Well get-em out folks!

This is my Krebs NCO sword.

2

Eric:

Here's mine.

And the mark.

John

here are some beloved ones

Hartamnns Degen JST

Hi,
SS Officers sword, but not Ehrendegen
Krebs marked.

Best regards,

Maker

Unmarked Ehrendegen, nickelsilver with a little mix. If ever cleaned, it's a looong time ago.
I love it when they show patina.

Cheers,

Top

What do you call it - Ferrel - the ring above the crossguard is in plated steel. The rest of the grip fittings are nickel.

I like the way the patina builds up...
Last pic.

Best regards,

Love the untouched patina as 95% of all German daggers, swords have been cleaned up or messed with in some point in time. Very Nice examples! Oddly if one cleaned up a civil war sword it would drop the value by 50% or less.

Mine has the lovely greenish patina.

I have one additional new born not yet in the family photo.

One is a Krebs, the others early nickel silver and unmarked.

My way of attaching the portepee so as not to stretch and put pressure on this nearly 75 year old material.

Tor's unmarked example that shows a combination of a steel ferrule and nickel hilt parts, is something that can be seen with an early degen. Like the M36 Chain dagger, the time frame of which we observe the manufacture of these initial production run degens comprised of all nickel parts, was very short. It's my belief that the combination of steel and nickel started showing up the latter part of 1936. I attribute this also to the fact that parts to put together these degens were being supplied by more than one vendor. Hence we see ferrules made from steel, pommel nuts too, and grip runes even made from aluminum, all while being matched with nickel hilt fittings.

Here's some in my "South West Sword Stand" This was when I only had one example and it's the one in the back. I'll take some more pictures when I get a chance.
Awesome dispay! John.
Jim

HERE IS MINE,HOPE YOU LIKE.NO MAKER WITH SS # ON BLADE. JOE.

Here's a picture of my examples. Top to botton:
Top: P D Krebs
Middle: Unmarked example
Bottom: Dachau Example
Jim

Hi all , nice degens here , this is my contribution .

2

Trigger,

SS Officers sword, but not Ehrendegen?
These are so called Ehrendegen.

Example Roehm Daggers are Ehrendolche (Ehrendolch), translated in English Honor Dagger. But in books or collector scene Honor Daggers are the ones with the oak crossguard style etc. So for my view the given daggers name Honor Dagger is not 100% right for my view.

Rob NL, do you have a photo from the Grip and is the blade marked? The knot says 35, nice!

Robert - In my opinion (and interpretation) an Ehren-xxxxx is awarded and not an item available for purchase unless you meet certain criteria.

Not too long ago these degens without the SS-runes were called officer-candidates sword, I just elect to call it a Degen, not Ehrendegen as I have so far seen no evidence to these being awarded...


RobNL: That's a beauty!!!!

Cheers,

right awarded, is there a sales list out that SS off. could purchase them? I doubt it, and for sure not before 1939 or so.

Hi guys , thanks for the compliments

grip.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
right awarded, is there a sales list out that SS off. could purchase them? I doubt it, and for sure not before 1939 or so.

Didn't the the SS Man/ Officer have to purchase their dagger/Degan after they were authorized to carry one? The only exception may have been Rohm/Himmler daggers.

REALLY nice to see these examples. I feel lucky to own one as they are much harder to obtain than the M36 daggers. Just like the daggers many of the Degens have been reproduced or messed with.

how is the slogan? "always earned, never given".
These Degen are falling under an award term i.e. JST/JSB and are so called Ehrendegen, given for honor incl. with the document. Parts where actually done from Gahr in München for these Degen. So called Dachau swords, I have no deep history about them. And from Gahr to PMD is kind of a difference for me.

Starting for the rank of Untersturmfuhrer Off. should normally get this Degen but this did not happen often at all. JST-JSB with successful conclusion received this Degen and the rest was given from HH. This are the numbers I was told once for the given Degens. As higher the rank as more you will find.

SS-Führerkorps 362 Standartenführer (from 621), 236 Oberführer (from 276), 88 Gruppenführer (from 96), 91 Obergruppenführer (from 92) and all four Oberstgruppenführer.

