Recently there has been discussions relating to the zimmerman dotted DKiG "variant". This is a piece in which there are dots in the date of the 1941. This piece is different with regard to the characteristics not only of the date, but wreath, sunburst, and style of the "20" stamp. Particular problems with the piece include the following:


1. The wreath is different. There are multiple areas on the wreath which differ from wartime original pieces, beyond the dots in the date. The mulitiple areas of difference suggest a different die was used to make this piece than wartime zimmerman dies.

2. The sunburst is different. There are no pieces with the "zimmerman flaw" at 10 oclock. There are other ares in which the sunburst is different in structural appearance.

3. The "20 stamp is different. The base of the "2" is longer and there is a greater gap between the "0" and the "2".


4. There are no pieces with provenance. Despite zimmerman being the most prolific maker of DKiGs, there are no pieces with documented provenance, which are routinely found on other wartime makers.

5. There are no Klein "dotted" pieces. Klein and zimmerman wreaths are identical, suggesting some wartime cooperation between the firms. If there was truely a wartime dotted zimmmerman, we would expect to see dotted Kleins as well, yet there are none.



These characterisitics suggest to me the strong possibility of a post war fake. It is possible that all of the above are simply by chance and that this piece was made "late war" (which appears to be a recent euphemism for fake), yet there appears to be no evidence to verify this. It seems as though, given the efforts at many to "rehabilitate" fakes recently by repeated claims on authenticity and endorsement by authors, that the responsibility should be on the "new variant" to show that the piece is actually wartime, rather than the converse.

Here is the difference in the upper wreath compared to a wartime piece

The lower wreath

Tom, I believe this was handled on WehrmachtAwards.com. I have found, directly from an Iowa veteran, a cased DKiG with the dotted date and, from another motel buy veteran, an uncased dotted version.
Also, several other collectors have found these directly from veterans and had posted this on the other site.
I have no doubt these are period originals and were a variation by hallmarked 20. While I have found several golds, only two 20s were with the dotted date variety and, as I have found only one silver, I can comment on a dotted date silver one.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron-

I have no doubt that you have found some of these pieces from veterans. I do not doubt your word on that at all regarding your acquisitions. I will point out that I had acquired a "veteran acquired" rounder RK as well a floch EK1, so some of these pieces sold by vets are not necessarily original. There was a consensus of thought on the WAF site, as detractors were edited or suspended to prevent dissenting opionions.

This piece has a different wreath, sunburst, and maker mark stamp than the wartime originals. I fully agree that this COULD be a wartime piece, but I think we need further evidence, in the form of some solid provenance or manufacturer catalog, to embrace this piece as wartime. When a piece deviates from accepted originals in two structural componants as well as the maker mark, I think that one needs to have pretty solid information to accept it fully as a wartime piece. The above issues, regarding no provenance, two different structural componants, as well as no Klein pieces is particularly disturbing. We should be careful when accepting new variants in the absence of solid evidence, otherwise we end up with Otto Schickle LCTBs and rounder RKs that appear and become accepted prima facia as wartime originals in the absence of solid evidence.

Tom, I doubt that, as it was late war, you will find it in any catalogs. Also, as I remember, my veteran lot contained cased eagle orders, cased oak leafs, and other assorted medals from Schloss Klossheim and the 3rd Division at war's end. He was in their signals battalion, so I have no doubt as to its originality.
Believe as you wish, but others are just as committed as I am as to its wartime existance.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: I prefer the DKiG six rivet marked 21.

I fully respect your views, Ron.

The problem I have with the piece is the poor finishing and marked differences with a zimmerman wreath. If we are to accept the piece as wartime, then we must accept that zimmerman completely changed thier wreaths and sunbursts, as well as maker mark stamp. Further, other zimmermans which are closer matches to the wartime zimmerman, have been dismissed as fakes. Below is a comparison of fake Detlev has identified compared to a wartime piece- pretty close fit and actually a better match than the dotted piece.

Here is the fake lower wreath compared to a real zimmerman.

