Wish I had of been a bit quicker on the draw

http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/?sh...el-muller-30055

So rare, I think it's a laser etched fake.

John are you accusing Tom Johnson of selling a fake SS dagger? I am asking regards, Ryan

That sure seems cheap.

Ryan, with those pictures, it's hard to say for sure, but the blade has been re-cross grained, and the etching looks laser precise. Most of us have seen original blades reworked in that manner. Tom Johnson is a great guy, and he guarantees his stuff, but we ALL have been fooled by fakes at some point.

Grip & crossguards look very questionable as well as that blade, maybe the scabbard is the only part thats real on that dodgey dagger ?

i also noticed that his chained SS dagger has a fake chain & the grip looks dodgey http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/?shopp_product=early-1936-chained-ss-dagger-30042

Whats going on with this dealer ?

You can actually see the lateral laser lines in the etch! Acid does not react that way on steel, you can see the clear perfect lines of the outer edges of the etch.Where are my "Acid Nibbles"! The steel looks like the grey stuff coming from the ebay Europeans The runes look like Reddic runes. The guard to grip fit is not good. I would love to see the tang,, I bet it has the density of lead or pewter. I would love to pop the hatch on it and let's see what makes it tick.
Did anyone ever bring up the last Xmas dagger that sold, same blade type, same laser usage, same crappy fit, all around (yes even for a "prototype dagger" .
and that is my 2 centavos, back to my bunker I go.
I am only judging a dagger, accusations are for prosecutors and politicians I am neither.

Hi John I have known you and have respected you as a GDC forum member for over 15 years I have known Tom for 22 years I also respect his knowledge and reputation I wont buy the assertion that Tom was fooled by this dagger. If the dagger is indeed bad there are only two conclusions that can be drawn Tom doesn't inspect or see every dagger that is listed upon his site or the more obvious John I trust your opinion cheers and best, Ryan

Hopefully not a new strain of cancer in the market place ..and why just one example ?

In hand inspections are always a must in these one of a kind cases and as John said..everyone makes mistakes regardless of their dealer/collector tenure.

A question of Provenance should be raised in rarities like this to support the rarity. Where and who did it come from ?
Blindly posting a dagger forsale without details of history other than just posting it with the normal expected descriptions that are labeled on thousands of daggers.

That description would not sell me at all and have seen it numerous times. A little more needs to be expressed about this dagger ..where it came from etc.

Or would this be as rare as a Boker early SA ?

Not binning this dagger but very skeptical and more info is needed.

Regards Larry

A clear 'meine Ehre Heisst Treue' laser etched fake blade. Not an existing SS maker so nothing more to say imo.

Dave I'm curious to hear your opinion on this dagger as posted cheers and best, Ryan

Sorry, no opinion possible from those photos.

Dave

Note that 16-17 years ago, TJ offered an SS dagger by previously unknown maker K&M. I drove up to Fredericksburg looked at and bought it. You can see the dagger inn TW's book. It helped untangle the M7/29 mystery.

There was a blade with this maker mark posted on the W A forums on 4-18-2016, take a look if you want to. Hmmm??

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857254&highlight=Henkel+MUller+SS

Quite clearly a parts dagger with a fake blade but because johnson is selling it people are frightened of expressing their true opinions.Sad.

My opinion is I would be quite upset if I spent $4500.00 on a parts dagger, a little homework goes a long way in this hobby.

Thank goodness this has been exposed, I can't imagine this would fool anyone, least of all TJ... These fake or "re-etched" blades have been around for a couple of years, usually with exotic makers or chained, but seen them even on Eickhorns. There is nothing correct about the motto, this style was never period used.

Pure laser etched junk, not even well executed. Here's a few others, coming out of Eastern Europe as far as I can tell...

Red

Some more fakes! Plenty of these around unfortunately.

No argument there. Not liking what I saw including the one Mac 66 commented on, while it's not something that I've done consistently, I've been tracking the 'East Bloc' fakes for a while. The first ones were atrocious, but they keep on making product improvements. Also having seen that unfortunately TMJ is not the only one who has been giving an OK, and/or been selling the occasional fake "SS" dagger. Best Regards, Fred

I'm a complete novice when it comes to SS daggers but even I can see that this blade does not look right. Has anyone contacted Johnson to let him know that this dagger has been found not to be a correct piece so he can do the honourable thing and give the buyer his money back if he has not already done so.

