Hi guys,

could you help me out with this dagger?
chained NSKK by Herder.
Dagger looks ok to me, but the chain can not convince me for the full 100%.
so your comments/thoughts are more then welcome

thx

joe

more pics

pics pics pics

last pics

Hello Joe,

1. Some good closeup pictures of the front of the different chain links would be helpful.

2. Check if the chain is magnetic.

Best regards,

Herman

some extra pics.
hope they are good enough

I don�t like it� Sorry.
The chain links seem to be of a very different age/condition/material from the links themselves.
The scabbard seems odd. The most obvious thing is the mis-placed center ramp.

I would "pass" on this one.
It is IMO, a "part piece" at best.

Good hunting,
Johnny

All the fittings appear to be heavily buffed and polished. Scabbard itself looks to have been crudely buffed down almost to bare metal, and never repainted.
Grip also looks to have been polished.
It would stand to reason that the blade has been as well, can't tell from the pics.
I think the chain is good - Looks to be heavily nicotine stained. Why the links aren't as well I can't say. Perhaps the different metals attract and retain the nicotine better than others. I am not sure if they are supposed to be composed of the same metal. If so, this would obviously be a problem, as Johnny points out.

At this point, I would buy it. Are you Collecting because you will keep it no matter how much it might be worth, now or later? Or is this an investment? I know authenticity matters, but if it is for collecting....only you and a very few people would know.

Joe,

The value of this piece lays in its chain (& scabbard attachings).
From what the pictures show, the chain links seem fine, but you need to find out if the are iron/steel based, so keep a magnet next to each link and check if they are magnetic. This is important!

Best regards,

Herman

It's hard to tell from the photos, but one side of the link holes should be rounded, not square on both sides. The stamped NSKK marking looks correct.

sorry for the late reply but a bit busy .
to grumpy:
i think the holes look like horseshoes, but not so clear on the pics.
to hermann : yes the chain is magnetic I got confirmation by email and pic today .
to skynyrd: I do not think that the blade is polished since there still a lot of crossgrain . But as you said the crossguard and scabbard pieces do look buffed.
also the dark edges (shadows) around scabbard fitting looked funny to me that's why I'm asking more opinions.
The overall fit of the dagger looked a bit odd , but it could be that the center fittings as Johnny said is wrongly placed, and gives the odd overall look.
to djdr : "I know authenticity matters, but if it is for collecting....only you and a very few people would know." i do not completely understand what you are trying to say, but I don't see the point in buying a "non authentique" dagger; IMO too many fake or parts daggers keep circling the forums and I don't wanna be part of it.

So to 2 main questions left :
could the chian colour difference be nicotine (as skynyrd stated) ?
is the offset scabbard fitting an exceptable (production) error, meaning is thare a standard distance an di sit for all chained nskk daggers the same.

The dagger is located a 2 hours drive from my home , the price is a bit below normal but it's a gun collector that selling two daggers that he bought together with a lot of guns, so selling the daggers.
The other dagger is a good RZM SA with no issues IMO.
But I'm not in a hurry or anxious in getting this dagger asap so preffer to keep this discussion running for a while, and will then descide to go have a look myself or not.

some extra pics of the points mentioned above

I had a better look at the last pic i got the one with the magnets attached.
on that pic the colour difference between chain and dagger looks less prominent, or not ?

Hi Joe,

OK, so the chain is an original iron/steel based version by Assmann & Sohne. As there are only 3 chain links in the upper part, it is probably an early 1936 made piece.

The dagger looks also fine to me, but as said most value is in the chain.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,
so (magnetic) iron/steel chains are always original ?
magnetic reproduction chains do NOT exist?

Let's have a closer look at the dagger tang- Are crossguards normal Nickel silver? Rich Herder did not make Early SAs that we know of (unless this is the ultra rare exception.Mike

Joe,

So far I have not seen any, except for one fake chain that had magnetic paint applied on it.
The reason is that iron/steel is not an easy material to work with: high melting point, quite hard, ...etc.

There also exist non magnetic, early full nickle-silver chains, which are slightly thicker than the iron/steel ones. Those are much toucher to find.

Best regards,

Herman

I would listen to Johnny, and to grumpy. But the bottom line is any artifact is what ever you want it to be. Love...is in the eye of the beholder.

