UBB.threads
Posted By: derjager SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:09 PM
In an attempt to save this older thread I am moving content to this new heading.
Don Scowen started this thread with this image.

Thanks Don, --dj--Joe

Attached picture Sa_don's.JPG
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
reverse

Attached picture SA-Res-II_rev.jpg
Posted By: münster Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Fancy meeeting you here Don! Nice detail on the pin!
Posted By: Minnesinger Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Thats a lovely little pin you have got there Don.
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Thanks lads.

Hi Dion, it's a small world isn't it Wink

Cheers
Don
Posted By: Gold Party Pin Guy Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
The SAR is a nice pin. It's unusual to find one with a nice maker's mark like yours.

By the way, most people don't realize the central device is an old style military hat (shako).
Posted By: Robin Lumsden Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Party Pin Guy:
The SAR is a nice pin. It's unusual to find one with a nice maker's mark like yours.

By the way, most people don't realize the central device is an old style military hat (shako).


Stephen.
I've had one of these for years and always wondered what the middle bit was. You're right - it's a shako! Do you know what significance the wings had for the SA reserve??
Posted By: J.R.Scott Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Nice score Don. Smile
Posted By: Minnesinger Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
I didn´t notice that before, but now that you mentioned it! Thanks for the info Stephen.
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Good addition to your collection.
What is the makers mark if you don't mind? What I can make out looks like a crown atop a shield enclosing a letter.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Well I never..... A shako indeed, so it is, I hadn't seen it either, thanks Stephen.

The maker mark is HB under a crown, I couldn't get a decent shot of it, sorry.

I also have a neat pic of one in wear.

Cheers
Don

Attached picture SA_R.jpg
Posted By: Gold Party Pin Guy Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
I suspect the wings are simply eagle wings taken from the Hoheitsabzeichen (party lapel eagle), and have nothing to do with flight.

Next I suppose you'll want to know what the G-H-L on the early Frauenschaft badges stands for (and JR Cone says are unknown) Wink
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
OK Stephen, you knew I'd bite didn't you? Big Grin

I've often wondered what this stood for..... Please enlighten me Confused

Cheers
Don
Posted By: Gold Party Pin Guy Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Hi Don,

Sorry to be such a tease.

Cone in "One People, One Reich" says no one knows what the G-H-L stands for on 2nd pattern Frauenshaft badges. Drum roll please...

It stands for "Glaube, Hoffe, Liebe", otherwise known as "Faith, Hope & Love" taken from Saint Paul's Letter to the Ephesians (often mistranslated as "Faith, Hope & Charity").

One collecting mystery down, a couple million to go...
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Hi Stephen,

Thanks for clearing that mistery up for me. As I mentioned before, I had often pondered over the meaning of those letters. Cool
Cheers
Don
Posted By: J.R.Scott Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
How does this one look ? The enamel is good, you'll see a glare under the swastika (from the scanner).

thanks

Attached picture SA_Pin.JPG
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Jamie, from what I see it appears good. Congrats.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Same with me, looks fine. I haven't yet seen one of these that looks like it's a fake. bet they have been thou'..... Frown

Cheers
Don
Posted By: J.R.Scott Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Thanks for the comments. Smile
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Any others out there? Different maker marks?
Show 'em if ya got 'em. Smile

--dj--Joe
Posted By: WWII Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Gents,

I'm glad to be able to add to this interesting thread.

Don - same maker but check out the differences.

Best to all!

Bill

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Posted By: WWII Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
2/2

Attached picture SAreserverevsm.jpg
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:10 PM
Nice one Bill.

I doubt that the differences are as much as they seem. When I took those images 3 years ago I was trying to get used to a new camera & took the pix in direct sun Roll Eyes

Bye the way, not sure if you saw it on an recent post but I think we can now safely say that this maker was Hermann Bauer, Schwäbisch, Gmünd. They used an identical mark on their silverware.

Cheers
Don
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:19 PM
I'll take this opportunity to add my images. Same maker though. Wink
Obverse.
--dj--Joe

Attached picture SA_reserve.jpg
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:21 PM
Reverse.
The spiral marks on the pin are different. Big Grin
--dj--Joe

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Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 05:45 PM
Nice one Joe.

In fact, now that you mention it we have three different knurling types with the same maker. Mine, Bill's & yours are all different.

