can dismiss an artefact without a specific reason. What I suggests that if anyone thinks these are bad eagles, then please state a reason other than they have not seen it before.
************

They could be good or bad, but this should be decided on provable points.

Dave

TUNIC 02

TUNIC 02a

TUNIC 02b

TUNIC 02c

quote:

Originally posted by AYLSON DOYLE:
Hello All,

I believe Jeff,(Exspand),is 100% right in every respect of his post!
I have also observed every picture I could get over the internet and reference books I have regardind to the 1939 4th and final pattern NSDAP collar tabs and NONE are with that hump!
Also the paper tags on those tabs are brand new,that I think it´s impossible after more than 60 YEARS ! Besides,some of those tabs have a RED tag instead of the blue tag which is according to regulations.

*Carsten,(Herr Flick): Of course I can ! I made new scans of those pairs with a lot more detail and also I made scans of the insignia in some of my NSDAP-PL uniforms.
Both pairs I will post picture bellow I got from BILL SHEA of the RUPTURED DUCK in 1997 and the LAST uniform with FAKE insignias also came from him in the same year.Please note that in the year of 1997 Bill Shea didn´t have a website and I got these from his mailed list,do you remember those days?
OK, first pair

Have you tried to return these to Bill?

One big problem with the Reich's level tabs is that I have not been able to find a red tag on any other NSDAP item. I have seen genuine tabs of the same style and they had blue tags.

TUNIC 03

TUNIC 03a

TUNIC 03b

TUNIC 03c

LAST TUNIC,take a good look on the insignias,
TUNIC 04

TUNIC 04a

TUNIC 04b

TUNIC 04c

quote:

Originally posted by CurtD:
Have you tried to return these to Bill?

One big problem with the Reich's level tabs is that I have not been able to find a red tag on any other NSDAP item. I have seen genuine tabs of the same style and they had blue tags.

Hello CurtD
Return those items after 8 years?
At that time there was no internet I just could not "cross reference" and I trusted him 100%,and it was not but at the mid 90s this last generation of fakes started surfacing.I just could notice they were fakes about two years ago,and almost by pure accident! I posted those tabs before in the hope that I was wrong and members said they were OK and you can see by my comments in some posts that I did not agree with them.
Take a good look to the resulting condition of those tabs in real uniforms I have,from number 1 to 3 and now look to the other tabs specially the one on the last uniform.That tab is on an uniform that was "used" but in "good" condition but the tabs DOESN`T show use or age at all!!
And the "bumps" are THERE !
How can that be??
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

Herr Flick & others: to get the story straight, there is no "mix-up" whether the tabs were found in Poland or found in Austria- the tabs were FOUND in Poland as I had mentioned some time ago, -- they were then taken out of Poland, into Austria, & were NOT FOUND in Austria.

quote:

Rick H

The Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter rank does exist in post 1942 period references. (The 43 Org book was compiled in 42 and published in 43.)
This thread contains pictures of one period post 1942 publication showing that rank. A very few examples of this rank tab are known to exist and have survived the war. It is doubtful the rank was ever awarded to anyone.

Exspand,

Thank you for the clarification. My own period references are woefully short of post 1942 material. I noticed that while Col. Angolia's book (Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP and SA) shows a photo of the Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter tab on p.54, it notes on the same page that the grade was only relevant to the Reich level.

Many seem to keep calling the printed color of these controversial tabs as "red". No, the color is not red. Red is the color you see printed on the HJ RZM tags. Clarification of the color: not red; it's a pinkish-carmine, (& it's not supposed to be the blue-printed either), it's the pinkish-carmine hue as on the tags when the tabs were found. Why was this color used?? I have no idea; maybe it has something to do with the rank?!? Only the maker knows why.

Many readers are of the assumption that the tabs in question made their debut in the early 1990's because of a couple of postings made belching the words of wisdom "suddenly appearing out of nowhere in the early 90's". Perhaps that is the first time they encountered the horde of tabs, at the Max. They were available way, way before that, so the 'early-90's" theme can be tossed into the GI can. I searched thru my old files to find them listed available in quantity & pictured on a Euro dealer's list dated February 1975.

