I thought the dagger aspect of the hobby was the safest because identifying a phony dagger was simple...Are the fakers getting good enough to fool us with these yet?
How far away is that reality? It would seem, in theory that the makers of these daggers in the 30s and 40s could start turning them out again with the same qualities like craftmanship and crossgraining, etc..I am a new dagger guy, so I
dont know alot about this aspect yet, but I would love to hear some opinions as to whether you guys think its just a matter of time, or if you believe that they may get very close to replicating them, but will never be able to fool someone who knows what theyre looking at...
Tex,
The basic daggers are very hard to fake. That is because they were made using many components from quality sources that had tight quality control. Look at the parts of a polical (SA/SS)dagger:
Tang nut
1 upper crossguard
1 lower crossguard*
1 rune button
1 eagle
1 wood grip*
1 blade
1 scabbard shell - 2 parts*
1 upper fitting - 2 parts*
1 lower fitting - 2 parts
1 carrying assembly - 2 parts
1 throatpiece assembly - 6 parts*
2 upper screws
2 lower screws
* these parts must have a common radius for a correct fit.
The fakers cannot find half these parts today. They use a combination of faked/altered parts to make a ruined dagger look better or fake a rare maker or fake a more valuable (like SS) dagger. Handle enough of these and the basic fakery is not to hard to see.
Where I think (note this is just my opnion) the fakers have a field day is with things that cannot be proven conclusively as real.
- Dedications, inscriptions, and numbers added to good basic daggers. These are hard to verify and doubly difficult because engraving styles, abbreviations, punches, etc all varied. You will see endless debates here over these additions. In the end, it is often a judgement call.
- Damascus blades. Different patterns were used at the time and some were used a lot more than others. Does unfamiliar mean fake ? Who knows, but the people who put in fake damascus blades depend on this.
- High end specials. These are elaborate fakes or put-togethers that are mostly claimed to be one-time-only awards or presentations. These fakes were aimed at the high-roller collectors, not the common guy. They were seen in earlier times beforethe Internet and forums like this spread the word, but you see them now and then on "dagger wall pictures".
That's my 2c
Dave
WOW...
Thanks for that response...Very informative...
A lot of info there, and I appreciate it..
I think anything that was made 70 years ago is much easier to make I mean fake today.Cloth and medals are but two examples.I read once that a very well known dealer said that most Himmler daggers were iffy(is that a word).Look at the million dollar paintings that can be faked why not daggers.Since I have been on this site a short time I have seen some very scary daggers.Its all in the value of the items.With computer controlled machining,lazer etching.How hard is it to make an inscription on a dagger blade.1st you draw it out on paper,then the blade,then you do a skim cut like lets say .005 so you can remove it if its not right,then cut it to the exact depth of the obverse motto and presto changeo a $15000.00 Rohm dagger.Think about it Hitler had about 5000 people killed in the SA on the night of the long knifes.So a SS man is going to not obey an order 1.He does not want to scratch up his shiney new dagger I'm sure HH will understand.2.It looks so cool I hate to mess it up.3.In the future these unground Rohms will be worth alot of money.What I'm saying is there is probably 6 real ones.I am not even talking about the 80K SS Honor dagger.Lets see Helmut we can make a PORSCHE witk 57.000.00 parts and sell it for $75.000.00 0r a SS Honor dagger with 12 and sell it for $75.000.00 I wonder which one would be harder.BUYER BEWARE.IMO.
I do not think fakers bother with low value items, they may embelish an item with a low end cost as Dave said by adding a unit number or personalise an item to add a few pounds to the price. I have been advised to read as many of the authored books as possible and I pass this advice on when I can. The handling and inspecting of items at shows is also a good method of helping to identify a copy. All reputable dealers will give you a guarantee and a period of time to inspect an item. I use that time to check against items in my collection, post queries on these forums and seek informed opinions.
I have been bitten a few times but only through stepping outside my knowledge area. I am going to catalogue groupings of my collection and take high quality scans, store these on a laptop and when I go shopping I have a ready reference to hand. There are a lot of collectors out there always moving stock around and upgrading IMO that is a safe area to start and build your own collection.
Regards
Gentlemen,
The higher the prices, the more fakers are attracted to the hobby/business and the better the copies become. It's just simple economics: demand and supply!
In my opinion, an expensive, high-end item should always be traced to where it came from untill the war times! The more dealers in the chain of provenance... the more attention should be paid! Display of the piece in a known reference book is no garantee of authenticity, only a good sign, in my opinion.
We are lucky that there are some "safer" area's in the hobby though: simple SA's for instance. It takes the faker the same effort (or costs) to copy an SA or an SS enlisted man's dagger, so of course he chooses to copy the SS dagger, which brings in 3 to 4 times more money. Personaly I believe that today, perfect copies of SS daggers are produced.
Another example is the HJ leader dagger, I believe this very rare dagger is also perfectly copied at this moment. If you want to, you can easily buy 10 pieces of this "super rare" dagger today, they are available on the market, though you rarely hear of a collector who wishes to sell his example of this dagger...
Try to find in one day 10 very nice conditioned simple HJ knifes (of wich millions were made!)... you will have a very hard time, even if you are willing to pay top dollar prices! Why is this? Because, so far no perfect copy of the HJ knife exist...
Just my opinion.
Best regards,
Herman
One dagger that I have seen in great shape alot of times is the chained NSKK,not to many beaters.The rarer the dagger the better shape they are in.I concur
You guys are making this repro thing way too easy. Just think, if it is as easy as you say it is, why did Rex Reddick have sooo much trouble finding blade manufacturers in Germany to reproduce the blades he sold to the collecting community and why aren't they perfect, non-detectable??
The answer is: It ain't that easy. This is especially true when the machines producing the blades and the craftmen producing the blades can't make the final product as good or as close as the ones who did it 75 years ago.
With damascus or on rare presentation items, its worse, so don't tell me that it is being done all the time and it isn't hard.
If it was true, there would be hundreds of rare items offered every day. It just doesn't happen. Period.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
There are hundreds of rare items offered every day.The whole dagger does not need to be made ,just embellish the blade a bit.Fakes abound in this hobby and everybody knows it.Fakes are made by Producing,embellishing, fantasy,parts,restored,inscribed.There are two or three fake rare daggers on this site everyday
I totaly agree Zorro, hundreds of rare items CAN be bought via the web. And MUCH MORE via the shows all over the world...
Example, last weekend during a local, monthly show in Belgium, if I wanted, I could buy: a SA full R�hm, a SS Himmler, a DLV 55 cm, a Postschutz (everywhere this rare specimen is offered lately...) and 3 (yes, three!) HJ high leader's. I am talking qualitative made items here, not copies like honor SS that even a child can spot! Problem with this rare birds: you do not see them often, so how to compare?
In my opinion the worst are the dedicated pieces: full (and even partial) R�hm SA or SS and SS Himmlers. You add a simple, well made and correctly positioned etch to an original dagger and... oops! You earned several thousands of dollars easy money!
How much SS Himmlers were made? 200 was the number everyone agreed on for several decades, 200 is the number that is written in all the major references... AND the SS man's number should be written in the guards!
Now, since a few years, some people in the business are saying that "much more were offered by Himmler"... of course... MUCH MORE ARE BEING SOLD as SS Himmler! AND without the SS number in the guards...
These are just the thoughts of a happy
but realistic collector.
Best greetings,
Herman
Forgot to mention this: at this particular show in Belgium last weekend, only 1 decent conditioned HJ knife was offered, which I have bought of course...
Best regards,
Herman
Himmler and Rohm daggers are the worst,just all over the place and always in just great shape.Himmler and Rohm dagger that are fully ground without a trace of inscription are just ruined daggers. IMO.
Herr Mann,
My best information is that:
- The SS ordered the men who were given Rohm (not Himmler) dedication daggers to put their SS numbers on those daggers. Most people think the number of those daggers issued was 9900. A few disagree with that number.