I have often suspected that many of the badge/pin manufacturers bought in the attaching pins & fixings in bulk from specialist makers. Somewhere (although at the moment it escapes me exactly where Confused) I've seen a period add for them... I'll have to have a hunt around.

Cheers
Don
Posted By: bushido Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 09:29 PM
Just picked up this one for Christmas. Can give more details, particularly regarding the maker's mark when it arrives. ~ Ian

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Posted By: bushido Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 09:30 PM
Reverse

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Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2008 09:45 PM
Now that does look interesting, can't say I've seen that mark before.....

Looking forward to seeing more.

Cheers
Don
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/02/2008 10:51 AM
Don, did you have any luck finding the period add for knurled pins? Sounds interesting.

Ian, could you give us a close up of your maker mark? It's a new one for me.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/11/2008 10:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by derjager:
Don, did you have any luck finding the period add for knurled pins? Sounds interesting.
--dj--Joe


Indeed I did Joe, but only about two weeks ago!!

It was an ad from "Der Uniformen-Markt" shown in Frank Heukemes book on the General Assault Badge to illustrate the same point.

Here's a scan from page 414 of Frank's book.

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Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/11/2008 10:35 AM
Here's a closer shot of the ad.

As it's taken from a period paper the illustration in the book isn't that good due to the "dot print" used during that period.

Again credit to the book "The General Assault Badge" by Frank Heukemes.

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Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/11/2008 04:59 PM
Thanks for passing along this information Don. I wonder if there are other manufacturers adds out there somewhere that show different pins and pin retaining bases?
This is most usefull. I recognize most of these attachments. I can picture them now on enamel badges, stickpins, tinnies, red cross and RAD broaches etc.

Regards,--dj--Joe
Posted By: all1knew Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/14/2008 02:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Don Scowen:
Well I never..... A shako indeed, so it is, I hadn't seen it either, thanks Stephen.


Hello there,

Well, I don't see it and would appreciate some help....

William Kramer
Posted By: Doug Kenwright Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/21/2008 06:33 AM
William, perhaps this picture seen head-on will help..the depiction of the Tschako on the pin is actually closer to a French style than German..image from military heritage.com

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Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 03:30 PM
Here's another maker I found in my files. Don't seem to have the actual pin anymore Confused

Cheers
Don

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Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 03:30 PM
Rev

Attached picture SA_2.jpg
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 03:32 PM
Maker mark Æ

Attached picture SA_3.jpg
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 05:59 PM
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?

Funny that there aren't more inwear pictures of this pin about.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 06:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by derjager:
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?

Funny that there aren't more inwear pictures of this pin about.

--dj--Joe


Ah, now that would be telling Wink

Here's another pic I have.

Attached picture SA_4.jpg
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 06:48 PM
Smile. That's a nice picture. I do not recognize the cap emblems.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 08:53 PM
Here you go. It looks slightly different but I think it's the same type. I think that the outer line/border of the EK has blurred out in the period image......

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Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 05/31/2008 11:06 PM
Ahh, RKB. I never would have gotten that.

Thanks Don.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 06/07/2008 11:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by derjager:
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?
--dj--Joe


Here you go Joe...... Wink

Attached picture SA_rII_ob.jpg
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 06/07/2008 11:52 AM
Other side

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Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 06/07/2008 11:52 AM
mark

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Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 06/07/2008 05:26 PM
Big Grin Was hoping it would find a home.

The nagging critter in the back of my mind tells me I have seen the AE mark before somewhere, someplace, but where? Confused

--dj--Joe
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 06/21/2008 06:48 PM
Any thoughts as to who the maker 'S' surounded with dashes was?

--dj--Joe
Posted By: DASH Re: SA-Reserve II. - 09/15/2008 04:30 AM
Unable to post a picture of my SAR now, but it has the standard Ges. Gesch on the wings, but the maker mark is the letter C superimposed over a T or F (or a T or F over a C). Haven't the slightest idea of who it is, and always thought the design was a searchlight beam.

Dan
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 09/27/2008 05:57 PM
Dan, what comes to my mind is Franke & Co. It would be F,C,L in a circle. L = Lüdenscheid.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: DASH Re: SA-Reserve II. - 09/28/2008 02:55 AM
Joe - Thank you for your reply.