Best Russ.

Then you can dig up Attwood. Refund case.

I have emailed Johnson about this dagger and asked him to respond personally on here or through another source, including myself, to what has been pointed out, i also suggested he refund the buyer if he now agrees that it is not a correct piece. I will keep you informed of the outcome.

Best Russ.

He will respond to my email tomorrow.

Russ.

looking forward to seeing the response to say the least cheers and best, Ryan

Dave do you know what Tom W says about this particular SS dagger or does he have an opinion regarding this maker? Was it in his reference book? cheers, Ryan

I've no clue what TW thinks about this one, if he even knows about it. Like others, I suspect he would not venture an opinion without having it in hand.

Thanks Dave. Others have denounced this dagger as being an obvious reproduction from the online photos. They have also posted pictures of reproduction blades and daggers of the same here til now unknown and unaccepted maker. If Tom W might need a hands on inspection before rendering an opinion is it possible that the members here after been hasty in their condemnation of this SS dagger? Dave do you believe that there is a possibility that the Johnson SS dagger is authentic and period? cheers and best, Ryan

you seem to be pushing something here, Ryan.

As I said at the start, I could not venture an opinion based on those photos. Same probably applies to TW as I said above.

Call one or both of them and ask.

Dave, why is it when I ask an entirely legitimate question I'm pushing it?? I respect your knowledge base and your expertise regarding SS daggers. You are considered an expert in the field and certainly are held in high regard on this forum. I am a forum member who merely asked for an opinion. I did not flag this dagger and have NO opinion on it. I DO hold Tom Johnson in VERY high regard as I do Tom Wittmann. You have been a vocal proponent of exposing dealers who sell knowingly fraudulent items in the past during the life of this forum. You have requested that members name said dealers. I consider Tom an expert in his field and except for Witty there are none better in my opinion. Their collective opinions are gospel for me on SS daggers. I also value your opinion. I asked for an opinion of originality based on the pics of the dagger and wanted to know if you think there is any possibility that this dagger could be of the period. Should you not wish to offer an opinion I find it strange but I totally GET IT. The photos that Tom had online were certainly good enough that some one chose to purchase. cheers and best I will buy you a drink at the Max

For the record I have no agenda I'm hoping the dagger is period I'm pulling for Tom cheers

I agree with Dave, has to be seen in hand.
In my early collecting days back in the mid 1950's I turned up an early SS M33 service dagger with the Wilhelm Halbach TM. I did not think it averse at the time, it was a nicely built piece and I was pleased to have found it. A few years later I showed it to a local dagger king who wised me up to the "well known fact" that Halbach never made the SS dagger, only large well known firms were contracted to supply the SS. Disappointed, I disposed of my dagger. Wish I still had it as an example of either an early fake, or just maybe............

Circle the wagons!

Waw... a hand inspection...!?
So no one here can see that the inscription is laser etched...?
Or is that fact just ignored because the dagger was sold by Johnson?

For those who can log in on WAF, I've found another thread regarding these crap blades. Exactly the same inscription.
Bogus none the less. It is a real shame that TJ sells this dagger. Loosing his credibility with it!!!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857254

Hi Barry I agree I was merely asking Dave to chime in based on his wide knowledge off SS daggers in general this dagger has been trashed here I was merely asking for an opinion as to whether or not there was a chance that the dagger offered and sold by Tom was authentic. I respect Tom a great deal and owe him an immeasurable debt. But many here have said it is bad from his pics we used to have a code here at GDC that stated a person had to provide greater detail when pronouncing an item as fake unfortunately we all have stories like yours take care cheers, Ryan

Well Ryan, you asked for opinions... well you had them.
The dagger is fake. It has not chance to be Original. So, also no problem with trashing a fake item.
Weither Dave says it or someone else.
If another one's opinion doesn't caunt and you want opinion from Dave alone, then you better write him a PM or so... :-)

I have receive quite an interesting response from Tom but because I am crap with computers and using a laptop with a dongle that keeps losing the signal it will have to wait till tomorrow to show you what he had to say.