SS Officer swords were presented and could not be purchased. So, they are Ehrendegen just as a Himmler or Rohm dagger would be.
Best Wishes
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:
Hi,
SS Officers sword, but not Ehrendegen
Krebs marked.

Best regards,

Bob, Robert,
So this degen without the inlaid runes in the grip is an awarded Officers Ehrendegen in your opinion?

with the runes in the grip ...

when you think I am wrong why is then in every SS Off. file from the SS-Personalhauptamt the Ehrendegen listed? You find there as well listed the bloodorder, Julleucter, Sportsbadge, TK ring etc.

And knowing is not an opinion, these are facts.
Not sure why you wonder about this matter that it is not an Ehrendegen.

quote:

So this degen without the inlaid runes in the grip is an awarded Officers Ehrendegen in your opinion?

Tor-Helge

My understanding is that;Up until fairly recently the SS sword without the runes in the grip was thought to be an officers candidate sword and worn until the candidate became an officer.
Currenty the thinking is that this sword was a private purchase by those officers who had not been awarded an honor degen.
Jim

Jim, I am totally with you!!

Robert, maybe you misunderstood my original post, as it shows there the "candidate" degen without the runes in the grip.

I agree about the ones with SS-runes, never questioned these as Ehrendegen.

But I do not (yet.. ) think of the " Officers Candidate" degens as Ehrendegens...
Do you?

Hi All:

Thought you might find this photo interesting of Himmler presenting Ehrendegens to new graduates from an SS officer school. I am working from microfilm so this was a tough one to get.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

Thanks for the picture Ross:
This photo and others like it has always raised a question for me. It appears that Himmler would take whatever sword was given to him from the pile the other officer is carrying and present it to the next man. Now we all know that honor degens come in different lengths to account for differering heights of the wearer. I wonder if and how this was taken into consideration during the presentation?
Jim

Helge, then it was a misunderstanding from my side. The one w/o the rune button are no Ehrendegen, right.

Nice to see the fresh graduated leaders, probably a Junkerschule graduation.

Jim, I don't know, but suspect they were discreetly temporarily marked for presentation to the proper owner, or were sorted out after the ceremony.

Grumpy:
It always appears to me that these ceremonies were held at night under torchlight which IMO would make trying to read something interesting. I'm sure there was some way this was done it just isnn't apparent from the pictures.
Jim

Hi Guys!
Here are a few of mine, the middle one belonged to a General!
Best Wishes,
Bob

wasn't there a proper size requirement for the Junkerschulen (in the early years like this photo shows)? Then they needed no shorter Degen for the long legged new LAH Untersturmfürer. Just pick the longest ones

Beautiful examples Bob:
To me the SS/Police swords are the most elegant of all 3rd Reich swords. In a most sinister way of course!
Jim

Thanks Jim,
I just have a soft spot for all swords, especially Damascus ones?! SS/Police swords are awesome as are Luftwaffe and the rest. This is my problem in life, I like it all!!!
Best Wishes,
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
Thanks for the picture Ross:
This photo and others like it has always raised a question for me. It appears that Himmler would take whatever sword was given to him from the pile the other officer is carrying and present it to the next man. Now we all know that honor degens come in different lengths to account for differering heights of the wearer. I wonder if and how this was taken into consideration during the presentation?
Jim

Or maybe the presentation was just that - A presentation of the degen, a ceremony and the degens were collected afterwards and the recipients actually later received theirs??

this would not show any German traditions, do it right and not only half way ...

On 2 instances I have seen an SS officer's name on a small piece of paper, that had been rolled and placed on the inside of the pommel nut, of an early degen.

That could explain the "sorting out after the ceremony" possibility.

That's been my thought after I encountered the second of such degens, found with the recipients name on the piece of paper.

Why would it be so hard? IE example any graduation have 100's of diplomas. I can't imagine it was hard to organize a group in a specific order with a bunch of swords.

I would suspect that the officer was carrying about 10 degens perhaps at one time. They would kind of get mixed up a little when taking one from the stack at least for the first few. Perhaps the name tag under the pommel assured that in the end the right degen ended up with the proper new candidate.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Rader:
Why would it be so hard? IE example any graduation have 100's of diplomas. I can't imagine it was hard to organize a group in a specific order with a bunch of swords.