I can tell you that's a humped up piece and junk and give convincing proof...but if your already in 'Love' well...say la vie.

Those who spotted what I see are right. this is a humped-up sled.
You see, on none of these chained NSKK's, varients included, would be missing the umlat in the Korpsfuhrung...
In this type of fake they actually raised the 'U' to they to cover up the the lack of the umlat.
Here's what a real one look at. Hope the 'Love' is not so deep that you can't drop her off at the next corner.
or...it's 'Till death do we part'.

-Serge-

Serge,

Don't you think that if the 2 dots on the "U" would be the difference between good and bad, that the fakers would easily solve that by adding the 2 dots instead of making the "U" longer... what would be more difficult in your opinion?
I also heard that story before, but it really does not makes any sense.


Joe,

Problem with the chained NSKK's is that they are hardly covered in depth in any reference books (except for pictures): even the latest work of Ralf Siegert does not tell much about these rare, fine and beautiful daggers.

Easy thing with the chained NSKK's is that in hand you cannot mistake about them if you know what you look for: the fake chains are so easy to spot. Pictures are always more tricky...

Let me tell you what would probably happen to most pieces like the one in this topic: it gets bought by a dealer, who might repaint the scabbard, clean the chain and insert a late (RZM) Eickhorn SA/NSKK dagger...and what do you get... a 4000 US$ dagger!


I add a picture of 2 NSKK chains: on the left an Assmann chain, like the one shown here, on the right a full nickel-silver chain.

Best regards,

Herman

One more pic:

I�m not on my primary computer with its reference (image) files, but to me the chain looks like a well stamped (not cast) set of links. With horseshoe shaped holes on steel with plating that is in a partially failed state, with reddish corrosion coming through in places. Also, with what could be umlauts over the �U� but not in the middle of the letter. But instead at the edges extending into the space above the characters - but not as high as on the nickel silver(?) example shown. FP

I like the discussion , 2 completely oposite opinions
here are the best 2x pics i have of the nskk stamp

A few problems with this one as I see it. Firstly look at the oak leaf clip and compare to other RZM style hangers and you'll see the difference. This chain configuration is supposed to be an "upgrade" type with the 3-5 link setup, but again the oak leaf clip does not match that vintage either with the curving right leaf. Looks more like the repro-style hanger.

The chain loops that join the hanger to the first chain links are wrong, early models have a broad oval shaped, flatish link that is soldered closed, RZM types have a thinner link usually not soldered. This one has round loops that look the same as the other loops that join the chain links.

The centre ramp is also not typical to the upgrade version, they usually have a thin and more flared style ramp, the one on this dagger is more similar to the later style, thicker & flatter ramps seen on Eicks.

The upper and lower scabbard fittings look poorly defined to me with broad rolled edges, something often seen on early repros. Then there's the NSKK stamping that's already been raised which is also a know trait of some of the early copies.

My vote is repro on this one... I would get someone who has experience to give this a hands-on inspection if you want to move on this dagger. At very best it has been fiddled with...

Red

Hi.

I have the Marine version of this dagger. When I took the first batch of photographs using my generic 12 MP camera it did not look good. So taking some good advice from my mate Jon in Devon, I used natural sunlight/daylight with the camera on a small stand and no flash. It worked wonders.

Many photos do not give a true image, especially if you attempt to tweek them!!

Of course you could go the whole hog and buy a photo box as some of the more advanced photographers on this site use.

A nice looking dagger but IMO hands on inspection has to be the way to go.

All the best

Frank

To borrow a phrase �I don�t have a dog in this fight�. And I�m not disagreeing that the dagger has been aggressively cleaned, fooled around with, or however you want to describe something that does not look like it should have back when it was manufactured. With my interest at this point more of an academic one focused on the chains and how they were made. So for that consideration: I�m posting an image that I believe was taken by Bernie Brule for another thread long ago of an Assmann nickel silver cloverleaf and upper links - as contrasted with the one that is the thread starter. (While I keep looking for some other images that I remember that may have gotten scattered about or mixed in with my �H�hnlein� dagger grouping.)