Best Russ.

Vikings used to cut the tooth from Narwals and sell them as Unicorn horns, I bet all the vikings swore they were real as well.

"Say it ain't so, Joe" comes to mind here... Seriously Guys, how this is even being considered as authentic by some folks is astonishing? I'm sure the scum that produces these fakes is loving this, and giving them some confidence that they are close with their fakes! The laser striations are clearly visible on these "etches"!!!

Ryan, re the GDC "Code" in providing greater detail, I did post some of the many copies of this inscription, others have provided links, this blade is an easy one-glance fake, as testament by most collectors posting to this thread. I am a typographer by profession, that means I study type and lettering and do authentications on scripts and autographs, I could provide a detailed analysis of the problems which make this inscription "impossible" as period, but is that a good idea on a public forum? given we know the scumbag fakers look for feedback on their wares here.

BTW, I regard Tom J, TOM W, Ron W, Fred Stephens as the dagger Gods, probably even Attwood advanced the hobby to where it is today. Even with my reverence and respect for these men, I'm certain they too have made mistakes, even the German Dealers like Detlev back in the day, Weitze and Carsten post for opinions, nobody knows everything, but there is a bank of very knowledgable collectors whose opinions cannot be completely ignored. Sometimes "opinions" can be contentious and destructive, which is why these authors don't post to Forums, other than RW and FJS, but the blade in question is already well known as a fake, it should never had made it this far...

JMHO, Red

See Johnson's reply

As you can see Tom has on more than one occasion WRONGLY accused me of saying this company did not make SS daggers, but that did make me wonder where are all the other UNQUESTIONABLE examples of this maker if they did produce them. His response is like a politicians, first get the sympathy vote (no need to mention you were at the hospital Tom) then finish with a long speech on irrelevant information to this topic and to point out what a good guy he has been to gain the popularity vote.

Basically what we have here is a consignor (if he exists) who can not or will not say who he originally bought the dagger off, which does not really matter anyway, and we also do not know whether this consignor who had this dagger was not in some way himself responsible for the laser etched blade when it was in his possession. So it does not matter who the consignor originally bought this dagger off or how long he had it, what matters is it has NOW been sold for the consignor through Tom with a laser etched blade.

Best Russ.

Well, I just read that (thanks for the kudos on the pop the hatch comment, ps oxidation is not proprietary to era, oxidation in 2017 is the same as 1933 any chemist can do that) anyhow I digress. I have followed the European fakes and laser jobs for a good amount of time, I have bought a few too see what they are like. Mostly they come out of The czech republic, liberac to be precise (212.00 on ebay, a small price to pay of knowledge, I own every reference book on German daggers I can find, another small price to pay), the metal is pathetically under the RC hardness of 50, you can hear the difference if you strike the blade, metal density. The laser etching that they do is remedial, the lateral laser lines are evident, the sharp edges (that is the case in the blade in question) are perfect! I have see few daggers with a motto that even comes close to this one in sharpness, I put it up on a big screen to get a better look, I see NO nibbles, not a one, the metal is even throught, acid can't do this, it is an organic reaction that lacks precision, it reacts to the imperfections, varying densities, impurities etc. in the steel, lasers dont care).
Russ, I have to get in the boat with you on this one. The "politics" of this blade are self evident, the opinions (vast majority) are also self evident.
I am usually a silent observer (the scientist in me demands it), however when something like this arises, I feel as though it must be addressed, with a collection of over 200 TR daggers and other edged weapons (mostly for actual use) I have a vested interest in what is real and what is fake, for me it is about the history 1st, the quality second and thirdly the use.
Back to my bunker I go, with a totally new perspective.
Regardless of people's opinions of posters, authors, fakers, sellers, buyers etc. etc. I am thankful a Forum exists, a place to exchange information, ideas and opinions, to showcase our collections, to seek out other works of art (and to let me use a bunch of run on sentences).
Oi