Funny, the graduations I have been to lately, they hand them the diploma cover(all the same), and give them the actual named diploma paper for it after the ceremony. I guess in modern times, it has become too complicated....

that is sad!!! My trade school, high school and college (both) had our names on the diploma.

quote:

Originally posted by vintagetimenow:

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Rader:
Why would it be so hard? IE example any graduation have 100's of diplomas. I can't imagine it was hard to organize a group in a specific order with a bunch of swords.

Funny, the graduations I have been to lately, they hand them the diploma cover(all the same), and give them the actual named diploma paper for it after the ceremony. I guess in modern times, it has become too complicated....

The reason they give only the covers is the grad may not have passed all their exams.

Ref JR,s comment,
I too have seen a "name tag" in the form
of a rolled strip of paper carrying the
name,SS # Rank placed inside the hollowed
out pommel nut.Often wondered if it was part
of the "Himmler Presentation" process???
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Hello ,

i like the Swords.
I find he looks fine to my.
The Setup from the Swords looks beautiful !!

Sometime i find a Sword for my Collection!

The Pics from Himmler from J:R and Ross.
NICE!

Gays congratulate to your Swords.

Best Regards Sebastian

36 Model........... early no maker..........

nice stuff!

HI Guys, My lovely example once belonged to SS Gruppenfuhrer Dr Friederich Weber.
I've had this degen researched and verified by
Thomas Wittmann and Robert McDivitt. Both these gentlemen gave me tons of information to verify
the original recipient. Dr Weber was very instrumental in helping Hitler gain power and was present at the beer hall putsch in 1923.
Like all these swords, they are a very important part of history.
Regards, Wolfslair.

#2

#3

A seldom seen degen of significant importance and attributed.................a wonderful piece! Could you check the metal composition of the hilt pieces for us ? I like to try and date these officer's versions with that info. Thanks an congratulations... JR

Thank you JR for your compliments.
The fittings on this sword are all of nickel silver and the SS knot tag interior marked 158/35. Hope this helps.
Of interest, this sword will be coming up for sale in the near future.
Regards, Wolfslair.

Indeed one of the earliest production examples. A fine one for sure.

nice stuff!

My newest one.

next

Extraordinary!

quote:

Originally posted by tobau:
next

I'm breathless!

Here's my only Officer Degen; hilt is all nickel except Assmann aluminum Rune button. Stepped fit.

2

Beatiful swords gentlemen. Great photos but nothing beats when you can see and hold one in your hands.
Regards,
Wolfslair

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
Thanks for the picture Ross:
This photo and others like it has always raised a question for me. It appears that Himmler would take whatever sword was given to him from the pile the other officer is carrying and present it to the next man. Now we all know that honor degens come in different lengths to account for differering heights of the wearer. I wonder if and how this was taken into consideration during the presentation?
Jim

Here's a thought. Maybe they got all these officers who where roughly the same height to stand side by side. If you study the photo you can see these men are all nearly the same size.
10 guys at 6 feet stand together, next ten guy who are 6 feet 2 inch stand together etc.
Both photos show guys lined up all seem to be the same height.
Just an alternate observation! Best, Wolfslair.

thanks for dredging up this rare photo...a proud moment in time to be sure.

Here's one that came in recently. Unmarked, uncleaned, 33 in. blade.

-serge-

Let's try it without the RR Eagle back-drop. -serge-

I looked just to see JR post one... JR you sure can photo those bad boys you have. U were humble on this thread with just that picture!

Whats the longest out there? Just got one in thats 40" total and the blade is 33", seems pretty long !

I have had blades on SS degens up to an exceptional 37.5 inches in length.

A 33 inch blade, such as the example you own, is an attractive length for these SS degens and very desirable.

Posting for Barry Brown.

* The tallest sword is an early no maker mark type with 37.5" blade.
* The middle is an early P D Krebs with 33" blade.
* The shortest is a "birthday sword" with 30.5" blade.