PS: In my humble opinion, if the cloverleaf/links on the right are modern fakes then the collectors of these are in for some real trouble. As the definition/detail of the stamping IMO is better than the Assmann on the left, which itself is better than the cast fakes in silver, nickel silver, or steel. FP

Gentleman,

Here is another one with the exact same chain by Assmann, except for the 4 top links and the heavy cleaning:

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/30059.htm


Fred,

I agree that the casted chains are the fake ones: which makes them so easy to spot.
But I would be very surprised if any casted iron/steel version exist. The melting point is about 1500 �C and this metal does not have the characteristics to give a good casting result: it always needs extra treatment.

Anyone has a picture of a fake iron/steel based chain? Let's see!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

As requested, here is what I believe to be a cast steel NSKK chain link with what looks like rust where there are breaks in the plating.

PS: Like its "H" dagger cousins, I didn�t say that it was a good fake.

Best Regards,

Fred

Hello Fred,

Thank you for posting the picture, very interesting!
But based on the apperance of the texture of the surfaces of these links, I am pretty sure that that is an alloy cast and not iron/steel.

Best regards,

Herman

Hello Herman,

I�ve had that image and some others for a while now, and I think that the cast link shown was done �old school�. So the next time I visit with my brother who does commercial precision investment casting I will have to spend some more time with him to discuss the feasibility of replicating something like the chain links in steel versus some other metals. That said, I do remember some of what he showed me the last time we visited and I think there are probably even better tools/materials available now. I could also look at some of my more modern guns that have investment cast steel alloy parts (in the non-machined areas) to get a better sense of what could be done in terms of dimensions/tolerances when they were made in comparison to traditional methods.

But in the interim, here is a current article that may shed some light on the techniques/tools that fakers could use now - that were not as available years ago when many of the fakes (like the �H� daggers for example) were made.

Best Regards,

Fred

Investment Casting

I dare to say the chain is a repro. The dagger makes bad impression as well (to me a parts dagger with blade made recently to be a "Herder"), but of course the value lays in its chain.
There are few significant differences between an original Assmann chain and the one being discussed. Besides of what the other guys already said about the whole chain assembly, not only "Umlaut" thing is the problem of NSKK stamp, but the shape of almost each single letter.

On a personal level I think that having these kinds of discussions is time well spent because we can hear the different arguments, and see what is presented to back up the opinions. It�s also my own opinion that if this much �calling into question� had been done �back in the day� - it would have saved guys a LOT of money that was wasted on all of those �humped up� �H�hnlein� named/chained NSKK daggers.

But as I said earlier, �I don�t have a dog in this fight�. And I�m not arguing the merits, or lack of, for the dagger in question. With my interest being more of an academic one that is focused on the chains and how they were made. So with that in mind, for consideration here is what I believe to be the same markings on a nickel silver set of links. More evidence of fakery or ............?? Fred

Did anyone note Mike McAlvanah's comment on the second page ?

R.A. Herder is not an accepted maker of SA/NSKK daggers.

Dave

Nieither s kbler , but Wittmann is selling a field upgrade Kobler as real. (and it has the same (not correct ir uncommen) end rings that are mentioned in one of th posts above.
And Snyder has a chained herder for sale as well .

The Wittman offering is by Kober who is a recognised maker of SAs

Of Sa's but also of chained nskk?

Any early dagger can be found matched with "field upgrade" scabbard, that's what the field upgrade is about - NSKK man got his early dagger (I guess you know they wore the same daggers as the SA) and later added chain to his scabbard. It was cheaper, easier or whatever than buying brand new chained dagger.

I've asked 3 times if you could send me pics of the dagger only- could I please get a response? Mike

If you are not interested, that's fine. I only thought most people would want to know if their dagger was a reproduction. Mike

Mike, i must have missed yor question.
I'm not at home, for two weeks and the pics are on my computer at home.
and this is not my dagger as said it is for sale.
And ,es I would like to get as much info as possible, if it's not for this dagger then it might be usefull for a next one.

Well then that settles it for me.

I have to correct my previous statement:

There do exist magnetic (iron based) fake chaines: I had the opportunity to check one out, yesterday at the Ciney fair. The marks were poorly applied. Asking price was 300 EUR (= 400 US$).

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Thank you for the update! In the future if it's not too much trouble. And you have the opportunity, I would be interested in seeing the quality of this iron based fake and its markings.

Thanks, Fred