Here is an example of difference in the stamp

Here is an example of the differences in finishing. Note the poor finishing of the wreath on the dotted example compared to a wartime piece.

Latly, here is the date. The photo shows not only the differences in the date, but the adjacent wreath.

Tom, we know there are differences, but this does not define the time period or the production time.
Also, I have seen many differences in the 20 stamps among the EKIs that I have found from veterans. This, again, posses a question as to when the TM was used or if the numbers were punched individually.
Ron

Ron, I agree that the differences are clear. However, what makes the dotted DKiG real, when it has clear difference in the wreath, sunburst, and maker mark, while the fake zimmerman is fake? The fake posted above is acutally a much closer match to the wartime piece than the dotted DKiG, yet its difference defines it as a fake. How are we to determine what is fake and what is real, in the absence of solid provenance, except to compare pieces to known original standards?

The odd part is this also- where are the klein dotted pieces? Klein and zimmerman wartime wreaths are identical. One would expect that given the use of the same wreaths, we should see some klein dotted pieces, yet we have seen none.

I am not discounting the possibility that these could be real. Yet I would think that given the plethora of fakes, that variants deviating structurally from wartime originals should bear the burden of proof in the form of solid provenance to verify wartime production.

Tom, I take strong issue with your absurd statement "some of these pcs. sold by veterans are not original". I am wondering on what planet this unearthly phenomenon takes place. In buying from veterans via my ads for 45 years, I've NEVER experienced any veteran trying to sell me any fakery. I do admit that at gun shows tho, fake-peddling charlatans posing as "veterans" have tried with no success to sell me repros; but since it was spotted right away that said fakes were repros, it didn't happen. The only way such a happenstance could take place is if the buyer with very little real experience, didn't know what the heck he was doing, didn't know what he was looking at. I think it all boils down to experience. And lots of it, with many years of looking at these things. Experience & true knowledge will ferret the thief out of the woodshed & disclose the impostor. You pointed out such an example, as you said you were bamboozled by someone posing as a veteran, into buying a supposedly fake Knight's Cross & a fake Floch EK1, what the heck,- why on earth did you get taken in the first place on such elementary pcs.?

Schloss-

It is not absurd. Fakes are sold by vets quite often, either intentionally or unintentionally. Post war, most makers of awards continued to make pieces as a part of the souvenier market to GIs. Trading went on for souveniers post war and later. "Vet acquired" pieces can and have been some of these fakes as well as fakes that have been traded or switched to vets at a later time.

Do you honestly believe that every piece sold by a vet is legit? What fake have you run across that does not have the story that it was acquired by a vet?

Tom, I went through this drill on WA.com. Having worked with veterans in my position as Director of Pharmacy at an 850 bed veteran facility for over 25 years, I got to know all the stories and how to talk with veterans, so my ability to tell if their story was the truth or not became second nature to me. Having done over 350 motel buys and had the experience with dealing with veterans, I think I can make a good judgement on their items origin, so I am fairly confident in buying their story and their item.
You can believe as you wish, but the dotted DKiG is good as gold to me.
Ron Weinand, D.P.
Weinand Militaria

I share Ron's view. I have had many dotted-type Gemran Crosses in Gold, that were otherwise identical in construction quality, to the plain-dated counterpart. Their existance pre-dates the "WAF Discovery" by decades. Further, I know for certain that Jason Burmeister has acquired dotted-type German Cross in Golds from the various Schloss Klessheim hoards he has purchased. As he so aptly reasoned over on WAF, if they were fake, or were the product of some conspiracy, then some clever individual would have to had traveled the country, and sprinkled these pieces in among the many hoards Jason has had a part in surfacing.

Discussion is good! Could we see a close up of the dotted date?

--dj--Joe

Tom, Craig Gottlieb's excellent posting only serves to expand on what I've mentioned above relating to the importance of lengthy experience with these badges, especially with experiences in securing them from the heroes who brought them back,- your contentious viewpoints on this 'dotted-date' badge remain without credence based on your dilettante's experience.