Let me start with saying that this isn't a witch hunt - I'm just trying to figure out this insignia as we all are, and everybody have the right to have their own oppinion. Anyway I think we are now going somewhere...though we are far from the goal.

@Aylson Doyle: Thank You very much for posting Your tabs and tunics - much appreciated...and to that I can add that a certin body part of mine below the back is turning green from envyisme - absolutely stunning! I love the setup on tunic 1...magnificent!

Comparing the tabs I am comfortable with saying that the eagle of the Reichsleitung Abschnittsleiter and the Kreisleitung Hauptabschnittsleiter tabs are the same eagles as on my tunic.

Looking closer I can only agree with Kent Berg on the way these were manufactored. If You look closer at the Reichsleitung Abschnittsleiter tabs the eagle doesn't have matching "bumps" - but a bump over the right wing. Having this in mind I belive we will see those particular eagles with variations of bumps...some with three like on my tunic - some with two and probably also some without any bumps at all and so on.

We now also can see that it's not only one manufactoror that used this type of eagle on their tabs, and so far we have manufactoror 24, 26 and 28. Unfortunately I don't have any reference that cover these, but I will find it interesting if someone could find out who these manufactorors were as to their geographical location.

@Schloss 1: Thank You for clarifying where they were found. I admit that I had the understanding of two batches in different quality were found within same decade, wich was kinda bugging me.
If possible please make a scan or take a snapshot of the February 1975 dealers list and post, as to me that is hard evidence of those tabs being manufactored atleast pre 1991 or actually 1975 - wich is a step down the road.

After reading Rick H.'s posts and having the illustration of the Ortsleitung insignia Expand posted on page 1 of this thread, I find it legit to assume that Oberabschnittsleiter indeed excisted within Ortsleitung - as the highest rank.

Of note I must say that I totally agree with Expand/Jeff regarding the complexity within the Reichzeugmeisterei. However assuming that these are late war produced I think it's legit to belive that they wasn't that hysterical at the Reichszeugmeisterei of accepting only the perfect insignia - but it were a matter of being able to produce any insignia at all as to the allied bombing raids.

As a futher note I must say that my knowledge is limited as I am not an elder collector - only have 2 years on my back, hence I normaly stay off the scene listening and learning. My main collecting area is awards (though my collecting interests are spread very wide) and I see differences all the time on these - especially when it comes to different manufactorors...for instance the manufactoror of PAB's can be identified within the difference of the grass/stone area. Having the many manufactorors in mind I also think it's very legit to assume that there are differences on the final product depending who made it - also when it comes to insignia.


Cheers,
Carsten

This is what we are after, now some more information is filtering through. Hopefully, we will be able to get a better picture after some more posts. New light has been shed on a MUCH earlier date of finding, in the 70's, as was mentioned by another, that some dealers bought them from vets or at motel buys, and had encountered them.

What I want to make clear to those now getting into this, and thoses just reading these posts, is that a few comments DO NOT make an item a reproduction! Although we still do not know 100% good or bad, more info is coming out to show that they have been around much longer, if this is indeed true, then we all might want to take a second look at them, and not just come out and say there bad, and the statement made that NO bigger collector or advanced collector would have these in there collection is, maybe they dont, thats there choice, but if the evidence supports originality, now what?

Yes, a few will still make their claims their bad, most likely regardless of what is posted or proven here. Heres the bottom line, if you dont like them, dont own them, simple! but, if they are real to the period, and we can get some more info on that, maybe others who are in doubt, or, believe there real, will have this knowledge to back them up. If it goes the other way, great, we might save others from buying them later on.

