I have several rather average examples of 1936 chained SS, and have on many occasions seen examples better than mine both on this forum and elsewhere, but I have never seen an example that is 100% stone mint! Do they exist in this condition? I have for example, seen many chained NSKK daggers in superb mint condition but never chained SS, why is this?

Howard 20 years ago the first chained SS I bought was what I would call mint. I was a novice at the time and never did really like it because it had that RZM lack of quality. I wanted that early nickle fit and finish. This is a picture of the picture of it.They are out there.

No such thing as 100% "stone mint" in my opinion. Here is my type II chained. Some may be in better condition but they are far and few between. I did have a beauty near mint type I but it now resides in an advanced collection in Europe.

Thankyou for the reply's. But why are their so many mint NSKK chained and no pictured examples of mint SS chained daggers? It dosen't seem to make sense that this should be the case!....Many thanks.

Howard There was never any early nickel NSKK so that eliminates thoses.They are rarer than a chained SS and were made latter on and into the war. They were probably the daggers sitting on the shelves of factorys when the vets picked them up.

Well, it could be that MANY of the mint NSKK Chained Daggers that you are looking at are, indeed, FAKES.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

One point about minty NSKK chained. Imagine what could have happened to all those Eickhorns 7/66 1941 dated daggers after they were issued to NSKK men in '41. The owners more than likely went to war and the daggers went to the closets to wait for their owners that often never came back. The same goes for all those minty RZM SA's. Are they also fakes?

Any piece will have some degree of imperfection and wear. I have never seen an absolute "mint" '36 SS none the less a "mint" chained NSKK. As discussed many times before, the term "Mint" condition can vary a great deal from person to person.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Julian-Harvey:
I have several rather average examples of 1936 chained SS, and have on many occasions seen examples better than mine both on this forum and elsewhere, but I have never seen an example that is 100% stone mint! Do they exist in this condition? I have for example, seen many chained NSKK daggers in superb mint condition but never chained SS, why is this?

Here is one of mine.
with provience from Norway.

The M 36 is NM in my eyes.

That imbalance has not alway been the case. A few years ago, I remember more M36 SS daggers than NSKK as far as what was offered for sale.

I am not sure why this is now reversed, but some of it might have to with the SS collectors sitting on their stuff as real SS daggers of any vintage are being salted away.

NSKK daggers are great too, but do not have the same appreciation potential.

Ron - please elaborate on the fakes you mentioned

Dave

Lh600 Even mint coins have flaws now Proof is another class.That M36 looks like my old one. Did you buy it in the USA ?. How long have you had it ?

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Lh600 That M36 looks like my old one. Did you buy it in the USA ?. How long have you had it ?

Hi Zorro
This M 36 came from Norway. And im in Norway too
Have been into a Norwegian collection always.
Im the 3rd owner after the SS officer

The dagger is a beauty ,& the blade is Stone mint. The scabbard is perfekt too.

regards Lh 600

here is more pics of the same dagger closer image.

Back in the early days of this hobby, when Atwood was importing daggers into the US from Germany that were of dubious origin, the chained NSKK was a favorite of the reproduction models. A much more scarce dagger than the M36SS, MANY of the chained NSKKs were repros or parts pieces in the beginning.
These made their way into collections and all were near mint/mint conditioned RZM style and this is why this particular model dagger was a problem with the collectors over the years.
This occurred during the mid1960s and has never been forgotten by the old men in this hobby.
It caused many problems and still today makes any chained NSKK to be carefully inspected before the sale.
I have found 10 M36 SS Daggers to every 1 Chained NSKK from the veterans. This causes me to believe that the value of an original chained NSKK is depressed from what it should be in the market place today.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

quote:

Atwood

There is that name again! This guy was a real con-man! I too agree with Ron about the value of NSKK chained daggers, often due to the many fakes around it has scared off many collectors. I have held many fake examples of these and some are very convincing, makes it even harder when a real blade is installed! The fakes have funky chains and connectors links.

Talking about mint M36 daggers,yes they are out there Im sure there are many! This was in my collection until a few years ago and now resides in a warm climate in the USA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Hooper,
Such a beauty would've been better off in a very cold climate somewhere in northern Canada.