Thank you for a cordial discussion, gentleman. I respect your opinions regarding this and point out that the dotted DKiG, in my opinion, MAY be wartime. However, I am uncomfortable with the following points, which have not been addressed-

1. Differences in the die characteristics of the wreath. Again, there is piece posted above that more closely represents the accepted wartime zimmerman DKiG, yet that is a fake. Why is the dotted piece then real?


2. Difference in stamp. They did change from heavy to light zimmerman. However, this would be a third change.


3. No dotted DKiGs with provenance. Given that zimmerman was the most prolofic producer of DKiGs, I would expect that we would have one such piece showing provenance. There are examples of provenance of the other makers. Why is there no pieces with provenance for the "dotted" piece?

4. No Kleins with dots. The two wreaths are identical, yet we have no Kleins with dots. We would have to assume that zimmerman stopped their relationship with Klein, or vice versa, to accept the absbence of Klein dotted pieces.

5. The piece would have to be late war, if we presume it to be original, as it is lighter and presumably made of cupal. This would preclude an early contention,as it would be like the heavy zimmerman and made of tombak.



Ron- I too have had a clinic at the VA and have seen a few fakes come my way. I was offered a Floch EK1 by a vet as a "bring back". The rounder that I purchased reportedly came directly from a vet estate sale. I love working with the vets, but as noted above, many of these guys were buying pieces post war as souveniers and trading in and out. Who knows where they really came from.

This is my opionion- you have yours. I would certainly change my opionion if we had a piece with solid provenace, like that seen on the Tim Calvert 3/4 ring cross. In the absence of that, the discprencies noted above would lead me to believe that this is not of wartime production.

Tom, in re-reading the "olde first go-round" of these on the WA Forum, I've noted that well-respected & well-experienced advanced collector Bob Hritz chimed in back then on 9.Dec.05 that he too, had at times, found these 'dotted-date' German Crosses from veterans over the years, so we can add Bob's name to those who've veteran-acquired these badges.

Tom, now I have to reply to your posting of 20.Jan06 23:03. That worn-out myth "fakes are sold by vets quite often" is one of those wacky scary fairytales that most likely emanated from the old gun shows & the unpolished dealers at same. I, me personally, still find your statement totally absurd, & the reasoning behind this is in that in half-a-century of buying from veterans, I've never been offered a fake from one of these guys. Yes, I've seen ads on ebay with pictures of blatant fakes with stories of "coming from a vet", but in those cases, the fake speaks for itself as being a fake, & so the phony story is seen as just a part of the marketing ploy of the crook to pass the fake onto un unexperienced beginner, & has no relation to honest stories from actual veterans. Again, it's the savvy/ability to smell a rat when one's in the garbage pile.

Schloss-

Again, point well taken and I am not diminishing at all your experience with regared to dealing with vets. I love the vets and that is why I do a VA clinic,as it is not worth it financially. I further offer that the presenece of pieces in obtained from a vet with other original examples is a good sign. As above, I do believe that vet acquired pieces may be post war acquired through trading, or acquired post war. These guys are not liars. I am not suggesting that at all. I think that many times they have simply forgotten where they heck they got these pieces.

An example of the above was a psychological study in which people were filmed with their reaction and location to that reaction to the O.J. Simpson trial. They were asked ten years later where they were and what thier response was. The response given was not the actually experience, recorded on film, but was a unintentionaly confabulation based on media images.

Bottom line for me- Memories fade. I want some solid facts before I acknowledge that a piece that deviates from known wartime pieces is in fact a wartime original. No slam on the vets at all- I take extra time for these world war two guys, as they deserve our respect, but I am trained in evaluating data, not stories.

This seems to be a fight from another Forum. We don't need this here.

I am locking this until we figure who is who.

Dave

Topic open again.

If you don't agree with someone, that is OK, but please phrase your replies politely.