The only thing I am confused by is the original dagger description which states very rare maker never seen before on an SS dagger by Tom Johnson. Yet in the reply on GDC the dagger is mentioned as having been purchased from either Tom J or Tom W. Certainly then one of these fine gentleman would recall such a rare and unknown dagger having been sold by them regardless of selling thousands. Perhaps a mention in Witty's book?? I don't know... A one of a kind maker stands alone and stands out. Also wouldn't Witty be contacted to see if he remembers selling etc..... I also agree that this dagger if this rare is certainly worth in excess of $8000 in this condition, maybe $10,000 if a nice Boker can SELL for $8000 I would assume that there would be a line up for sure. Dave, you collect by type/maker and certainly you would have an interest in an outstandingly rare one of a kind maker from a trusted and well respected authority on SS daggers? Again I have no opinion on the dagger's originality therefore I have not offered comment. I agree that there are many knowledgeable collector members here with many areas of expertise... Red barons knowledge of blade etching comes to mind. One does not need to sell or be a "dealer" to be an authority. Having said this I have read Tom's reply. I have to accept Tom at his word as I have no reason to question either his knowledge or his character. The issues I have with the entire situation are mentioned at the start of my post. There are many respected and knowledgeable GDC members/dealers who are considered authorities on blades and SS daggers. I would have liked to have read their opinions based on the images provided. cheers and best, Ryan

To add my 2 cents worth here, and not taking any position on this particular SS dagger since I profess to know nothing about SS daggers nor SS makers, I have found a very simple question will answer the issue of originality or authenticity when you asks this of any dealer or anyone who resells blades:

'I am thinking of selling this dagger or item, will you make me an offer? If not, why not?'

I have found this question short circuits some of the automatic defenses that arise when you ask one dealer for their opinion on another's items.

John

Just thought I better show you what I emailed to Johnson so you know I'm not Mr nasty.

Dear Mr Johnson,
It has been brought to the attention of collectors of SS daggers on germandaggers forum that you have recently sold an SS dagger on your site that is said to be a complete fake, the main concern is what definitely appears to be a laser etched blade. It is also said that the maker on the blade did not produce SS daggers and it has been compared next to others deemed also to be fakes. If you visit the site you can see what has been said and respond to the accusations either on the site, through a friend (perhaps Ron Weinand) or I could let them know what your response is. It would be interesting to know why you think this dagger is a legit item. If you did not personally check this dagger out before you sold it and now agree that it is not a correct piece perhaps you could do the honourable thing and refund the buyer his $4500.00 back. Thank you for your time and look forward to hear what you have to say on this matter.


That is the email word for word. Dos'nt look like he's gonna hold his hands up to this one.
Best Russ.

I see Tom was baited and responded with e-mail on post #330993
I believe it should be posted in full here Mr.Russ
As was the condition Per Tom's e-mail.
It is a great letter (e-mail)

The email has been shown in full Damast, every word of Tom's reply is in post 330993. If you don't believe me contact Tom and ask him. As I've already said I'm crap with computers and had to get the librarian in the local library on their computer to do this for me and she copied and pasted every word of Tom's reply. Please contact him and ask him or PM me an email address and I will have it forwarded to you.

Russ.

To Tom Johnson,
Well Tom you can see (i think) that some very knowledgeable people on here have given good reason to show this blade as being a laser etched example, i sense others are holding back out of their friendship for you. Nothing in your email (which has been shown in its entirety as you requested) TECHNICALLY explains why in YOUR OPINION the etch is acid etched and not laser etched, you have avoided it with talk of who had the dagger and how long they had it. For me at least, your response was a bit of a let down which deviated away from the main topic of the blade and ended with you publicizing your books. If you can point to anything that indicates this blade as being acid etched then please feel free to email me and i will post your reply, in its entirety on this forum, but please stick to specific technical information.

Russ.

I have been reading this with interest as there is never a consensus on one of these and it is basically people getting their chance to bad mouth certain people. But there always seems to be a universal battle cry from any of the detractors of a major dealer. You are telling us that the only reason anyone would support the dealer is because they are friends with him, or conversely they are not joining in on the trashing because they are his friends. Well, I am not friends with TJ or Dave or the other tom. I have exposed my share of reproductions here, so I am not for or against anyone.