Gentlemen,I think when I started this thread I should have simply asked.....Patrice please can you show us all your mint condition chained SS!!!....Patrice, given your preference for mint (and wonderfull!) items. What is your view on all of this, do you own a "36" that rates to your usual high (mint) standard? Or do you have your beedy eye on one owned by someone you know, perhaps a member of this forum?..Do tell?..Many thanks.

A mint nickel M36 now that is a rare item

Howard,

Thank you for your kind words and appreciation.
To be very honest with you, trully mint SS Chained are extremelly rare and so much so, that have never seen one.
None of mine would rate mint but I've got one that would probably rate M-.
Will get some pics in a minute.

Pat

Mine is not mint, but somewhat clean with redeeming features.

This is the earliest configuration, being all nickel silver produced in 1936 for a short period of time.
This came out from Gailen's private collection many years ago.
The blade and grip are mint.
The scabbard's paint rates about 99% and the chain is perfect.
I only thing that keeps this dagger from perfect, is that the blackening on the chain is a bit light.
Nonetheless, this is the only one that I could find in such a condition and I will have to be happy with it.

Thanks for looking !

2

3

Last

A true work of art Pat and thanks for sharing it!

Thanks for showing us that beauty Pat. I think then, given your enthusiasm and dedication in the pursuit of perfection, one can assume that your example is probably about as good as they get!..Unless that is, somebody is reading this whilst occasionaly glancing at their own even better nickle siver example, perhaps still retaining it's original tag maybe????...Many thanks.

Bloody ell Pat, give over, but then again that's Pat standard, wouldn't expect anything less.

Stephen, did you ever or do you regret selling that beauty? Once they're gone they're gone and difficult to replace, how many times do you question your own judgement later on .

Nolan

[ QUOTE]Originally posted by HOOPER 2:
Talking about mint M36 daggers,yes they are out there Im sure there are many! This was in my collection until a few years ago and now resides in a warm climate in the USA,,,,,,,,,,,,,, [/QUOTE]

Just to add, I remember agonising over that one; and what Stephen asked for it just maybe 2/4 years ago .

Nolan

Thank you gentlemen !

I would think that LH600 has quite a fantastic M36 that would rate very near the minty condition.

The problem with the early M36, was that there scabbards were always painted in black, which makes it nearly impossible to have perfect paint after 70 years.
However, on the plus side, they were the only one that were entirely constructed with solid nickel fittings and they will never have any plating problems.

I think the way the original paint goes in a crazed effect is lovely on these after they age.

quote:

Originally posted by mongobongo:
I think the way the original paint goes in a crazed effect is lovely on these after they age.

You're right, it gives some character to the dagger.

Did any of the chained SS pieces have the Blued scabbard versus the painted ones.

TOM

quote:

Originally posted by Tom:
Did any of the chained SS pieces have the Blued scabbard versus the painted ones.

TOM

Sure, they did. Those with blued scabbards had an extra screw to fix the middle fitting.

All blued SS scabbards have plated fittings... both type I and II. Only the early painted scabbards have solid nickel fittings with type I or type X chains.

Thats nice to know...Figured the Painted would be Plated sort of along the lines of the RZM Pieces.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline Drive:
Only the early painted scabbards have solid nickel fittings with type I or type X chains.

Hey Mike, I have never heard about this type X, what is it ?

You remember it Pat.
First early issue 36 all nickel chain with unique features.
Unfortunatly those great threads with photo examples are gone now.
Great input from FP, JR and a few other veterans.

-serge-

quote:

All blued SS scabbards have plated fittings... both type I and II. Only the early painted scabbards have solid nickel fittings with type I or type X chains.

Hey guys, what's happening ?? Just drop in to disagree with my ole buddy Skyline on his statement above. Had this one for 21 years........... all nickel, all matched, with an anodized scabbard. JR

c2

c3

"Only the early painted scabbards have solid nickel fittings with type I or type X chains."

And once again I have to disagree with this statement above. Here we have an early TYPE II, all nickel, painted scabbard, and vet purchased. When it came to the M36 Chain Dagger................ throw out the rule book.

He's Back!

Look at that burnishing!


Ok Here's my sled.

-serge-

OK...Now we can really get back into it.