Thanks

Tom, if as you say you are 'trained in evaluating data, not stories', then how can you really believe in the preposterous story (in my opinion, & I hope I do not offend anyone), without providing any actual proof/data,- "postwar most makers of awards continued to make pcs as part of the souvenir market to GI.s" Name the Firms, when did this after-combat production resume, when did it stop, etc., please let us all know these concrete facts. Consider this: US Army takes over city of Ludenscheid; Nazi memorabilia production halted, many swastika items turned in by US Army Edict, to be burned, destroyed, turned into scrap-metal, etc. and/or be nabbed by souvenir-hunting GI's. Then the Plant Managers of F.W. Assmann, Berg & Nolte, Wilhelm Deumer, Freddy Linden, F&BL, & others, turn up in the office of the US Army City Commander one fine summer day in June 1945 & request that they be allowed to gear-up for & start production of Nazi swastika'd awards, in the best intentions of jump-starting the war-wrecked ecomony, to fill the demands of all those souvenir-hunting GI's. Yeah right. Especially when they had wooden bins full of finished wartime left-over badges/awards. As late as 1979, author JR Cone, while an Army 2dLt stationed in Germany, photographed wooden bins full of Nazi-produced awards in his visits to the awards firms; some are pictured in his old red-jacketed reference book on enameled badges, (not in the pirated blue-jacketed version). So Tom, it just doesn't make any sense to me that this story happened, with swastika-emblazoned things being destroyed on the left, & at the same time, swastika-emblazoned things being manufactured on the right. I am open to actual facts, not stories, & if proven to me, I'll be the first one to change my opinion.

quote:

Tom, if as you say you are 'trained in evaluating data, not stories', then how can you really believe in the preposterous story (in my opinion, & I hope I do not offend anyone), without providing any actual proof/data,- "postwar most makers of awards continued to make pcs as part of the souvenir market to GI.s" Name the Firms, when did this after-combat production resume, when did it stop,

Fact! As late as May 1953 one could buy any sort of medal, ribbon, or award up to and including Knight's Crosses, Oaks etc!

Sold openly in 'tailor' type shops even while negotians and discussions were going on for the 'new form' of awards to be issued.

Sorry Dave K.,your facts are NOT backed up with "facts", sounds like another great myth from the old gun show dudes, ok I'll bite, maybe it's possible, hey, I'm always open to new information coming forth from original source data on anything 3dReich. so show me or provide exacting data, where are you getting this from??, so what Firms were these, what were the Tailor Shops & in what cities/towns- provide actual facts please, or please, someone that's well-known in the awards hobby, enlighten me with proof that this happened, as I await facts, no more old wives' stories. Never heard this one before. Wow.

My dot versions came from the Schloss Klossheim hoard from members of the signal corps of the 3rd Division who took the castle in April 1945. No post war souviners here and directly from the veterans and with pictures from the castle takeover at their convention in Des Moines, Iowa, Tom (in your backyard). No post war items and no BS story.
SEVERAL members of this unit sold their medals to me and Jason Burmeister and others. Far too many veterans from the same unit with the same story to have had faded memories.
So, believe as you wish Tom, but I and several others are completely convinced about this particular medal being totally period original.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

How about a 'price list' from 1953?

Interesting to note the price of the DKiG....must have been popular sellers

Again, I agree that the presence of vet acquired pieces is a positive. However, the discrepencies are what I find disturbing (no pieces with provenance, differences in structural componants from accepted wartime original pieces, no kleins with dots). As Dave has pointed out in the catalog for items available for sale post war, awards were available to purchase. Without a piece with solid provenance, it becomes a matter of faith as far as what we all consider to be "enough" to consider a piece wartime. I think that if these pieces are in fact wartime, at some point a piece with fairly solid provenance should turn up as supporting evidence. Perhaps that will turn up in time, at which point I would change my mind. It is nagging me as to why the firm would change the wreath and the sunburst and stop whatever relationship they had with klein. I realize that other badges changed over the war, yet the wreath characterisitics of the other makers of DKiGs remained the same, even in going from the early 6 rivet deschlers to the heavy and light four rivet examples. Why such a departure for zimmerman?

German speakers?