Heres what I see. First, I have spent a lot of time studying these eagles and oaks leafs etc. I didnt want to be the one who just looked at them on a tab and passed. I found that many did'nt look at them closely, they just saw the hump, and moved on, the eagles are made of aluminum and NOT metal, the other tabs that are accepted are stamped metal, with metal prongs, soldered on back, even the reserve of the metal is not quality on many I have seen, the fronts are great, but the backs look not a clean as these. Now, these eagles are not metal, but aluminum, and seem pressed, as the quality is very good, as expected, and the backs, Has ANYBODY looked at the backs, are solid, and from what I remember, the RZM stamped is raised. The eagle has three indentions for the prongs, as mentioned before, the pins are also aluminum, then the pins are put into the indents, and more aluminum is added by way of a press to hold the pins on. Also, the pins are not crude soft aluminum, but very strong. Look at the oak leafs, same way made, but the indents are farther from the edges, so you dont get the bumps. Still, top quality made, top quality dies, etc. AND different marks on back, Next, I have seen just about every rank, in every piping with these eagles, the lowest I have encountered is the eagle and a single pip, blue piped, all the way up to the eagle and the three oak leaf spread with two bars, the bars are made the same way. Blue, white, yellow and yes red piped tabs have surfaced. You will not get the ageing with these as you will with the metal ones, as the are either gilted aluminum, or maybe anodized aluminum.

Now, we have a rough idea of how they were made, and the way they might have been made, we also have a rough idea as to when they started to appear on the market, now a bit earlier that stated, although a posting of the flyer or paper will be very nice to see. We have seen postings from top collectors and dealers who made vet buys of these eagles on tabs.

Granted, all this is not 100% proof there original, but at least it leaves open the question. When a comment is made there bad, and correct me if I am wrong, the only downside is that they have the bumps under the wings, and are missing the pebbling that Jeff mentioned, did I miss anything else? If you add both sides up, you'll see the difference, and folks, thats how these items are judged these days, why? because, most likely neither you nor I were there and saw them being made, either in the 1940's, or later (or maybe you were). So, we can ONLY go on what the collector has to offer by way of evidence and the facts as they are presently known. If this were a court of law, the attornies would tear up both sides, no doubt, but what there after is whatever evidence can be presented, the more, the better, simple!

This post will contuine, and more information will come out, if you are happy in the knowledge there fakes, fine, thats your opinion, and thats all it is, an opinion, based on what you know, not what others may or may not know. If you have a belief there original, also fine, but, facts remain we most likely wont know 100% for sure ever, but we can get close! Keep posting if you have any information on these tabs, and please, stay on topic, if you want to post tunics, or others, start a new thread. Leave this one for the tabs only.

quote:

Originally posted by Schloss 1:
Many seem to keep calling the printed color of these controversial tabs as "red". No, the color is not red. Red is the color you see printed on the HJ RZM tags. Clarification of the color: not red; it's a pinkish-carmine, (& it's not supposed to be the blue-printed either), it's the pinkish-carmine hue as on the tags when the tabs were found. Why was this color used?? I have no idea; maybe it has something to do with the rank?!? Only the maker knows why.

It is not supposed to be blue? Then are these "bumpless" tabs on Bill Shea's site fake?

Fake blue tag????? Has anyone seen a red, carmine, pink, or any other non-bluish tag on any NSDAP item?

quote:

Originally posted by AYLSON DOYLE:

Hello CurtD
Return those items after 8 years?

Sure. Lifetime guarantee is > 8 years.

Hundreds of those little gold pips (stars)(with the small eagle/swastika) were found with the NSDAP tabs, unissued in wrappers, I still have a small bagful left; they are marked RZM M1/42.

Hi the tag posted above and now belonging to Bill Shea was sold to him by me. I trust the knowledge of Jeff aka exspand. There is one question that I would like someone to answer. Are the multitude of tabs that these eagles and clusters appear on accepted as genuine? Is the piping correct and is the construction proper? I have heard the opinions on the insignia but would like an opinion or two about the tabs. I have seen SS tabs disected to death and not just the metal attachments. Thanks and cheers, Ryan

quote:

Reply

Hi without offending anyone I know that I too have a "vested interest" here. There is another previosly expressed comment with some validity. If these tabs are fake where are the multitudes and where are they now being sold and to whom? I know that this does not mean that they are either good or bad but it is food for thought gentlemen. I was at the past two SOS and the past 11 Max shows. I scoured many tables and did not see "hordes" of these tabs offered by anyone.It was tough finding a matching pair of political tabs in any rank or level.One would think that to justify making them one would have to produce more than 100 pair or so. I have been checking Ebay religiously for the past 5 years on an almost daily basis. I recall 2 pair being offered for sale in that time and one of those sellers was a member here and not from the former Eastern block.I see 100's of fake SS and Luft, Heer tabs at every show.Bill Shea has sold them and may continue to do so. I would like to hear his opinion.cheers, Ryan

Ryan, one reason you do not see those tabs bounding all over the place for sale is because the original batch from the influx has been sold out long ago, & they are scattered to the 4 winds, residing in collections; once in a while a set will pop up for sale.