- Early reference books put the number of Himmler dedication daggers at 200. Whether that was the actual initial order or one of those facts that appeared out of nowhere and got repeated, no one knows. I can tell you that the dealers and collectors that I know think the number of Himmler daggers was significantly higher. The guesses run from 2000 to 5000. Unissued Himmlers were found and brought home by GIs in their original bags. See pages 100 & 101 of Tom Wittmann's book.
- I have never seen a Himmler with a serial number. Some guys may have added their, but it was not an SS order as was the case with the Rohm daggers.
Thank you Dave,
for giving your valuable input on this "hot" topic.
I have a French reference book that says the Himmler daggers got the SS numbers... I'll look it up. The book could be wrong, I don't question your expertise on this matter.
But the 200 Himmlers (that most books referring to until the 80'ies) becoming... UP TO 5000! That puts a big questionmarck about when those 4800 additional dedications were produced, don't you think?
And also, my remark about the SS numbers remains valid, but for the SS R�hm's: I experience that most of the SS R�hm daggers (especially full R�hms) that are being sold today have no SS number in the guards...
Zorro,
The Rohm's that I trust to collect are the (mostly fully ground) examples, that still bear the special R�hm makersmarks: smaller marks (like Eickhorn or Klaas) or the normal marks that were positioned closer to the guards (like Pack, Haenel and others) in order to make place for the dedication, they can not be questioned of being a R�hm, in my opinion. The ones I just described are becomming rare birds, as most of the R�hms that are sold today bear the normal makersmarck almost touching the dedication... they are considered correct...
Best regards,
Herman
Dave,
The French book I am referring to is "Les dagues du IIIe Reich" by Charles Mermet and Jean Marfault, dated 1981, 2nd edition "Reviewed and corrected".
It says, (I translate): "Following the purge of Juin 30th 1934, the Reichsf�rer SS decided on 3rd July to reward and hand over himself 200 daggers to the brave and loyal SS men... not a single additional dagger of this type was rewarded afterwards...". The book also states "...in theory, the guard had to be market with the SS adhesion number of the rewarded SS man..."
You are correct that, concerning the R�hm daggers, there was an official order (of April 12th 1934) that the guards of the daggers had to be engraved with the SS adhesion number.
If I remenber well, the Angolia and the Johnson reference books say the same thing about the 200 Himmler daggers... So why would we, 25 years later, start to question the research previously done by these men? The bibliography of the book I refer to is quite impressive. These early researchers had the possibility to interview the people "who were there" and "to whom the daggers were rewarded", France borders to Germany as you know!
So why would we, 25 years later, start to believe that 5000 of these daggers were rewarded?
Is there another reason than: "we experience that too many daggers are being sold as Himmlers" and that "the ones who got them are now gone, so they will not correct us by telling that they were only 200 to get this dagger?"
Would be very interesting if more members would share their opinion on this.
Best greetings,
Herman
Herr Mann,
I have that book myself and I speak and read French very well. Like ALL reference books, there are some errors.
All I can conclude is that the authors repeated what was printed in earlier reference books about there being only 200 Himmler dedication daggers made. I notice on page 49, they repeat another old (and false) story about the SS crossguards being stamped with Roman numerals from I to XIII.
As for Himmler dedication daggers being stamped with the man's SS number, I have never seen or heard one with a number ..... but who knows?
Have you seen one ?
As for the number 200, no one knows where it came from, but most people thought it was true up until about 25-30 years ago. I think that it was the big militaria shows like MAX and SOS that got large groups of dealers/collectors together and they talked about stuff like the 200 Himmlers. The guys that I have talked to said it gradually dawned on them that there had to be more than 200 daggers. The reason was that they had see in previous years a lot of them. Too many for there to have been only 200 made.
They also concluded that the daggers were given as presents by Himmler for some time after 1934. This was because they had been found, unissued, with the bag specially marked which indicates a stock item.
Dave
Dave,
And what about all this SS R�hms without a number?
Best greetings,
Herman
PS: C'est excellent si tu parles le Fran�ais, ce qu'il est assez rare pour un Americain! Tous mes compliments!
Great thread guys! This is just one reason I`ve stayed away from higher end daggers and concentrated on army swords.
For what it would cost to fake a Lionhead,it just aint worth it, although the Chinese are getting somewhat close and THAT`S VERY SCARY!!!!
A great condition Army or Luft is just as pleasing to me as a Rad officer or Teno.
See you`all at the MAX!!
I would say that about one in three of the Rohm daggers I have seen had the serial numbers on the crossguards.
If my information is correct, Rohm signed an order for the dedicated daggers 3 February 1934 for men who had been in the SA & SS since 31 December 1931. On 20 February 1934 he signed an additional order for daggers for transferees from the HJ to the SA/SS.
Himmler signed an order on 12 April 1934 stipulating that all SS men to get the dagger must have a certificate or Urkunde. That same order said serial numbers must be added to the daggers on the reverse lower crossguard.
That was mid-April and the daggers cannot have yet been issued. Remember that Solingen was producing normal SA/SS daggers for huge numbers of people. As the Urkunde were filled out for each man and the daggers were issued, it would have dragged on in time. Probably through April, May, June and even (?)later. Rohm was killed at the start of July and on 4 July 1943, SS men were ordered to have the inscription ground off. Most were ground.
A lot happened in a short time. Did a fully ground dagger count as a Rohm and still need a serial number ?? Besides, Rohm was dead, the SA was gutted of political power. Obviously the serial number order was not enforced for long.
Dave
I was in France 1949-53 (6 to 10 years old) and attended the Ecole Tuck-Stell in Rueil - Malmaison. I also lived in Paris 1978-81 and Geneva 1981-84.
Awhile back the Himmler dagger was the only carbon copy dagger ie they where identical to another Himmler,but now I see where they can have a different type of trademark.How did that get overlooked ?
These are the daggers that I have found to be easier to reproduce and somewhat harder to distinquish, not impossible just harder. Railway leaders, Government officials, Diplomatic dagger, teno leaders, Water customs, Customs officials and Hitler Youth leaders dagger. Forestry and Hunting Cutlasses and Shooting association are also encountered. Many post war daggers are often played with. I have only seen a handful of Fireaxes that were authentic period Third Reich produced. The same companies made the axes many years after the war. I even recall seeing what I believed to be a post war axe offerred by a reputable member.cheers, Ryan
I agree with Ron--you guys are pushing the panic button. It's getting harder- but when it comes to a "standard" dagger -there are NO perfect fakes. There are always a number of red flags. I have never seen any fake standard daggers that I even considered to be close to perfect. If you don't know what the red flags are-you are in big trouble and all of them are not listed in the books. But-if you get out there and make contacts you will find out what they are. If you think you are going to do that in a couple of years-you are 100% WRONG. There are NO perfect fake Himmlers-not yet anyway. 200 was the initial number awarded after the night of the long knives. Himmlers with both TM's have been around forever. They used to be $125.00-not worth a quality faking-even then --and even then you could not find the proper daggers to use. What you new guys need to do is to find a really experienced collector to help you learn.If you are really serious this is what you must do. All experienced collectors have volumes of unpublished information that most will share with someone who is really interested in learning--but not with the novice two year know it all. Try to make those contacts when you go to shows instead of trying to be the champion beer drinker. Ask questions instead of forming and voiceing too many opinions. You can't get it all from books--and MANY books are out of date and contain mistakes that have been reprinted time and time again.
Try this-as I have recommended--and you will be surprised what you can learn in a short time.
Houston is right on the money. Go to the shows and see who is talking with who. Who knows which of the big time dealers is an expert in which dagger and which field. You can't be a master in every line in the TR collectibles, so find out who the big time dealers and collectors go to for information and become their best friend. Some of them won't share information with anyone until they know them for a long time. Its just part of the game.
I noticed that someone is mentioning HJ Leader's Daggers as one of the main ones to be reproduced. Once you have examined several known originals, the HJ Leader is one of the ones you can spot a fake one of a mile away. There are only a couple of original manufacturers and the variations are rather limited, so its easy to learn all you need to know about this dagger in a couple of sessions.