That being said, TJ was quite clear that the technology to do these laser etches has only been around 2 years. A fact people apparently agreed to up to your last post. His point is simple. The technology only existed 2 years ago and the dagger is much older. That is pretty conclusive and that is what must be addressed by you, Russ1

You know, address the actual facts, not just a popularity contest with you and your friends, but factually dispute his statement that the technology has only existed 2 years.

I believe laser etching in the context of lithographic plate-making, promotional and material engraving has been around since at least the 80s, maybe earlier, but it has been popularized and easily accessible since the early 2000s in advertising and marketing branding, the laser equipment now is inexpensive and available from many branding vendors. I believe the context of the "about 2-year" reference relates to the first time I encountered this pattern of etching on a blade.

Red

Muller blade without the fittings that was posted 2 years ago.

JR, what is the story about this blade?

It was some file photos that I had of a blade that was posted on a forum, over 2 years ago.

That sounds about right to me. Laser engraved guns have been around a lot longer than two years, with all sorts of machines now on the market with different capabilities at much better prices. Not just etching/engraving, but also laser cutters and welders. Best Regards, Fred

Is Mr. Johnson and expert in laser technology or Daggers? I am not accusing anyone of anything therefore let's address the science, not opinion, "just the facts". The technology to produce laser engravings on metal has been around for way longer than 2 years! Lazer blades have been sold on ebay for longer than 2 years! If that statement were correct then how were other items being laser engraved prior to the last 24 months, last I checked lasers have been around for longer than two years, Vector graphics have been around longer than that, Vectoring is the for laser engraving. Ask a laser engraver, I did. Does anyone own a firearm with a serial number, how about a piece of industrial equipment, or lab equipment, maybe even electronic parts. Do we think those were all forged numbers? hand engraved? stamped? done in the last two years, Nope
So let us address the facts, not about the blade itself but the technology to which we are discussing (seems to be falling outside of the SS dagger discussion but what the heck lets go for the ride) Information is power.
Lasers have been "burning' metal longer than two years, Fact.
Reproducers have been laser etching TR blades longer than two years, Fact. Just look at the the history of what has been sold on ebay.
I could care less about a seller, a buyer, a poster, an author etc. Or even a dagger for that matter. I do however care about technology and science. Opinions about a dagger seem to vary from one end of the spectrum to the other. The facts with regards to technology are irrefutable, it takes about 5 minutes to do the research.
Oi

Thanks JR. As you noted we have seen those before.

Both Vern and I have been to post Tom Johnson's entire email with success. Hope we can get it here before long.

Dave

Interesting discussion, hope it keeps going so we learn more.

Dave i tried to copy & paste Mr Johnsons email without success ?


Regards Mac 66

Russ
Please post the letter or e-mail on the forum.. As was the condition Tom stated..
Not a link...
You seem to have no problem with computer skills on the other forum with your negative posts about Tom..
So Russ I never heard back from you on the other forum, will you be at the MAX show to take me up on my offer of two different free Damascus reference books I have set aside for you?

They are a big help to (serious) collectors.
I posted on the other forum to Help with new and young collectors at the MAX show I will give away a limited number of books I imported on Damascus steel By Manfred Sachse.. And also another on Wootz and Persian blades..
This is for the MAX show only....
Doing this to help with promoting a good collecting attitude and to help promote the hobby..
Those who know me know what I collect and know that I am a collector 1st.. Will be sharing my table at the MAX..
If a dealer out there has a new and serious collector bring them by and see if I can set them up with a book... It will help you and the hobby.. A educated buyer is the best buyer...
As far as the thread any problems with items Tom sells it is covered in the letter.
Do I belong to a circle or a (camp) I do not..
But I really do enjoy this hobby and always trying to learn more...
Regards: James Brown

When you paste Tom's letter, it looks like it's there, but when posted, it dissappears

Exactly, John.