It probably is Franke & Co. In taking a close up look with a loupe, it appears to be a definate "T" (with a small cross mark halfway up - so most likely really an "F"), with a smaller "C" superimposed on it. No circle or "L".

As far as I am concerned, Franke & Co. - F&C is it.

Thank you again, Dan
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 09/28/2008 03:41 PM
Here is a drawing of the FCL mark attributed to Franke & Co.

Attached picture scan000FCL.jpg
Posted By: DASH Re: SA-Reserve II. - 10/01/2008 02:14 AM
Joe -Thanks for the picture - it's worth a thousand words!

Looking at the pin, the "F" leans slightly to the left, and the drooping lip on the top right end of the bar is barely visible. Center bar is in the same place but is equal on both sides. The "C" is the same right down to the small lip on top. But there is no "L" or circle.

I'm comfortable with Franke & Co. since the designs are really very close. It is probably just a trade mark variation, possibly because of the small available size area on the bottom of the pin.

Thanks again, Dan
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 08/02/2010 08:46 PM
Back around, hoping for more makers marks. smile

--dj--Joe
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/01/2024 10:02 PM
Might as well drag this back into the light of the day. 2024 smile

Any new ones?

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/10/2024 08:43 AM
Do you know whether the SAR II were covered by the RZM Joe? All the pins I've ever seen have individual makers marks. However, whilst flitting around the net the other day I came across one with an early transitional RZM mark.... RZM 96.

Questions;

1: The RZM mark looks as though it may have a lazy M so is it a fake?'
2: If not a fake, when did the SAR II disappear? Did they go around the time the RZM was introduced explaining why we do not see the pins marked with it?

Don

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Posted By: Gaspare Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/10/2024 06:48 PM
can't answer your questions but.. I had a couple of these over the years. One was with a RZM.. It sure enough looked authentic.. Like this one,,good twist on pin,,details good. Can't really see the enamel but mine was real enamel..
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/10/2024 08:22 PM
I'll have to do some reading up on the subject of your question Don.
As to the lazy M in RZM I have noted some sloppy letters in the GES. GESCH. markings of some badges. Almost free hand lettering.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/10/2024 09:02 PM
Having a time nailing down a date for the decree of a visible RZM copyright protection symbol/code, on Reichszeugmeisterei controlled items.
1934 for the codes? 1929 for the establishment of the Reichszeugmeisterei body? Will keep reading but it would be good if someone more knowledgeable on the subject would comment.

1934, with Röhm's death. The influence of the SA began it's decline?

If I recall correctly I have seen a document with dual service images of the SA reserve II and the Kyffhäuserbund or the NSRKB. (?). Not sure where I saw the document. (If I could locate it there might be a visible date).
--dj--Joe
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/10/2024 10:57 PM
Neither here nor there, I have read that the SA Reserve II was for SA members over 45 years of age.

The more I read the more confusing it becomes with date timelines and the absorption of other units.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/12/2024 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gaspare
can't answer your questions but.. I had a couple of these over the years. One was with a RZM.. It sure enough looked authentic.. Like this one,,good twist on pin,,details good. Can't really see the enamel but mine was real enamel..

That's very interesting Gaspare. I don't suppose by any chance you can remember whether it was a transitional (like the one above) or whether it had the M1 designation?

Thanks Joe, sorry I was out all day yesterday so unable to partake in the discussion....

I've had a good hunt around the net & with dealer sites to see whether that are any documents. I'm starting to suspect that they were a short lived group.... I found an invitation to join the SAR II dated 1934 (sign up was 10th Feb through 12th March)...

Attached picture 31079404380_2.jpg
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/12/2024 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by derjager
If I recall correctly I have seen a document with dual service images of the SA reserve II and the Kyffhäuserbund or the NSRKB. (?). Not sure where I saw the document. (If I could locate it there might be a visible date).

--dj--Joe

There are a few membership cards shown on various sites. Interestingly, I could not find one dated past July 1934.... This site has a short description on the group towards that bottom of the page & also shows two documents (dated June & July) https://moonwheel.eu/dues%203/sub%20nsdap%207/sa.html

Going back to my original question. I believe that the SA were covered by the RZM, so it is possible that the SAR could have been as well, although generally vet groups were not. It could also be that as the piece above is transitional, the manufacturer made a mistake & used an RZM number in error, making it an anomaly...