2nd Rails are another one that can be mastered in a short time IF you have enough originals to compare and handle. Once you have seen a few, it is an easy one to spot, but you need to look at a lot of them to get "the feel".
Yes, some dealers will sell a fake one now and then, but I wonder if they know or are just in it for the money.
As far as Himmler's go, I have found MORE THAN A HANDFUL DIRECTLY FROM THE VETERAN. One sold at an estate auction in Burlington, Iowa, this past weekend and drew quite a crowd and went for $6500.00, a buy. I had to miss the auction due to my mother's hospitalization, but one of the Iowa boys got a real deal.
I personaly believe that there were 9,900 issued to replace the Rohm SS Dagger and save face for Himmler. Houston is correct about the first 200 going to SS participants in the Rohm putsch, but later Himmler gave them out to the SS men who had joined before March of 1933 just as the SA men who received the Rohm inscription dagger.
I have developed this theory by doing research on the SS Rohms that were numbered and when the men appeared on the SS membership list and the fact that there are just too many Himmler's in veterans hands to have been limited to 200.
Dr. Distlehorst interviewed an SS Col. in the 1970s in Germany who told him that this was the case. Another reason that most of the Himmler's are mint is that the men already had an SS dagger from Rohm to wear, so the Himmler dagger was put back.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
Wow, now there are already 10000 SS Himmlers!
Should not the price drastically drop in that case?
But let's assume for a while that there are "10000 real Himmlers!", still I do not understand why they are for sale all of the time... many dealers have one in their offer at the moment! If I want to, I can easily buy 5 pieces today!
But... I collect SA's and I try to find the rare ones: the 10's, 9's and 8's of Mike McAlvanah's SA rarety list. I am talking about 50 or 100 different, rare producers who all made, let's say a few hundred daggers. So in total more than 10000 rare SA daggers were made! Anyway more than Himmlers...
How much of those rare SA daggers can I buy today? ...NOT A SINGLE DAGGER!I also want to buy
HJ knifes by rare makers, see Russ's list. A wild guess makes me think that 50000 of the millions made must be rare...
YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE RARE KNIFE FOR SALE!Want a Himmler? No problem, any time!SS Full R�hms? Let's assume that 10% (which is a lot) of the SS men kept the dedication intact on their dagger, so only about 990 of these daggers might ever have existed...
You want to buy one today? No problem!Very recently, one of the members bought an SS full R�hm and when he shared it on the forum... Everyone kept silent, not a single congratuation..., the guy just had spent a small fortune... In my opinion, this is very sad and puts the future of the hobby in danger...You want a SA Feldherhalle? Most rare dagger, only 50 were ever made! Maybe the researchers were wrong and it is 500?
You can buy one today, no problem!I remember Adam Kirchen's post in March: "...so many Feldhernhalles were for sale at the SOS!..."
I do appreciate Ron's remark: "Yes, some dealers will sell a fake one now and then...", that is an opening in the discussion...
Best greetings,
Herman
Top level fakes are more present that most collectors would like to believe. I met up with a private dealer from Europe over a year ago who represented a manufacturing jeweller/engraver based in CZ. Their core business was the manufacture of replica medals mostly. He told me that they had begun moving away from medals as collectors had become too astute in detecting their repros, and had concentrated on TR Daggers. 4 SS and 1 SA Full Rohm were shown to me, included was a Himmler. He proudly professed that these were not copies, but rather enhancements to standard daggers, mostly converted from SA daggers, so they were in fact original and merely modified to SS or Rohm, so 100% authentic and legit in his mind. He explained the blades were sometimes completely reground and the entire blade re-etched, other times inscriptions were added to an existing blade. They had the facility to produce new ebony grips where required as well.
Make no mistake, these were excellent and not cheap, between $800-$2500. The only errors I could detect were anomalies in the makers marks of some of them, and the grips on some were just too good and evenly "aged". They claim to be using period equipment and templates for the regrind and re-etch, then depending on the order, items are sold from near mint to well aged, including even Ground Rohm SA and SS. They were also well aware of the reputation of fakes out of Europe and prefer to trade through "brokers" mostly in the US. As a sales tip he suggested finding old folks to pass them off as War Booty or slip them into Estate Sales. He claimed to be selling around 20 a month worldwide, and some of their product is even found on dealer sites. It was this encounter that ruined it for me made me re-evaluate this hobby and I find myself questioning almost every piece I see, from wherever it comes.
Red
RED,
Wow, THAT is SCARY
Thanks for this info, this is the first time I have heard anyone report on first hand knowledge of a high quality TR Dagger reproduction business.
One thing I would REALLY love, would be a copy of their customer list. I wonder who they have sold to these repros to... I wonder if we (collectors) would recognize any of the names...
Red,
That is an honest and very valuable confession you just made!
Thank you very much for sharing this experience with us!
Best regards,
Herman
Herr Mann et all, I guess its time for all the inexperienced and new collectors to leave the hobby! No place for the faint of heart! Just give up and admit that you can't be totally sure of yourself and get out while its safe and you haven't been exposed to the European experts in quest of the Euro!
No other hobby has fakes, you know, like coins, the art world, gun collecting, etc.. So let's start collecing something safe like can tabs or some other interesting venue. Surely there are shows and the interest is just as great as it is in militaria? On to new interests!!
I know they can't fool me in those areas, I'm just too good at spotting them fake can tabs since I went to school on them and can spot the fakes by the angle of the pull! I'll tell the rest of the collectors so they don't have to worry about fakes in this hobby!
This makes about as much sense as the rest of this thread.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
Come on Ron, you know better than that... this thread is becomming more and more interesting...AND REALISTIC!
You don't need decades in this hobby to understand how it works, all you need is common sense.
Can you explain why I cannot buy a single rare SA or HJ, but tons of super rare pieces at high prices? Can you challenge the reason behind the above numbers I presented?
Of course it happens everywhere as you stated above, so we should just shut up and keep on spending our money on it? I know that some would prefer that...
Talking about "can tabs", this brings me to "Tags and bags" for daggers of course: every serious collector owns one now: a "tagged" or a "bagged" or even both dagger! A simple paper bag or tag doubles the price of the dagger, just like that! Easy to fabricate (there is plenty of period paper in supply) and costing... nothing!
If you don't have one yet, don't worry, they will "find" one for you, "a unique, lifetime opportunity to purchase such a rarity"... Does that sounds familiar to some of us?
Don't worry about me, I love this hobby too much, I will never leave! And I now exactly what and why I collect it!
But it sometimes breaks my hart when I see how honest collectors "invest" their hard earned dollars in those "super rare pieces" that you can buy everywhere!
Best greetings,
Herman
Hermannnn, I DO NOT own a tag and bag dagger. All of these that I have bought DIRECTLY FROM VETERANS were RZM and I don't like or collect RZM late war pieces, so I have sold them. If you are into that, fine, but not for me.
Next, I have ran into veterans with a lot of these leftovers. One veteran in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, had 15 RZM Schlottehofer SAs in mint, unissued condition with tags, so don't tell me that they are rare or made up. I have bought them and have had them, but who cares, not me.
He got them directly out of a store in Germany and his is not the only story of this type of dagger find by a veteran. Maybe you haven't had the direct buy experience??
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
What do I care ? I am never going to pay $15,000,00 for a knife, period.
As far as common daggers: SAs and HJs are concerned. I don't have time to list them. I have around 50 SAs forsale right now and around 10 HJs. I intend to take them to the MAX. It is not cost effective for me to list these common items when I can use the same time and space to list Rohms, Himmlers and engraved Lufts with a far better return. I am too busy with Tom buying items. We made four great hits in the last month (you saw some of the SS items on this site), so why waste my time with the common items when I can move it easily at the show??
So, for dealers selling and listing, the rarer items and the higher dollars is what attracts the attention and people will contact you and ask about the more common items or specific manufacturers. Its just a matter of time and demand.