Hello CurtD,
In answer to your question: the tab you posted on Bill's Site is original, not fake, & the blue-print RZM tag is original & yes it is supposed to be blue on that particular tab; in accordance to the regulations in effect at the point in time of their production, & according to the locale where produced (I assume in Germany itself). And the tabs some folks are in wonderment about with the "bumpies" & the pinkish-crimson RZM tag are original too; they came out of Poland & since produced in the Generalgouvernement Locale, perhaps an explanation of this pinkish hue (hellrot/karmesinrot) print for these high-ranking tabs, might be that different Ost regulations for the RZM print-color for tags were in effect in that Eastern Locale at that time. ? I am offering only a possible explanation. There has to be a reason for the use of this particular color. Does anyone out there have RZM production regulations for things produced in the elusory & curious Generalgouvernment??

I just read my last thread and please let me re-phrase in case Bill Shea should read. I meant that Bill Shea sells and has sold the political tabs in question as evidenced by supplied photos. I did not mean that he sells 100's of fake SS, army and Luft tabs. cheers, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Hi the tag posted above and now belonging to Bill Shea was sold to him by me. I trust the knowledge of Jeff aka exspand. There is one question that I would like someone to answer. Are the multitude of tabs that these eagles and clusters appear on accepted as genuine? Is the piping correct and is the construction proper? I have heard the opinions on the insignia but would like an opinion or two about the tabs. I have seen SS tabs disected to death and not just the metal attachments. Thanks and cheers, Ryan

I wish you had offered it on the forum (if you did I missed it)! I would have bought it without the dealer added cost. If you ever get it back from Bill, let me know.

It is hard to find affordable politcal tabs that exspand doesn't already own!

quote:

Originally posted by Schloss 1:
Hello CurtD,
In answer to your question: the tab you posted on Bill's Site is original, not fake, & the blue-print RZM tag is original & yes it is supposed to be blue on that particular tab; in accordance to the regulations in effect at the point in time of their production, & according to the locale where produced (I assume in Germany itself). And the tabs some folks are in wonderment about with the "bumpies" & the pinkish-crimson RZM tag are original too; they came out of Poland & since produced in the Generalgouvernement Locale, perhaps an explanation of this pinkish hue (hellrot/karmesinrot) print for these high-ranking tabs, might be that different Ost regulations for the RZM print-color for tags were in effect in that Eastern Locale at that time. ? I am offering only a possible explanation. There has to be a reason for the use of this particular color. Does anyone out there have RZM production regulations for things produced in the elusory & curious Generalgouvernment??

I have asked several dealers and in several forums -- no one can find any NSDAP item other than these bumpy tabs that have a non-blue tag. Unless someone can come up with some period documentation to explain it, that is enough to put me off right there.

Hello All again,

*Schloss 1 - I did not understand what do you mean when you say they were "found" in Poland.
Are you saying that,perhaps,they were MADE in poland?
What´s the full story about this find?
By reading again Angolia´s "Cloth Insignia Of The NSDAP And SA" I found nothing that would support the allegation that 4th pattern NSDAP collar patches may have been made outside the Reich.However I may be wrong because I do not have many references regarding to RZM factory productions outside the Reich.
Also it doesn´t make any sense the sometimes changing of the color paper tag,nothing shows about what you said in reference books,if I am wrong please kindly tell me where I can find this information.If this is just your theory I must disagree.