Attached picture German-Third-Reich-SA-Reserve-II-enamel-stickpin-with-paperwork_1626171558_7463.jpg
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 01/13/2024 10:26 PM
Good find on the documents Don. I never did locate the one I recall. Must have sold.
I did read that the badge was approved in March 1934, but cannot confirm that.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 02/01/2024 11:32 AM
Whilst meandering around the net I came across another RZM marked piece, RZM 39. Quite roughly marked on the reverse, but otherwise looks OK.

Attached picture P1012939-2.jpg
Attached picture P1012945-2.jpg
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 02/02/2024 12:44 AM
Don,
looks OK to me. Good sighting.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Reichskriegerbun Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/12/2024 10:25 AM
Badge | The badge for the members of the SAR II, designed by Colonel (ret.) Reinhard as the colonel commandant of the SA Reserve II and federal leader of the Reichskriegerbund, in the design of a Landsturmtschako from the time of the Freedom Wars with a swastika and two wings, was approved by the Supreme SA leadership on 25 March 1934. Reinhard owned all rights to this badge, it was protected by law and could not be obtained commercially

Delivery problems on the part of the manufacturers meant that the badges were not delivered until 24 June 1934. As the majority of SAR II men had further requirements in addition to the pins supplied free of charge, all sales outlets authorised by the Reichszeugmeisterei, which was responsible for production and distribution, were approved for sale in agreement with the Supreme SA leadership. The procurement office of the Reichskriegerbund took over the production and distribution until the end of October 1934. These badges bear the inscription "GES. GESCH." for "legally protected" and the mark of the manufacturer licensed by the Procurement Office of the Reich Warriors' Union. In the bulletin of the Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM) No. 23 of 3 November 1934, the RZM announced that the badge could now only be obtained from the RZM and that it must bear the protection mark and the RZM approval number on the reverse. Procurement via the Reichskriegerbund was no longer possible. The membership badge was only available in silver colour. Gold-coloured pieces are forgeries of the original badge.

The quality of the badge repeatedly caused major problems for the wearers and after numerous complaints, the Reichskriegerbund pointed out in the "Parole Book" that the badge was a relatively delicate object that had to be treated accordingly. If the metal plate on the back of the badge had become detached due to faulty soldering, it was exchanged free of charge. On 1 December 1935, the Oberstlandesführer published the measures for the dissolution of the SAL (formerly SAR II) on 31 December 1935. The badge with the winged tchako and swastika was no longer allowed to be worn. Permission to continue wearing it as a commemorative badge was refused by the Supreme SA leadership.
Posted By: Reichskriegerbun Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/12/2024 03:37 PM
1. Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid
2. Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid
3. Ferdinand Hoffstädter, Bonn
4. Hermann Bauer, Schwäbisch Gmünd

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Posted By: Reichskriegerbun Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/12/2024 03:50 PM
unknown marker

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Posted By: Reichskriegerbun Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/12/2024 03:52 PM
unknown marker

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Posted By: Reichskriegerbun Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/12/2024 04:04 PM
Two tinnies with SA-Res II sign

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Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/12/2024 11:24 PM
Peter, very informative. Thank you. I understand the timeline now. You have answered many questions.
Two of the unknown makers are new to me. ( With a vivid imagination one looks like a Chimera standing on an E ).
Do I see correctly that the second tinnie/day badge has a 1936 date?

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/13/2024 05:53 AM
Hi Peter,

Welcome back!

This is great information, thank you so much. So if I understand you correctly RZM marked pieces were available from November 1934?

Don
Posted By: NSRKB Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/13/2024 06:51 AM
Good Morning. Yes, RZM started in November 1934. And, the second tinnie has a date 1935.
Its nice to be here again!
Posted By: Don Scowen Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/13/2024 08:05 AM
Thank you for your quick reply Peter. I learn so when you are here cool
Posted By: derjager Re: SA-Reserve II. - 03/14/2024 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by NSRKB
Good Morning. Yes, RZM started in November 1934. And, the second tinnie has a date 1935.
Its nice to be here again!

Peter, thank you.
--dj--Joe
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