Now SAs and HJs are not hard to sell. Supply is good and demand is high, but you have to go and find it. It doesn't come to you.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
Ron, we are not targeting you in person here with all our questions and remarks about high-end fakes. Actually, I find it very "sportive" and courageous of you that you dare to discuss this topic on the forum with us. And I would like to hear some mature comments (not just making fun about or denying it) from the other "GDC connected" dealers who sell more very expensive "super rare items"... but I am afraid we won't hear from them at all...
Just want to add this about the "bags and tags story": in 1942 the Germans stopped producing dress daggers, because of problems with supply and priority of raw materials, we all know that as a fact. But then 3 years later, 1945 end of the war, the warehouses were still loaded with bagged and tagged daggers that got liberated by de GI's? When I look at the today market, I get the impression that the �liberating� of warehouses is taking place at this very moment�
The testimonial of Redbaron also shows us that when a 70 year old veteran shows up with a Himmler in a bag, it does not necessary means that he got nor the dagger, nor the bag, 50 years ago in Germany... It is possible that we are dealing with very assertive, 70-years young ex-soldier.
Best greetings,
Herman
Ron, with respect, its not at all about being inexperienced or wishing to throw in the towel on collecting because there happens to be obstacles. Even the most seasoned collectors make misjudgements and get caught with repros from time to time. The issue at hand is are the fakers getting better, yes they are... should the newbies give up... no. Also, seldom do new collectors jump straight into a SS, let alone a Rohm or Himmler.
The value of a forum like this goes even beyond textbooks and into guidance and advice from experienced collectors, and those that share their own insights from pieces they own or have handled themselves. The TR helmet and medal guys are ahead of us I think, as they have been plagued by sophisticated reproductions and aged enhancements for longer, and by highly proficient fraudsters. They draw on each others observations and expertise to fill the gap and permanently expose some of the fakes, and bring to the fore the new ones as they are discovered. Yes this happens here, but our mutual learnings will become more valuable in the long run...
Fakes will get better still, and while the ones I have seen were not fakes, rather extreme "enhancements" they are close to indistinguishable as they are real, tang markings, period nuances and all.. I have observed some of the errors the fakers make and they are minor, often ignored as etch anomalies, these are not in the league of the Spanish copies, Reddick or even the famed Attwood pieces.
With so many top-end fakes entering this hobby, its enough to concern me and put a little more emphasis on the experience, reputation and ethics of any seller I buy from today for the "exotic" stuff. I for one buy into Herr Mann's observations, it is interesting just how many fine Rohms and Himmlers are about these days, I wish there were so many about when I started collecting...
JMHO, Red
200 Himmlers????
With over 5000 members on GDC....would those who own Himmlers...identify themselves.....Out of 5000 we should have quite a FEW.....MAYBE OVER 200??????.........
I would just add this--You can buy just about ANY rare SA or HJ knife--It's just a matter of how much you want to pay. Just advertise for one offering a significant premium price. They probably will appear quite rapidly depending on THE PRICE. Oh--and also grinding down an SA to change it to an SS Himmler??? HMM --I think the blade might just be a little tooooo thin to pass inspection by most.
You are completely right, Houston! That is exactly what I mean!
You have to PULL to get to the rarer HJ and SA's: by offering a higher price than usual. You know, with this trick, you can buy almost everything is this world...
The Himmlers, the full R�hms and all the other "super rare stuff" is pushed towards the collectors, from all the possible directions... For this stuff you don't need to offer a higher price than usual, you can even negociate and get a "bargain"... If those items were really rare, collectors would have to use the always working "trick" of offering more extra cash...but that is not necessary to get those "super rare daggers", as I said
you can buy them all in one day!OK, you want an example of this? At the SOS, this year 2006, a Feldhernhalle was offered at 49k US$... serious money, but don't forget, 1 out of 50 ever made all the books tell us so far
! Do you know for how much I could have bought it at the third day of the show? 35k $, that is -14k or 30% off! No touch negotiation was needed, you just had to ask "What is your best price on this dagger?" Like all the other Feldhernhalle daggers on the show, the piece was not sold of course... Doesn't that says it all?
To me it does!
Try to get that kind of reduction (30% off) on a simple, not even rare but 100% authentic HJ or SA... you will have a touch discussion with the almost desperate dealer/seller...
Best greetings,
Herman
Hi I agree with Ron that the daggers that I mentioned can be distinquished from the fakes with some experience, hands on exposure and research. I mention them only because in my 24 years of collecting daggers they were the most prolific reproductions that I encountered, other than the standard army daggers. Once you recognized the swirl pattern in the fake Heer scabbards you were well on your way. Now German reproduction medals, that is a science. I defy anyone to cast aside these fakes so easily. I have seen first hand many a top notch collector and dealer fooled by KCs, SS long service and German Crosses. Some of the very high end fakes are even made with precise dimensions. Not impossible to detect a fake but perhaps more difficult than daggers in some areas.When I need to study dimensions to a micro mm and study precise composition the hobby just doesn't feel as fun somehow. cheers, Ryan
Lou,
That is an excellent idea!
And if all the members with Himmler's and full R�hm SS's would (pretend to) offer these daggers for sale, the prices would drop significantly, and the fakers would probably stop producing copies of them... Problem solved!
Some more questions for the members with guts
:
As this community seems to have agreed on a number of real Himmlers in the thousands... up to 9900 with the "PAY FOR 1, GET 2 !" theory of Ron (a free Himmler for every SS man who paid for or got a R�hm in 1934), are (as Zorro mentioned) the current prices for Himmlers not too high?
What if you take into account that there are at least 10X more Himmlers than full R�hm SS's?
Is the number of 200 Himmlers in all of the "old and mistaken" reference guides going to be corrected?
What is Wittmann's SS book (I do not have a copy) saying about production numbers of these 2 SS dedication daggers?
I hope to get some educative answers here.
Best greetings,
Herman
Herman,
There are no educated or real answers on the Himmler dedication daggers. Even the original 200 number is not substantiated by proof. Where it came from .... nobody is certain.
I would not know how many are accounted for today in collections. 86? .. 134? .. 212? .. ?
I do know that long term collectors and dealers feel that the 200 is low because they have seen enough over the years to suggest that more were made , and because some unissued examples were found at the end of the war.
How many were made, if any ? Your estimate is as good good as anyone else's. The "community" has not agreed on any number
Dave
PS you really should buy that SS book of Wittmann's
As to how good the fakes are getting, can anyone post a pic from a dealer's website & say that it is good in his opinion? Or not? Or would one actually have to have the Rohm or Himmler dagger in hand to tell whether it was good or not? How good are the fakes really?
Ok, I am going to chime in now.
I have been in toolmaking & automotive MFG for the past 14 years as a toolmaker and now a tooling engineer. I can 100% say with out a doubt if I had the funds I could manufacture ANY TR dagger to the EXACT specks and would fool any seasoned collector. Case and point, ever look at a cars steering wheel up close? If you have ever seen the inside of one it would blow you mind away! I managed the 2007 Honda Acura steering wheel tooling program. The tooling package to build the die cast hubcore, over molding, plastic injecting tools was around $400,000.00 not counting the assembly equipment, etc. Very complicated and the details are insane! So a simple dagger would not be a problem to reproduce, it would just cost a mint and one could never justify spending the capital to sell daggers. Too small of a market.
With current technology, scanners to scan part sizes, CNC machining, CMM measuring equipment, acid etching shops,
Tooling cost est:
Tang nut CNC machining $10.00 each
CNC program development $300.00
1 upper cross guard Pattern $1200.00
Foundry cost per 1000 15.00 each
1 lower cross guard* $1500.00
Foundry cost per 1000 18.00 each
1 rune button stamping die $7500 Enamel work?
1 eagle stamping die $12000
1 wood grip* CNC machining $100 each
CNC program development and tooling $7000
1 blade drop forging cost? Blanking die $18000
CNC wet grinder per 1000 $25.00 each blade
1 master acid template (development) $3000
Acid etching est per 1000 $100 each.