Driving Vern and I nuts

Damast
The email Tom sent me as I have already said is shown in its entirety in the link, it is a link because as far as I could tell there is too much text, the librarian who done it for me who is a bit of wiz on computers even had some problems herself working out how to get it shown and this link is what she came up with, if you think I am withholding information then you are wrong and I will be happy to forward the email to anyone who would like to PM me an email address then maybe they could manage to post it. Concerning my negative posts on another forum about Tom, do you consider trying to get Tom to do something with all that WKC documentation sitting rotting away in his office as being negative, I see it as trying to advance the hobby. My computer skills as said are crap, but typing a few words in a box and pressing submit is within my means, whenever I need pics shown I get help, maybe someday I will learn. I wont be at the Max show as I live in England and at this moment I don't have the finances for a return flight to America, accommodation and expenses, I have other priorities in my life and collecting daggers is only one of my hobbies, the other is bodybuilding/powerlifting which isn't cheap. Jim W I will send you a PM to answer your post as I don't want to spoil the thread.

Russ.

That's the same problem we had and that's why I think she created a link.

Russ.

Thanks JR, to place these pictures here.
I posted the link to this blade on WAF in post #330884 but that post was deleted.

I wonder why?

Try this

That is working for me, nicely done. I tried some other ways, but I'm guessing that the original must have had some kind of a hidden "poison pill" in it that somehow disabled the text? Best Regards, Fred

Nothing explaining why he thinks the etch is acid etched and not laser etched, also concerning the blade he only talks about the time the consignor supposedly had the dagger and there's no saying the consignor was not in some way responsible himself for the blade. As I've already said the thing that matters is that the dagger has been sold to the new owner for the consignor through Tom.

Best Russ.

Very Interesting!!! I know nothing, I know nothing!!!
HEAVY GERMAN ACCENT.
Perhaps the new owner is happy with the dagger?
If it is real, it could be worth $10,000.00, $4500.00 is a deal.
Ive been to the SOS lots of times, lots of repo stuff there, nobody cares. Like another topic asked, how many really survived, we all may have fakes we think are real. Who knows!! Ed

Russ
Thank you for the reply...
Yes, you want Tom to give his period reference collection away because you feel he is doing nothing with it..
Are you aware that some of the documents have already been photographed in some of Toms books? But I already know the answer to this..
It is not for a any forum poster to decide what a person does with his collection..
I spelled this all out before. It seems period reference collectors are to give it away for free here on the internet. And it seems also many get the attitude it is owed to them or than they go as far as to say (owed to the hobby).....
How can this be when the majority posting do not even own 12 basic books on dagger collecting. ( I come to this conclusion by the (some) of the postings..) This is no problem for new collectors of course as they need to ease into it.
And it is all about cost.. Will pay $10,000.00 for a dagger and not $30.00 to $250.00 for a good reference book.
Again I have bought a book or period book for one picture in it....
Those who collect period reference find it is very rare and expensive to buy including travel and shipping.

Now as I said before please let me know Russ or anyone else because your dagger collection is just sitting there ROTTING { LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE IT AWAY} As I want to be 1st in line...

A general post....
Good or bad I have respect for the pioneers of this hobby and there are many names that can be listed here..
Mistakes have been made and also great discoveries but people have learned by there mistakes in the hobby believe me I have and collectors and dealers have made profit from the discoveries.....
Again as I have said before (good) dealers love educated buyers as they do not have to hand hold or do a big sales pitch to sell a item.. It will sell itself...

Get over it Damast it was only a suggestion and on another forum.

The three words...But not the three magic words.. That Serge ask for.
I posted this here also to show you have a agenda this week and you seem to have zeroed in on someone.
Regards: James

Three that should apply to you.
My only agenda here is to get a refund for the unfortunate buyer of this dagger if indeed it is somehow proven to be fake.
Some people always think the worst of others. Can we get back to the dagger now.

Russ

I am closing this post for 12-24 hours to re-read it and probably crop it. There seems to be a lot of bashing and trolling and baiting going on.

Russ/Bulldog: Please re-read the GDC Code of Conduct posted at the bottom left of each page.

Dave

After re-reading this several times, I conclude that most possible opinions have been voiced, so I am leaving it closed. I will prune the trolling and insults in a few days.

If anyone has new info to offer, send me an email.

Thanks,
Dave