Gary

NICE!

trying to keep this thread active........ Unmarked blade, early nickel separate step fitting SS Officer's Degen.

Krebs marked and attributed, 35 1/4" blade

JR,

Any luck with the man's service number?

See you next month in Pittsburgh ...

W~

Good night Irene.....finally have my electricity and internet back!

SS-Hauptsturmführer Hans Meyer, SS No. 48 462, DOB 15 May 1904, NSDAP 731 018. All I ever found on him were his NSDAP membership file cards. See you in Pittsburgh.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Are there any etched examples?

Here is my sword.
It is an early one full nickel

best regards
seb.

Pretty nice degen ,Sebastian

i haven't seen it before!

Gerd

If you like the ountouched salty ones you can see more of it in my thread "something salty" in the sword forum.
Regards,

here is my early degen

Hi guys,

I'm new to this forum and i have an urgent question to ask.
On the net, i found a Höller, Solingen SS Officer sword for sale, now offcourse
my question is, could this be an authentique one. The seller is not a
professional & he is no collector. He seems to be thrustworthy.

We have agreed on the price and saturday morning we will meet for the sell.

sword

Never heard of an SS Officer degan by Holler.
There's something going on with that back-strap...
I would not buy this one.
Sorry.

I'm in agreement, and tried (without success) to take a better look with the back strap/connector piece just to see what was being used to fill in the grove. FP

I wouldn't buy it, but there does seem to be something questionable about such swords. The "conventional wisdom" is they are post-war "parts" swords. Some, perhaps all, are just that. However, for what it's worth, occasionally, such a sword appears "out of the woodwork," as a vet bring-back. They could still have been post-war assembled, but I wonder. There is a "Dachau" type in Angolia's "sword" book with a "Voos" blade. I bought one years ago for a song that has "Dachau" hilt fittings, but with a "Holler" blade and conventional scabbard. Purchased from the vet's family. I'm well aware that souveniers were being scavanged all over Europe by G.I's and, no doubt, many were being accomodated by the indigenous population, who would not hesitate to enhance something to make a fast dollar. But, I wonder if there was an inordinate demand for SS items, as compared to other items. In other words, would it have been worth it to alter a police sword to an SS model in those days? Would an SS sword have brought more than a police sword back then? It's all speculation and I have mentioned it before, but, if some such swords are original to the period, there are two principal theories, I think. l) The first is the "Dachau" forge was forced to order sword parts, including blades, from other manufacturers, due to a shortage of their own parts or because such a high demand for finished swords was placed upon it. 2) Some police swords were altered by SS members because of a shortage of, or discontinuance of, swords. Such would likely have only been done by those who were authorized to carry the sword. Another possibility is police swords were altered for parade and ceremonial wear, while the actual award degen was safely put away to prevent damage. It seems most, but not all, SS degens are found in remarkably good condition, which may lend some credence to this idea. In the meantime, the safe bet is to go only with the so-called "textbook" examples.

Here is mine. Unmarked, not minty, but I'm quite happy to own it.

Early construction, something I like best.

Their length makes them hard to photograph...

SD Obersturmfuhrer with ss-officer sword without runes. Probobly private purchase. An option for officers not graduated from Junkerschule.

Fjordor, welcome to the forum! This crtain photograph is well known within collector circles. I personally did always wonder if it shows a somehow PERIOD manipulated degen. The middle of grip looks for me like something has happened to it. Would liek to have a look on the original photograph...
I do collect "wearing..." pics and I do have at least two photographs with SSdegens in wear which clearly have been PERIOD manipulated. One seems to have a custom set in runes emblem and the other one has a turned around grip most likely from a police officer degen, obviously not to show the police emblem.
And I do have a lot of pics of SSleaders wearing police degens. At least in one case I have proof that he never has had any period connex to police. The wish for wearing degens has been present by leaders and the bestowal has been ceased with the start of war. Therefore some strange things did happen already during the period.
Regards,

Here's one to add to the list of makers...Carl Julius Krebs.

Nice one fsmc. Is it marked with the runes under the crossguard?

Thanks! Double stamp under the guard and none on the scabbard.