1 scabbard shell - 2 parts* Progressive die $28000
1 upper fitting - 2 parts* progressive die $22000
1 lower fitting - 2 parts progressive die $18000
1 brazing machine $30000
1 carrying assembly - 2 parts purchased item
1 throatpiece assembly - 6 parts* stamping dies $40000
2 upper screws purchased item $5-$8 each depending on volume
2 lower screws purchased item $5-$8 each depending on volume
Forgot lead weight die casting tooling $23000
Tooling cost $211,200.00
Not to mention the QC check fixtures, drill jigs, labor, plating cost!
So you can clearly see it could be done, but only Bill Gates could afford it!
I could just develop some SS blades w/ Himmler inscriptions that could fool most people but I would have to sell around 1000 to brake even!
But I thought you take a real one & just put the fake inscription on it. So you don't have to reproduce thw whole thing. Bill Gates or not, apparently someone is doing it.
Yes you could, but it would not be easy or cheap. To get it right you would have to buy an orignal, scan the ecthing make a master pattern, test the pattern, burn time, make adjustments, buy a real SS dagger grind the blade and burn the new dedication etch. I would bet my entire collection that there are more fakes out than the originals! Prove me worng!
Relax boys! They have been trying for years to get it right and it just doesn't happen. NONE of the original tooling, polishing techniques and steel is available to the fakers to make it happen. They just can't make them the way they used to do it. So relax and enjoy looking at enough originals so that when you are ready to buy and have a chance at an original, you will be able to jump on it and sleep with it at night.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Houston Coates:
I agree with Ron--you guys are pushing the panic button. It's getting harder- but when it comes to a "standard" dagger -there are NO perfect fakes. There are always a number of red flags. I have never seen any fake standard daggers that I even considered to be close to perfect. If you don't know what the red flags are-you are in big trouble and all of them are not listed in the books.
---------------------------------------------
I can only agree with Ron, Dave and Houston on this one.
I have never seen a "perfect" faked dagger, unless you don't know what to look for.
I'm not an expert by any means but did specialise into a few areas, mainly in the Chained NSKK and SA Rohm. I have seen hundreds of Chained NSKK and SA Rohms at the Max and the SOS shows and I'm yet to see a perfect fake.
The simple truth is that THEY DO NOT EXIST.
New collectors shouldn't be scared away by the comments made in this thread. I don't think that it is beneficial to the collecting community as a whole.
Of course the faked daggers are getting better but they are still light years from any originals.
Here,s a simple question : " Can anyone out there show me a perfect faked SS EM ? "
Trust me, you are not going to get any replies on this one simply 'cause they do not exist.
The things that's get people all mixed up is when they are using original parts with post-war components. This is where it get's a bit more difficult but when you know your stuff.............NO WAY !
In conclusion, don't be afraid to buy any daggers. Just learn and know your stuff and you won't get burned.
Now, where's that picture of that perfect post-war SS dagger ?
Personally, I think that the biggest threat in our hobby are the "parts daggers", there are many around and many are impossible to spot but at least, all parts are original.
.
Looks like the day of the slabbed dagger may be coming.
at the military odyssey show last weekend a belgium dealer had rohm and himmler ss daggers which were all but perfect fakes ,i say fakes as he insisted they were genuine ,the only thing that gave them away to my eyes were the ss buttons ,the metal being a silver rather then a softer nickel colour, the new condition and the fact that he had several of each. i saw the same daggers on a british dealers table at the war and peace show but he admited that they were copies. once they are aged ?
Nickn
Perhaps the Himmlers and Rohms you saw were from the same source as the fake selection I was offered a while back, also mostly Rohms and Himmlers in any state of aging as required. The ones I saw were mostly minty, but a little too pristine, especially the grips, but superb indeed. Do you recall what they were asking for the Himmlers and Rohms?
Red
I'm yet to see a perfect fake Rohm dagger.
Joe's latest SA Rohm by Eickhorn was perhaps one of the better made fakes that I have seen in years but still, an obvious fake once you get to the minute details.
Trust me, there's no Rohm fakes out there that can fool someone who has done his homework.
It is just impossible for anyone to be able to make such a dagger to perfection.
quote:
I'm yet to see a perfect fake Rohm dagger.
A successful deception is one that is never discovered by those who are deceived. So how would the "perfect fake" ever be known unless the faker announces their accomplishment?
Red,
Give us more details on the blades you saw and the guy who was selling them. Sounds interesting.
Von Rader,
You hit the nail on the head. I've been trying to say the same thing but I did not think of trying to lay out the tooling costs. When you look at a basic SA or SS dagger the 13 parts themselves are not that complex but they were made in huge numbers on expensive dedicated tooling. Then there are the 4 parts of the basic single strap hanger.
Then there is assembly and finishing. In another thread we have seen a bad attempt at re-anodizing a scabbard. I have never seen a 100% correct redo
I have seen attempts at faking all the parts (or substituting new parts like screws) and to an experienced collector, they do not pass the test. The same probably applies to other daggers and I know it applies to any valuable antique. I read about how some jeeps have been modified to resemble early WWII models but they don't fool the experienced guy.
The key word is EXPERIENCED, and Pat got that one right. He has looked at many many NSKK and Rohm daggers and knows his stuff as concerns these.
My advice - If you don't have experience, then make friends with someone who has.
Dave
This must be some kind of joke: what does a steering wheel of a today car has to do with a TR dagger that was made 70 years ago?
The MCSARR list shows us 240 different producers of standard SA daggers. Do you think all those small companies invested the amound of the equivalent of 200k $ some 70 years ago, in order to make some daggers? Yes, they bought parts from other companies? Of course, fakers also use original parts, as we all know.
VonRader,
I have a copy of your very interesting book, showing complex, close to perfect(but postwar) etches on original TR dress bayonets. You, above all the other members here, should know how easy the R�hm and Himmmler dedications can be 100% perfectly reproduced on original blades.
I am not surprised that a few members here are doing their best to "restore trust" and "try to support the business of super rare daggers" that every dealer is currently offering... I know that a lot of money is involved...
The Chinese are currently making damn good copies of K98 combat bayonets, an original K98 is worth about 100$, but they take the effort to make a copy!
Last weekend, I visited a blacksmith, he makes medieval swords the exact way it was done 1000 years ago and he sells them for around 1000 EUR per sword. Don't tell me that there are no artisans in this world, who can make daggers the way it was done 70 years ago for 3000 $ a piece. No this blacksmidt does not make steerings wheels for a today Honda, that is correct...
Best greetings,
Herman
Ron, your statement of "NONE of the original tooling, polishing techniques and steel is available to the fakers to make it happen"
Sorry you are totally wrong! Toolmakers use the exact same techniques today to grind, polish, and steel is steel. Any material can be alloyed poured and forged. I was trained by WW2 Vets that were toolmakers so I know that the techniques have NOT changed only the technology. Polishing is a bit of an art but the methods are the same. I worked in a foundry for 1 year as an engineer.
Herr Mann No joke, my point is that ANYTHING can be reproduced! If I can build a very complicated steering wheel why could I not tool up to reproduce TR daggers? The technology is there folks! This is not space shuttle stuff! Making a bunch of fake TR daggers to every exact detail would cost a major mint, you would loose your arss if you tooled up for it. One thing that is VERY hard to fake is patina and age. The trained eye can spot chemical, or other accelerated aging processes.
Best way to not get burnt is go to shows, build a relationship with veteran collectors (thanks Houston) and ask lots of questions.
I will keep collecting! I'm totally hooked
PS I never wrote a book, only a Undergrad Thesis (it was a novel!)
I still don't think the question is answered. The consensus is - no one can successfully reprodoce the whole Rohm or Himmler dagger from scratch - it is too costly. The difference of opinion is whether one can take an original dagger & add an inscription such that you can't tell a fake from a real one. I don't know one that one can or can't. The fact that the possibility exists is troubling - even if 80% say it can't be done & only 20% say it can. This would not make me give up TR collecting - just Rohm & Himmler daggers.
