Hi All:

Some of you may have seen the partially ground SS Röhm dagger for sale at Regimentals.com (item 45124) that is numbered 44 284. SS No. 44 284 was assigned to SS-Hauptsturmführer Toni Urlaub. I have been looking for a partially ground identifiable SS dagger and investigated this one further after it was first posted. Urlaub is listed in the 1935-1938 SS-Dienstalterslistes and has a SS Officer File and Race & Settlement File in the National Archives. I was initially excited to find a photo of him in his SS Officer File.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

His SS Officer File contained five copies his SS-Stammrolle and his Führerstammkarte. Three of the SS-Stammrolle were in the format adopted in 1934 where it was to be recorded if the person received the Enrendolches der SA (SS). All of his cards clearly indicate that he had not. The portion that I posted here even carries the later correction for when he received his Totenkopfring.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

He had not become a full member of the SS until December 1932. His Fragebogen, shown below, that he filled out records that he had not been a member of the SA or HJ prior to the SS which would have qualified him if all had taken place before 31 December 1931. Since I have yet to see any order concerning a change in who received the Ehrendolch, I'll let someone else acquire this one. Hate to own things that I have to later make apologies for. See you at the SOS!

Due to the snow, the National Archives & the rest of the Federal government in D.C. have been shut down for an unprecedented five days. Your tax dollars not at work this week.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Mark it sold!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

So what did the dagger look like ?

Jim

I will post pictures once I receive the dagger.

quote:

Originally posted by North of 55:
Jim

I will post pictures once I receive the dagger.

Great, looking forward to it for my files.

Do you mean the dagger became "ground Röhm" after the war?

Ross on the Fragebogen he answers one question with nein i.e. no but are the other questions including the ehrendegen and todtenkopf ring ones answered with a tick i.e. saying yes some of them look definitely like ticks whilst others look more like forward slashes.How do other Fragebogen look when answered in the affirmative if they are ticks he was in the SA and the HJ makes sense that they are otherwise surely he would have answered nein as he did to one question shown surely

Hi AJ:

He used "./." and "/" in other parts of his Fragbogen where the requested information did not apply. His Führerstammkarte also does not indicate service in the SA or HJ.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

It looks like he answered "Ja" for the honor ring and "nein" for the guestion,Were you a political leader? All other questions are clearly marked and answered with slash marks.
Slash marks mean what? Is it the same as N/A (non applicable or not available)which is used to indicate the deliberate omission of information? Or simply means doesn't apply and will use slash marks to fill in the blank spaces so the paperwork looks properly filled in?

Ross you replied before I asked the question, man your fast. Got it, / eguals doesn't apply.

Cheers Ross thanks for the explanation wouldn't be keen to own that dagger in light of the paper trail you have uncovered
Tony

Pictures Partial SS Rohm Number 44284

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Nice one, more pictures please.

Few more

#2

This appears to be a nice example with a lot of charactor, and history. A truly unique find.

I have a ground similar SS Rohm by Eichorn, may I ask what they are worth. Without all the research, of course.

Personally I dont like that dedication one bit, looks like it could have been post war applied IMO.

I have a fake that looks very similar with all the crossgrain polished out then they re apply a dedication. Looks to heavy in parts for me. You might want to get that under a digital microscope to be on the safe side.

Herder full rohm

Hereder Ground rohm, I just bought this one last week.

Sorry just enlarged the pic

I will post you some more pics when I am home tommorow as close up comparisons. But get someone to check it out in hand to make sure you have not bought a lemon, like Frederick Stevens or Gailen etc. From the pictures I would have some concerns over that piece and also from the stuff that Ross posted.

Far better safe than sorry, people dont like to imply something could be wrong but I felt the need to raise the red flag for you on it.

Thanks for the input, I did purchase it from a reputable dealer. But that being said. You never know and I have heard of post war inscription which does concern me.
I will be getting a opinion on the dagger.

Mario

Dear Mario very wise move... you have a great dealer in Canada you might try, or send it to one of the experts on here.

Im afraid just because it comes from a dealer does not mean it is right.

Here you are, this one turned up in the post today from Vets son in the US.I have taken some better pictures. it still has all the cross grain on the blade and a deep burnish both sides. But you can see that the dedication is finer to look at and not as deep as the one you have.

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Using logic and common sense: The SS man himself declares that he was NOT entitled to carry an honor dagger, so there are 3 solutions possible (assuming it is not parts dagger):
1. According to the SS number stamped on the crossguard the dagger belonged to him and the dedication is post war.
2. Dedication is original to the blade and whole dagger, but the number was added post war.
3. Both dedication and number are post war done to enhance the value

Is there any other option? Sorry, but "it comes from the dealer = it must be authentic" is worth to me as much as "they told it on TV = it must be truth".

Nicely wrote Adam!

Lukas.

Scroll down a few threads to the one started by Hakan81 re a Haenel SA partial Rohm imo the dedication is the same dremel job as this Herder
Bit late to get a hands on done now should have asked someone to visit FJS perhaps and OKed it first can't see you getting a return after so long but hope you do.

I thank you all for your input. I have compared the inscription on my SA rohm and yes there is a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sh.........
Adam good point.
Well sending it off for a writen report and then lets see what happens.

Mario

"They" could have done much better with the fonts they picked out to stamp the crossguard.

-serge-

Well I have a report on this dagger.
Looks like the blade is good but the serial number is not period, And the dagger has lower crossguard issues {alteration} and the grip is not orginal to this dagger.
{Parts dagger}
Not something I want in my collection.
Thanks guys.
This site is great

Mario

Can you return it & get your money back from the selling dealer ?

Go get your money back!

I have sent a request for a return. See what happens.

Just to let you know the Dagger is going back.
Getting money back.

Nice result. Glad for you!

Mongo - can you post the PICs of the fake SS in your possesion as a warning on what to whach out?