Dave, nice List of awards. I like the prices. So where's the 1953 date & who's the Company?? Don't be afraid to post this info, no German firm is gonna get in trouble at this late stage. Your posting of 23.1.06 14:19 is not specific as to whether you were talking about postwar production being available to buy, or the availability of original wartime-produced leftovers that were sold openly, etc.,- so is this List you posted a list of 1953-produced pcs. or a list of wartime-made leftovers? I don't find it strange at all that wartime-made leftovers could be bought openly in 1953; heck, as late as 1977 I found original tinnies & original unissued mint bronze, silver, gold Motor Vehicle Driver Badges in envelopes in storage (hundreds) at the Rudolf Souval KG firm in Vienna. At that time the Drivers Badges had just about the same status to collectors as a tinnie. Or maybe you meant that the 1953 List was a list of postwar-made pcs. If this is the case, this List you posted is irrelevant as to the proof & facts I asked for; we are discussing awards brought back from the veterans of WW2 when they came back home in 1945/46; not fake junque items passed off to the Occupation Army during the korean War in 1953. So it isn't gonna fit the bill. If this is a List of 1953 repros, you seem to assume they are of high quality. Perhaps they were not, but were the usual junky stuff seen here in the USA at that time, or maybe the stuff was on par with the Souval stuff. Your 1953 List has much of the same terminology as the 1972 Rudolf Souval Listings. But no matter that about the quality, a 1953 List of repros available to the later Occupation Forces does not pertain to the time frame 1945/46 & the combat-veterans souvenir-hunting at that time. What else ya got?

The article is very specific and suggests that all items are new (not old stock) and can be ORDERED with a wait time of approx. 4 weeks.

For larger orders the owner would send a client directly to the manufacturer....in this case S&L is mentioned.

1

2

3

4

Interesting photos, Dave!

With pieces available to order via catalog (even with a ban on the swaz in post war germany) it begs the question as to when did the production of these wartime medals stop? Presumably juncker RK dies were destroyed during the war, but what happened to the dies of the other medals of other makers? The forensic evidence of post war S&L crosses, with increased flawing on "B" type pieces and the presence of 1957 pieces suggests the continuation of post war production. Further, the presence of zimmerman, K&Q, and schickle 1957 RKs would suggest that these makers continued to produce awards post war.

Did this occur for other awards? Apparently by the catalog above, it did. This would lead one to believe that the marked definitions of "post war" and "wartime" are a little more muddy than we have thought and perhaps a more valid categorization is characteristics consistent with wartime pieces vs not characteristic of wartime pieces. Fortunately for us, dies wear out eventually, such that if we define the specific features of a wartime piece, we can look for progression of flaws to make a presumption of a later manufacture date. Examination of '57 pieces has been helpful in this regard to RKs. Perhaps there is some information that would be helpful there as well with regard to the DKiGs?

I must admit that when doing motel buys 4 years ago, I ran into a German veteran in the Chicago area who had ordered from Steinhauer & Luck in the early 1950s several Knight's Crosses with original stock ribbons from Germany. Fortunately, the weight of the RKs was about 3 Gms. light and the workmanship, while better than the 1957 issue, was not up to WWII standards. The centers were great, but the frames were not too good.
I had mentioned this on WehrmachtAwards.com.
He also had a German Cross in Gold (pin was not the WWII style and was a banjo style and thin and Oaks and Oaks and swords (not near as good as 1957s, but with original stock ribbons).
So while Steinhauer & Luck DID manufacture just after WWII, the quality of the DKiG was not as good as wartime. It also appeared that some of the leftover stock was being used (the ribbon was identical to WWII issue and the cases for the crosses were original stock).
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

The evidence is 'out there' and has been for 50+ years BUT the stories put forth by crooked dealers about late war, shortages, rush orders, lack of technical/artistic man-power and on and on and on has just fed hungry collectors and lined the dealers' pockets.

Todays fakes are much more refined than those of the 70's BUT do fall short of the post war productions of the 50's!

It's too bad that there's such a denial or non-acceptance that production didn't stop only wore out and by then the 'new' varients were fed to the very hungry collectors!