And like Johnny v. said - "How common can an extremely rare dagger be?"
Herman,
You are perhaps a very experienced collector with much information to share. Why not tell us who you are so we know who we are speaking with ?
Dave
For those believing that a perfect faked SS Himmler and a perfect faked SA Rohm DOES EXIST, please, show us some pics.
I have never, ever seen a 99% perfect SS Himmler or SA Rohm.
Of course, some will say that they are so perfect that none of us will be able to tell the difference. Well, if this is the case, why bother proving that they are fake then since they are identical to any original pre-1945 dagger ?
Words and unproven theories does not mean much to me without any hard fact evidence that a
perfect faked SS Himmler and SA Rohm do indeed exist.
As I've said many times, show us some evidence.
How can we seriously think that such a perfect post-war blade does exist if no one has any proven evidence ?
Please, let's be serious guys for just a minute.
Well said JR
Of course this exact problem of enhanced SA/SS blades emphasises the value of the experience and specialised collectors that post here. Yes, there are supurb fakes and enhancements that WILL fool many less seasoned collectors. As always there are red flags that can be detected, hence the importance of this Forum and the opinions of experienced collectors.
The point for me is that there are good fakes out there, experience and scrutenised opinion is our best defense. I too will never throw in the towel on collecting, however I find myself relying more and more on the folks here...
The enhanced SS/SA fakes I saw are produced in CZ, they are VERY good, but not perfect obviously... their Maker Marks were off which was an obvious alert for me, other collectors might pick up on something else, however many fakes are sold online today, so how much scrutiny can we really apply from pics alone...
Red
Pat,
Every serious dealer KNOWS FOR A FACT! that the R�hm and Himmler inscriptions can be reproduced in a way that you cannot distinguisch them from originals: that is why soo many full R�hms SS/SA's and Himmlers are offered (and sold!) by those same dealers!
You will have to reread the complete topic: the proof that the perfect copies exist lays in the fact that SUPER RARE DAGGERS CAN BE BOUGHT EVERYWHERE, THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE IF THEY WERE INDEED SUPER RARE!
PICTURES ARE NO PROOF HERE!
As you said earlier, you can consider it not being an issue, because there is no difference with the real ones, but in the long term the value of this type of daggers will go dawn significantly... Are you ready to pay 15000 $ or more for a fairly common dagger like the SS Himmler of which 10000 were made (as Ron has learned us)? What if in 10 years from now, 20000 will exist?
An investing tip might be: if you own any of these daggers, sell them as fast as you (still) can, this is just my opinion of course...
Do you really think, that it is that difficult to get the 30 letters of the inscription rightly etched on a period blade? If that is the case, buy a copy of Wayne Techet's book on TR dress bayonets and you will be amased!
Never heard of the sales trick with "the bad and the good copy"? Maybe you have experienced it but did not realise so...
In Europe it is used all of the time: a dealer at a show displays an obvious copy next to a good, aged copy of the same dagger type. He tells potential buyers: "...left is a copy, right is the original dagger...". You would be surprised how many people get tricked that way and think that they are buying originals! The role of the obvious fakes is to get the good/perfect fakes sold!
That exact same trick is used today in order to sell full R�hms and Himmlers...
and this forum is playing an important role in the process: by showing potential buyers the obvious fakes !
The 2 SA full R�hms showed by Brian are an excellent example!
So again, I understand that some of you are getting nervous with this topic...
Best greetings,
Herman
Hermann, I guess you must be right as you seem to know so much about the original Rohm daggers. Maybe you should put on a seminar so that we can all learn from you as to who the dealers are who are selling these perfect fakes and we can avoid them.
It might be that you could put it on under the famous Brussel statue in Belgium and we can all bring protection from the water.
Dave, Ron,
I see that you are getting interested... I will let you know when I intend to write a book...
I hope you don't mind if I will write it in French or in Dutch? (with a translation into German of course!)
Best greetings,
Herman
I think Ron,s taking the Mannekin Pis!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)
Very well Seiler, you know the world!
Gentlemen,
I get the impression that some of us are out of arguments to defend their (difficult
) position here, so the usual "blabla" and "making fun" is starting now... personal attacks will probably start real soon...
But this topic was defenitely worth it!
Nothing to learn about the hobby anymore...
Best greetings,
Herman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herr Mann:
Gentlemen,
I get the impression that some of us are out of arguments to defend their (difficult
) position here, so the usual "blabla" and "making fun" is starting now... personal attacks will probably start real soon...
-------------------------------------------
Herman,
With all due respect, don't you think that it is the other way around ?
What are your arguments ?
As you know, in a court of law you would loose your case as you don't have any susubstantial evidence. No one will get "nasty" here as we are all grown up adults and some cases are not even worth fighting for.
You are allowed to your own opinion and I've got my own.
I don't know if you have been a colector for a long time or if you have much experience in the hobby but I would certainly like to see your expert crudentials, as I have never heard of you before.
Just between you and I in our own language.
" Tu sait Herman, je pense personnellement que cela est un peu ridicule de faire de t'elle affirmations sans aucune preuve. Je connais beaucoup de mecs dans le hobby et j'ai beaucoup �tudi� les dagues Rohm et Himmler, et je ne crois pas du tout que cela soit possible de faire une dague parfaite. Les dagues Rohm et Himmler ne sont pas si rare non plus et ce ne sont seulement que les delears qui font croire qu'elle sont rare. Juste pour faire augment� leurs valeurs. "
Salutation !
Pat
Pat,
We are not in a court room here, we are just collectors of TR daggers and other (preferably period) stuff, sharing experiences and trying to help each other via this forum, with our purchases for the hobby. Nothing must be proved here, I do not attack or judge specifically anyone, nor the collectables that he or she collects. Creating "reasonable doubt" will do in this case.
The investors in TR items should less be concerned with this topic, as they will probably not put their money (for the longer term) in risky items like full R�hms and Himmlers.
The dealers are in it for their living, so it is normal that "they look at it in a different way" than the collectors, but I think that mature discussions like this one, must be possible on a truly "independent" forum. If it is not in favour of certain members' businesses, then it is understandable that they try to defend their selves with any (sometimes poor) arguments that they can think of or even that they try make the discussion stop as quickly as possible...
But hey, we live in a free world, so I can express my funded opinions and... honestly I like to combat possible frauds...
Please stop asking "For how long are you collecting?" As I said previously: I do follow the dagger market very intensively for a couple of years now, I do know personally several senior collectors (who do not care to express their opinions on forums like this) and having a degree of "Ing�nieur commercial Solvay" (call it a Master in Economics and Sciences if you want), I do know something about economics, businesses, sales and production processes. I also know for many years what a "gorget" is...
One more point that I want to add to this discussion: the early reference books that we all know about often indicated production figures of daggers, rarety scales of the different types,... etc. The new ones (sometimes of the same authors) seem to concentrate more on displaying desirable, exotic (but sometimes questionable) items so that they can be sold for more money "because they are displayed in a major reference", I know that the same thing happens with art, antique furniture, ...etc. But I think that it is a bad evolution for the hobby... So it would be interesting if the real specialist among us would start to write reference books that again contain "facts & figures" based on serious historical research. Personally I think that, for example the MCSARR reference was a super initiative!
But off course, collectors that know all the numbers will start to ask questions before they spend their money... so back to the square one of this topic...
Best greetings,
Herman
PS: Pat, ton fran�ais est excellent, toutes mes f�licitations!
I recently found this Himmler on a German dealer's website. NATURALLY original
The Himmler only has one obvious fault. If it wasn�t for the dot over the �i� in Himmler it definitely COULD fool a lot of people - it�s p r e t t y good !!!
SOMEDAY this dagger will fool SOMEBODY
I'd like to mention that this thread symbolizes why I ONLY have a few common daggers and why I ONLY buy my daggers by private individuals in Germany - or people I trust (or both
).