* Kent Berg - Interesting theory but I have seen several hundreds 4th and final pattern NSDAP collar tabs and I found the blue tab in ALL LEVELS of ALL RANKS.Since the NSDAP Reichsleitungs Abschnittsleiter collar tab I bought from Bill Shea appears with an INCORRECTED RED TAG and an eagle that cause strong arguments in EVERY forum I have seem, it´s a logical conclusion that,at least,there´s something wrong!It is therefore logical to assume it´s a fake.As a long time collector of Third Reich items I do not believe that such a "flow" could remain undetected by RZM quality controll.I also cannot belive that an incorrected RED tag could be placed by MISTAKE for the same reasons.The FACT that hundreds collar tabs from this rank and of all levels suddenly appears is very suspicious.Besides they are BRAND NEW insignias and that´s impossible after 65 years and ,again,after seeing several hundreds!
"Bei allem gebotenen respekt" my opinion stands and this is a FAKE !
Regards to all,
Aylson Doyle

Hello again Herr Flick,
I am always glad to help!
I thank you very much for your comments on my uniforms,that NSDAP KREISLEITUNG DIENSTLEITER tunic is really impressive.It´s the highest rank found in the Kreisleitung level and it is named to a Gold Party Badge recipient.All decorations you see except the eagle order belonged to the individual.However by researching his history I found out that the decoration missing there was,in fact,that Eagle Order.I am sure that someone will find out who that Gentlemen was.
Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

quote:

The FACT that hundreds collar tabs from this rank and of all levels suddenly appears is very suspicious.Besides they are BRAND NEW insignias and that´s impossible after 65 years and ,again,after seeing several hundreds!

Heres what we know on this statement, first, several have made statements that the tabs have been around LONG before the 90's, including a prominent dealer. That alone can put the 90's theory up in the air, next, I dont remember ever seeing an RZM tag on any I have seen over the years, maybe I dont remember, but, loose ones, I dont recall ever seeing a tag on the backs. Next, you mentioned that after 65 years its impossible to look new, that alone we know can and does happen from time to time, impossible is a strong statement. Alum, stored as these seem to have been, based on other postings, will look new, for a long time, if not exposed to the elements, I have mint unissued SA and NSDAP cap eagles, that look brand new, how can you explain that? we all know these items can look new, when stored properly, so......

Your theory on the red and blues tags is interesting, and may shed light on this a bit more. As for the books, sometimes they dont go into the depth that many would like, mainly because of the pages they plan to use in the book, if depth on every detail was made, it could be volumes and volumes. So, sometimes, they leave out info.

Your opinion has been noted, and I can see why you claim them fake, but, theres still little we know about these tabs, and its too soon to make a yes or no yet, I still expect more posts here, with hopefully new information, if its all bad, and its conclusive, based on whats presented, then we will know, if not, we may wind up back where we started in the first place, with half the camp saying there bad, and half the camp saying there good. Hopefully, later on, I can put together all thats been posted, good and bad, and see what we come up with, but so far, we have yet to see solid evidence either way. But, I feel we are getting closer to the truth.

Last, heres a strange fact, based on whats known so far, the majority were found on the market in the 90's, the MAJORITY, but, we know that some were seen well before that, as vet buys, etc. Now, nothing, nothing since the 90's, yes, they appear here and there for sale, but not in the mass they were, why? If in fact, there reproductions, and if so, damm good ones, why not keep making them? why make a bunch, and stop. Back then, the majority said they were 100% real and original, when they were found in mass, now, that there mostly gone, poping up now and then as a pair or so, there fakes. Why has nobody ever heard of who made them? sometimes, as time goes on, it spills out, and the maker becomes know, sometimes not. Last, why not make them better? why make only a large group, then stop. I only ask these questions, as we need to explore all possibilities. The story about Poland makes some sense, based on how they came onto the market, in quanity, then that was all, just a large group of them in a bunch. And why make excellent tabs, that most say at the time are correct, and waste them with the wrong color RZM tag, thats a big boo boo.

Aylson, your RZM tag info is of definite interest here, if you can get more info, please do.