I'm probably pouring kerosene on a burning fire here but I'm going to do it as unfortunately there's probably a lot more post war assembled stuff out there floating around than anyone cares to admit. The idea that production stopped at wars end is ludicrious on badges,daggers or any other small collectible to me. These people needed income,faced potential starvation and would do anything to secure food for their families.
I've been digging into the dagger assembly that was going on in the late 40s and 50s for at least 3 years and what I've uncovered leads me to believe that a great many daggers were post war assembled out of leftover parts. Furthrmore these daggers were wholesaled to a few large American dealers and entered the collectors market through them.
Those that state otherwise IMO have a vested interest in trying to keep the majority of the collecting community clueless about how widespread these practices were.
Jim

Jim, you are absolutely correct! There's no doubt that this occured and the 'production' is embraced today.

Don't limit this post war production to metal though...it runs the full spectrum of what we collect!

There are just too many unfortunate people who have bought these 'reproductions' and want to believe that they own a war time item that they tend to drown out the folks who know what went on.....

I took of a couple of remarks that were in reference to a fight from another Forum.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
I took of a couple of remarks that were in reference to a fight from another Forum.

Dave

Oh come on Dave. My post was simply welcoming Tom and my reference "to a fight from another forum" was more vague than yours is.

Why did you delete my entire post?

I know that this is one reason I am having a declining interest in this forum. There is to be no mention of any other forum (or that other forums exist), any dealer, etc.

How about lightening up a little?

I'm with Dave on this one..Don't think there should be any hint of another forum or dealer here when discussing a piece..
It is the piece itself that must pass the scrutiny..If a certain piece can be proven bad for example it will be bad no matter what dealer site or forum its on.

I'm with Dave on this one also and Gaspere has it right on, the item is waht we are here to discuss not a particular dealer or forum said whatever. Lets keep things on topic and keep the other stuff out.

Fritziii

Well, here is the edited version:

Am I missing something here or am I just confused? I thought it was well known that Souval produced medals long after the war years as well as S&L. I have seen several fakes produced by Souval. Their post-war manufacturing is of much lower quality.

And to think that there are no veterans who might have forgotten where they obtained an award 20 years ago or even might just want to rip someone off is rather naive.

I have a lot of respect for our veterans. But, they are just like any large group of people: there are going to be good ones and bad ones.

Do you really think that any veteran selling a fake must not be a real veteran? Come on. Veterans are arrested for far worse crimes than this all the time.

Schloss 1, I was hoping you would be back but it's been a bit quiet!

I'd appreciate your thoughts and hate to see a good discussion just fade away...

Hi Dave,
I haven't paid any attention to this subject since you posted your 1953-dated periodical proof that decorations were being made/offered in 1953, during the time of the Korean War, & available to Korean War era Army soldiers while stationed in Germany. By the way, very nice bit of information. But we were talking about decorations made 1945/1946 supposedly made then & available to actual World War 2 veterans in those years,- not things made in 1953, not just the 8-years-after-the-war production most of us have been aware of for years; we were talking about what was brought back by WW2 veterans as being original, not 1953-made baubles brought back by US Army Occupation troops in 1953. I applaud your proof of decorations made / available as far back as 1953. However I wonder of the quality of this stuff, which may have been equal to that (low quality) sold at the same time by the Insignia Collectors Club of Rockaway Park, NY.
By the way, S&L & Rudolf Souval have been thrown into the limelight, but nobody has mentioned the postwar production of the late great Dr. Kurt G. Klietmann, of "Die Ordens Sammlung", Berlin, Wielandstrasse 16, I have here his olde yellowed fragile 1964 Listing of the whole gamut of "Neuanfertigung" decorations, to include both Nazi & Imperial German. His "stuff", from 40 years ago, & also from not very long ago, haunts valued proud collections. For the Rudolf Souval zealots, I have a few of their complete Listings from the early 1970's, showing each & every item available, prices, etc. But alas, I have nothing of 1945-1946 production.

.