The philosophy is that the daggers were made in Germany, most of the genuine ones are still to be found there and the normal daggers don't get faked
Last remark is regarding the NPEA daggers - every collector's nightmare
IF they made such "good" copies in the 60'ties - then PLEASE think about what they can do today !!!FOOD FOR THOUGHT, GENTLEMEN Jesper
Jesper,That Himmler dagger is awful I could tell it was a fake the instant I looked at it.It may be because you prompted me.I think most good daggers are in the USA because of the American GI.After the war the Germans were not allowed to have any weapons at all and did not want to be associated with the nazis in any way.IMO
Fakers are getting better and better, but will never completely do a perfect job and simply because it cannot be done.
Simple as that !
Here's what a very good friend of mine ( and expert ) once told me about those faked daggers.
His quote : "One has to ask himself, what would it take to replicate technology and skill that was used 65 years ago when we live in an age where we can fly a plane at 2000 mph, put a man into space and send an email across the globe in just seconds ? For some reason, any and all of the items made during the era of Nazi Germany can never seem to be reproduced in the exact fashion that they were made many years ago. With a computer, it wouldn't seem to be that difficult to make an exact SS helmet decal today, that perfectly matched those of 1935-1944...............but it is. The same for say a war badge or Honor ring. There is just something about the
old way that items were manufactured that we can never go back and do over again. Why is that ? I guess to do so, that the task would have to be accomplished in the same fashion with out modern technology, computers and electronics in order to achieve the same product that was easily made by crafman in Solingen 65 years ago and sold for $ 2.50."
This has to be the best explanation that I have ever heard about faked items from the TR era.
Just plain and simple logic !
This logic could also be applied to many things that were done many years or even centuries ago but that cannot be reproduced today.
Ever tried to make a modern Stradivarius violon by any chance ? Or a '65 Stingray corvette ? the list is endless !
You need these
old machines in order to duplicate these old items and our modern technology just can't do it.
They cannot be
perfectly reproduced
This is just logic - if it was a "perfect fake' then it is not fake at all but real. The term "perfect fake" is an oxymoron. What we should be talking about are fakes that fool most of the people who look at them & about which even "experts" disagree.I certainly respect expert opinion here, but when disagreements arise here among experts {like on the recent SA Rohm pics) it makes me think twice about Rohms. And again, if as commented here, you need to handle the Rohm because you can't tell from the pictures, why post them? I'm a beginner, I defer to the experts, but when the experts disagree I walk away - at least until I get more evidence to satisy myself, I'm staying away for now from Rohms & Himmlers - not the right decision for everybody - just for me.
Definition of expert.One who has bought more crap than oneself.
Zorro:
This Himmer doesn't fool us, but...
I also showed you the pictures because it's a DEALER who is selling a fake as an original !!!
Pat:
OF CAUSE fakers COULD do a perfect job...
Jesper
I do agree with Jesper, it could be done, there are enough fine craftsmen in the jewelry and custom engraving profession alone to pull it off, just look at the fine medals and badges being produced right now in Eastern Europe, near impossible to differentiate. I have seen some exceptional custom work and engraving also on guns as well.
Are they doing "perfect" daggers now, who knows, we certainly can't agree on it here
Red
As I have said manyyyyyyyyyyy times, please gentlemen, show us a pefect faked dagger, SS helmet, Knight's Cross, etc, etc !
No disrespect intended but as far as I'm concerned, these are just words and we still don't have any single shred of evidence that these perfect fake does exist.
C'mon guys, let's be serious here for a moment and give us some facts, other than that, I'm not convinced. Anyone with some experience will tell you that it ain't possible to reproduce any of these high end items.
It is not for us to prove that these co-called perfect fakes does exist, as I have never seen one, but it is you that has to convinced us that they do exist.
Of course, we always get the usual rhetoric that they are so well made, that they are perfect and hence, no one can actually see that they are fake. C'monnnnnnnnnnn !
Is that what you call running after your own tail.
How come that none of the big names in the hobby, such as Houston, Craig, Gailen, Bill, Witmann, Johnson and the list goes on and on, does not believe in that "perfect faked" theory ?
Funny enought, those that believe in that theory are just normal, plain collectors...............just like me.
I'm sorry but I'll go with what the other experienced collectors have to say.
If it were true, why in the world would I spend my money in order to get those COA from the big names.
Actually, why would I bother buying any daggers at all if I can't even tell if it is fake or not ?
It just doesn't make any sense !
I have been waiting for years just to see a simple faked SA early dagger.
I'm still waiting and would like to see one and it shouldn't be that difficult, as it is the easiest dagger to reproduce.
Guess what ? Nobody has ever seen one yet !
Could this be considered as a "clue" ?
SHOW US THE EVIDENCE !
I think that it would be wise for those that believe in that "perfect fake" conspiracy theory, to show us some facts.
Other than that, it has no value for anyone as nothing can be proven to be true.
You need some meat on the bone in order to prove a theory, not only in the militaria world but in any hobby or science class.
Here's my own simple theory that I have just made.
NO FACTS = NO PROOF = NO VALUE + WASTE OF TIME.
Nobody with a $15.000 R�hm or Himmler think they have a fake. Thus nobody will show you a dagger that is a fake, Pat - NOBODY !!!
Jesper
Jesper, in the last month we were able to spot 3 faked SA full Rohm in the Rohm section on GDC.
They are easy to spot and even easier when you actually hold them in your hands.
The fact that those Himmlers or Rohm that we don't see, does not mean that they are perfect fake, as we always can tell that they are fake.
Anyone that has what he thinks to be an original Himmler or Rohm will gladly show his prize on the web.
It doesn't make any sense that anyone that thinks that he has an original Rohm, wouldn't want to show us his dagger.
Why not ?
Anyone that thinks that he has a perfect faked Himmler will of course be worried about showing his dagger on the web.
But then, if he thinks that his dagger is fake, then it ain't perfect.
Do you see where I'm getting and why it doesn't hold the water ?
Jesper my friend !
PM sent.
Mais ouix, Pat - but the spotted fakies were only spottet before they were bought.
Right ?
So my point is that a collector that HAS bought a fake would be reluctant to show it here.
Right ?
AND my point is that there are MANY people who don't now ANYTHING about daggers - and buy them because they THINK they are original.
Right ?
Bonjour a voux, Monsieur Vialle
Jesper
PS: Let's get ourselves a new thread - a competition - with the best faked daggers
The fact that an inexperienced collector has bought a faked dagger, doesn't mean that it is a perfect fake.
An experienced collector would have been able to tell the difference and this is why I'm saying that the perfect dagger DOESN'T EXIST.
We are seeing hundreds of daggers being shown on the forum and we always can tell if they are real or not.
I will agree that sometimes it is difficult to tell, especially in high end blades, but a hand inspection will reveal the truth.....GUARANTEED !
Pat, I don't know, but the "Classic Fake" Pack Rohm you posted here and at MCF sure looks exceptional to me if it is a fake. The Rohm dedication looks off to me, but the more experienced collectors like Ron, Dave and even Bruce Petrin are not completely convinced, so I am inclined to withold my judgement in favour of the seasoned collectors.
If it is a classic fake as you pointed out, it would be near perfect... As a few guys have already mentioned, an experienced collector can spot a high-end fake, but the amount of true authorities in this field of collecting is actually quite small, so yes, collectors like Ron & Houston etc. will have little trouble, but for many of us its not so simple...
BTW, I have handled a few early Attwood daggers, I don't own any, but the ones I have seen were excellent, also given that they are not true fakes but rather post war mix, I think they fool a lot of folks...
Red
The bottom line is that a perfect faked dagger to "us" is NOT perfect.
To others the faked daggers are perfect.
Jesper
I will agree that they will fool many collectors and myself included.
Concerning that classic fake E.Pack that I have posted, a hand inspection would reveal without any doubts if it is authentic or not.
Like I have said, some are really hard call but we are only seeing them through pics which isn't always the best test.
That said, obvious flaws are always easy to spot and in some cases, you will need a hand inspection but at the end, you will always get the truth.