Serge My Friend, you know that we can't let personal interpretation and theories be blatantly posted as absolute truths in this hobby. They can be opinions, and that's just fine. JR

Here is the info on the Type III (Type X), which I don't know if the thread is even active on this forum any more........... I wrote this up in an email topic several year back, and sent it out to collectors that has an interest on the subject. JR

The Type III chain varies only slightly at first glance from the Type II, but when examined closely, a collector is left with no doubt that this truly is in fact one variation that has been overlooked for all of these years. There is a slight variation in the connector links that join the "Wotans Knot" to the skull and runes links, but the most significant characteristics lie within the features of the links themselves. Not only do we see a thicker runes that nearly touch each other unlike the Type II links, but we now can see that the skull links vary dramatically from those seen on a Type II Chain. The skulls not only have their distinct and unique shape, but it is the first time that we see any chain variety that shows the septum in the nose of the skull. There is a slight variation in the center band of the chain as well, but is most noticeable when you have both the Type II and Type III in front of you during a magnified close examination. The Type III chain is seen associated with the earliest versions of the M36 daggers that we see with all nickel fittings, painted scabbards, PA fittings, etc that is very well outlined in Tom's book. With this new information coming out, the Type III M36 Chain Dagger is a very exciting discovery in the world of 3rd Reich Daggers ! http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/9880005114

Nothing absolute my friend JR.
But the worst thing in this hobby IMO is a closed mind.
I've seen many opinions over the years..Like SS chained Officer dagger etc. be dismissed a few years later.
The best IMO is to put it ALL out there and let the chips fall...hopefully where the evidence leads.
Because we are all still learning.

-serge-

Anyway................ just stopped by to say "hey guys". JR

Hi Skyline i have never seen a type 1 chain with all solid nickel fittings.Crossguards,scabbard throat yes with a painted scabbard this is the early type 1 36 dagger.

Thanks JR for your input, this is all new to me.
I never seen before an early all nickel fittings with an anodized scabbard.
Is this the only first example that you have ever seen
That's what I like about this hobby, there is always something new coming out.

Serge and JR, wonderful examples.

We must also keep an open mind about all this.
Reference books were written years ago and there are new evidence coming out all the time.
Of course, we can't possibly get access to every dagger that exist on this planet for a comparative study.
This is why it is so important that we all share new informations on this forum.

I have no problem conceding the point. However it is true that almost all SS chained examples with blued scabbards have plated fittings. If there are a few transitional pieces floating around it would be of no shock to anyone. And hixxy 1 of course you are right. I wrote "type I" when I meant "type II".

I have one that has all nickle fittings except for the Knot link that is steel. Unquestionably authentic with a type one chain on an annodised scabbard.

I have owned an early SS M36 with plated fittings and a painted scabbard. Direct vet purchase! It had a Bertram & Sohn stuck in the scabbard. SO JR is correct, all to many variations as the Germans surely used up any stock during a "model change" Why waste good parts??? These were VERY popular and in high demand by the SS.

What's this .............. JR on GD.com! Nice to have you back old timer!

I also have 1st type with painted scabbard, purchased from some well known collector from Colorado

These were not made for us collectors but for those who wore them. I agree one must keep an open mind when it comes to all TR artifacts.

Heah Pat,If I remember you bought that lovely Type 1 chained instead but I think you wanted them both !!!! Well Mr Nolan dont really regret the sale,I enjoyed it for several years! And there was always something else around the corner,,,,,,

Wow nice collection! Love the trumpet banner! Those are VERY VERY VERY Rare!

Woaaaaaaaaaaaah, what an incredible display.
I can only dream to ever have such a collection in my house.
Can I please stop by your place next time I'm in the UK.

WOW Hooper what a fantastic display and thanks for sharing it!

Very nice, I just showed that to my wife and she said one word.

NO

Hey does your wife know mine??????

My humble contributions to this thema. First one of my nice concitioned early Type II "with septum".

Detail.

And my late, nickled iron "normal" varation Type II.
Regards,

Stunning Chained SS daggers.
They do not get any better.

Very nice SS M36 daggers Wotan
Thanks for sharing pics of them .
Regards LH 600

Super nice example, most early M36 were worn and used, thus the typical ware and they are VERY hard to find in fine condition IMO. Love it!!!!