I have found over 100 original collar tabs from veterans in motel buys. Some with blue RZM Tags and some with red. Some with humps and some not. Some with prongs of the eagles and pips and leaves directly through the tag and some with the tags over the top.
All in all, I am NOT convinced that any were bad in my case. The source and price were too good and verifiable.
Now, in my opinion, the variation comes by manufacturer and the only way to tell who did what is by removal of the insignia and the RZM numbers on the backs of the eagles, and this would only be a indicator, as they might have swapped parts among themselves just as dagger manufacturers did.
So, in the long run, I feel you must be satisfied with the item and its construction. Believe what YOU think is correct and be happy.
We are trying to make scientific decisions on what was just pure business to the people who lived on the product.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I'm bringing this back up, as its generated a lot of interest, both on the forum and off. I would like to hear from anybody else who might be able to add anything else. I have information from several who have emailed me with some documents showing that these same tabs were offered by a dealer in a catalog back in 1975, and are shown on a page from his catalog, the photos I got are rough, so I am waiting for better ones. If indeed this turns out true, and so far it has, plus Rons information, plus someothers who have bought them back in the 70's and 80's (they will not post here as they dont enjoy the forums anymore), have now shown that the theory that they only came out in the 90's can be laid to rest. PLUS, the tag comment was covered a bit by Ron as well, as have a few others with emails sent to me. Trust who you like on this, and if those in doubt still feel that there fake, thats fine, but with the information we now have, its hard to say there fake.

So, anymore information would always help, but it seems that we are leaning more towards them being originals, then the few comments made that they are fakes and postwar. It shows that there is more information then thought, and this information adds to them being originals to WWII.

Greetings


Since a month has passed since last post on this thread, I thought it would be interesting to hear if any new information have popped up on this type of PL insignia?

I might sound a bit impatient, but I really would like to see the mentioned photo of the 1975 dated dealers catalogue where this type of insignia is suppose to be in...and I strongly belive that I'm not alone about this


Cheers,
Carsten

Hello Carsten,
As summertime & hot weather are here in my neck'o'the woods, which is a lake resort area, superb nite clubs, fabulous Beach Dance Bar, etc., I find I am very, very hard-pressed to have much concern at all with any Forums, & at this time, with so many interesting/varied things to do, I have very, very little interest in participating in any Forums; however, with a rainstorm approaching, tonite I've taken note of your melancholy about not seeing the pictures of the 1975 dealer's picture catalog where this exact insignia (& many others) are in. You may strongly believe that tomorrow I am going to make clear fotocopies of the page(s), snail-mail them to Kent Berg, & he will be free to post them. I'd post them myself but have very little inclination to do so, & besides that, my camera is not the greatest. About the only thing as concerns collecting of militaria, that will pull me away from hot summer activities, is if I see a house/farm estate auction advertised in the local Area Shopper that says they'll have WW2 German/Japanese memorabilia for sale, I'll go of course, & make my buys(s), then it's back to Mr. Fun. Be patient & in a short time, hopefully, you'll be able to see the requested pictures. Hang in there...

UPDATE: Bill Shea now has some of these tabs for sale:

http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Cloth/c859.htm

I mailed the fotocopies of my entire 1975 catalog to Kent Berg on 8.8.05. The various NSDAP tabs are items 1 thru 5, & the tabs in question are item #3. Possibly when he has time he'll post pictures.

I finally found another example of a red NSDAP tag:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099...873053844#9873053844

It is on (what most consider to be) a fake armband. Also has an "B" tax code and and "R" sequence #.

CurtD,- just my personal opinion but I think someone has pirated a "red" tag off a set of the tabs-in-question, & has re-glued it to that definitely phony armband in hopes of improving its sale. Note, besides the "B" tax code ltr. & the "R" sequence ltr., the serial nr. is 401204 on the tag on the fake armband,- & that the serial nr. on the tabs posted by Alyson Doyle on 25.5.05 is 400836. I have one of those "red" tags that fell off a set of the "questionable" tabs, & it also has the "B" & the "R", with a serial nr. 400804. Note the numerical closeness of the numbers on all 3 tags. That's why I think someone has peeled off that tag from one of these NSDAP tabs & glued it onto that fake armband to enhance its marketability.

Schloss, the only problem with your theory is that the red tags on all the collar tabs I have seen have holes punched through by the pips.

Wow, what a dicussion. BTT to save...