My thread wasn't against the fact that a faked dagger is getting better but I was merely debating that fact that this so called "perfect fake" theory is wrong, false and detrimental to the hobby, as it will scare away the new collectors.
Jesper , i don't get your logic on this.
So if an unexperienced collector buys a fake.He can't tell an original from a fake, so he thinks he has a perfect dagger...So this dagger is now the "perfect fake" dagger as long as he doesn't show it to someone experienced???
And you say that a collector that has bought a fake would be reluctant to show it here...
Well, how does he know it is a fake then??
Did he know it was a fake when he bought it?
Did he show it to someone that told him it was a fake??And he didn't want a second opinion by someone experienced,so he doesn't post it on a forum to learn about it?
So now this collector has a perfect fake, as long as nobody else sees it??
Sorry , but i don't get this "perfect fake" theory.
The "perfect fake" is only perfect in the unexperienced collectors universe,and not anywhere else.So there is no perfect fake dagger.I've seen that on this forum over the years i have been a member.Daggers that looked good to me,were ripped apart by the dagger "gurus" in less that a week, and i learn something new every time i browse this fabolous forum.Long live GDC
Ulf the realistic
I think we all agree - we are just going around in circles
Jesper
Nope, i'm going in ovals.
Ulf.
Pat,
Proof is not limited to pictures and foto's.
Buy a good book about the "Theory of chances" and/or "Statistics" and read it through, it will prove you for 100% that the current availability of "super rare daggers" is simply impossible, period!
If you want to see pictures of perfect copies, just go to the websites of the people who run this hobby/business. Ron has said it himself earlier in this treat: "...Yes, some dealers will sell a fake one now and then..." If they only sell a fake �now and then�, what do you think they will prefer to sell: ones a fake 300$ HJ knife or ones a 15000$ fake Himmler? The answer is obvious, no?
I guess you are asking for proof again?
Well here it is: the top dealers you named here are selling so called HJ N�rnberg knifes "now and then". Years ago EVERYONE in the hobby agreed that these knifes were complete fakes: all shiny mint, bagged pieces. A decade later the same people who run the hobby are selling them for real TR items (about 1000$ a piece) because now they look perfect with some patina... Of course now the reaction will be again �I have bought some real HJ N�rnberg knifes directly from vets�� OK, we know these magical words that turn all questionable pieces into real TR stuff. And off course, here proof is never asked for�
The biggest problem with this hobby is: the ones who become rich with this business are the same ones who define (dictate!) which stuff is real and which in not! End of story!Everywhere where serious money is involved, hypocorism and fraud are never far away...
Best greetings,
Herman
PS: The reason why the simple SA dagger was not yet perfectly copied is explained at the beginning of this topic: not enough money involved... yet
Talking about fakes - what do you think of this ground R�hm?
Personally I think it's been redone...
Jesper
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From what I see, I tend to agree.
We've already killed that one.
Very well done but still easily recognizable.
Not yet that perfect fake.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/477091573/m/6490038444
Herr Mann,
I do not want to be cynical about it but why do we collect any daggers at all if we cannot prove without any doubts if a dagger is real or fake ?
I see that you like to collect DLV/NSFK's flyer's knifes. Why do we collect if we cannot prove that they are authentic ?
That's a pretty scary question but nonetheless, very important for anyone that believes that perfect fakes are out there !
I for one, would be pretty worried if this would be the case.
How can anyone prove that my daggers are real or yours for that matter if we cannot prove it ?
Do you see where I'm getting !
If this is true, then we are all fools as nobody can prove that our daggers ain't just perfect fakes.
I for one would definitively quite the hobby if this was the case.
Pat,
That is the real challenge of being a collector!
Any collector has to face and manage these "possible copy" risks: art, antique furniture, coins, stamps ...etc. are all copied close to perfection.
The higher the value of a piece and the lower the complexity of its fabrication, the higher its "possible copy" risk. Several years ago, I was invited to an auction of French and Italian antique furniture (18-19 century) at Sotheby's London. I know nothing about these marble tables and gilded-bronze statues, but I was impressed by the beauty of certain objects. When I looked at the exposed pieces, I noticed that certain objects were dated, but other similar ones were not???
When I asked my friend and host (who manages several antique shops in Europe) what this meant, he told me "...the ones without a date are copies for sure, the ones with a date have a fair chance of being originals..." Later, after the auction when we were drinking some wine, he added: "... any furniture that enters my shops becomes real antique thanks to my top reputation, but of course I must keep my greed under control, I cannot sell too much similar pieces, otherwise the prices would simply crash and my reputation could be questioned...". He had just bought several pieces of �antique� with no date mentioned when exposed, but which were displayed in the famous Sotheby�s catalogue, of which a full box stood next to our table� My fried added "This catalogue is priceless, all the items that are displayed in it ones, cannot be questioned anymore..."
Do you see the similarities with our hobby?
Personally I manage this risk by staying away from the "super rare" stuff, specially the ones where adding a simple etch multiplies the pieces value times 5 or even times 10! Collecting the more common or the more complex to produce daggers reduces the "possible copy" risk significantly. I also almost never buy from dealers anymore.
But I agree with you Pat, even with simple DLV-NSFK knifes, there is an important "possible copy" risk... But that adds to the fun of collecting in my opinion!
Best greetings,
Herman
This subject is always interesting and controversial. Most collectors I know are very concerned about fakery. They avoid certain items that are generally believed to have been faithfully reproduced, and try to be a conservative as they can in making purchases, especially of big ticket items. I dont think I have ever met a collector who isnt concerned about fakes. Dealers, on the other hand, almost never publicly express concern about fakes. I do not intend to be critical of the comments of anyone involved in this thread, I respect the opinions of all concerned. However, It is my observation that most dealers rarely admit to being concerned about fakes.
Anything that was made in the Third Reich can be reproduced exactly today. With the exception of certain materials or processes that are illegal or hard to get, such as cyanide used in fire gilding, ANYTHING can be reproduced if the return is high enough. There are LOTS of skilled craftsmen in Eastern Europe and Asia who can make anything and do it very well and do it a lot cheaper than we realize.
Some "facts" that are hard to deny:
Right after WWII the tooling and parts and workmen were all present to continue production of Third Reich items, which were in demand as souvenirs. No doubt, workers in the various factories did a little moonlighting to put food on the table.
Dies and tooling and molds, etc that were made in the 30's and 40's could just as easily be made in the 60's or 70's. To say they could not is just not rational.
There is more than just a little variation in the manufacture of most original Third REich relics. Therfore, it is almost impossible to say with certainty that origianls were all done this way or not done that way. There are some well known exceptions, of course, such as the RZM mark on the obverse of SA blades, which most collectors believe was never done on originals. Most collectors have not pulled enough relics out of footlockers to be able to say "I know this type is good and I know that type of (dagger, medal, etc) is bad based on Vet purchases". I have purchased many third Reich medals directly from vets and went into the attic to retrieve the footlockers and had dealers and collectors tell me "this isnt right or that isnt right.
If we could use a majic magnet to pull all the fakes out of a large militaria show, there would be a lot of long faces, (and very few Knights Crosses). It all boils down to consumer confidence. Do your homework and dont let your desire to obtain a rare item cloud your judgment as to its authenticity . The best way to lean if an item is good or not is to buy it then try to sell it. You will then find out in great detail everything that is wrong with it. Just my opinion, for what its worth .Joe S.
I haven't observed a distinct pattern of reproductions getting any better to the pointg of being virtually indistinguishable. On the contrary, they are actually getting worse. Consider the quality of copies that were made in the 60s and compare those to the the stuff of the 70s and 80s.
Sure, its possible that some indivudual item shows up that can fool many but they are very rare.
Since I'm not a medal collector and use medals mainly to accompany a dagger display, I don't mind good replica medals and badges. And I also don't pay a lot for those, good or bad. Given my inexperience with medals, I wouldn't even consider investing in those.
The bottom line here is that good replicas are a 'good thing' for people like myself.