Fellow collectors,

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to have purchased several Political type daggers, SS, SA and NSKK, and naturally I have noticed the obvious better quality fit of early made pieces compared to the later produced RZM variety. That said, one particular issue has long bothered me.

I have noticed that on later produced 1936 pattern chained SS daggers, with unmarked blades, there can often be a wooden grip that is outrageously too large for the upper and lower guards.

Please see attached some photos of one of my own daggers, a ’36 pattern with type B2 chain assembly, (R. Siegert), otherwise known as Type 2, (T. Wittmann).

I show as comparison the grip of an early SS dagger with faultless fitting. The wood and the metal line up perfectly.

You will hopefully see from the photos of the 1936 pattern, that the black wooden grip was carved far too large for the upper and lower guards, and so it protrudes by a few millimetres either side. Frankly I have been concerned about this for quite some time, wondering if my dagger was original or not. However, I have also noticed this feature on other daggers of this specific type and vintage. It is also evident when one looks through the literature on the subject, or browses the online shops of respected dealers of Third Reich daggers.

My first question, which I hope is unnecessary, is: Is this overly large grip any cause for concern when it comes to authenticity?

Second question: If these oversized grips are completely original, why did the manufacturer of these daggers make such a mistake on the grip size? Before anyone says that later in the period things got sloppy, I would point out that I have looked at several very late period RZM daggers where the grips and guards still match perfectly, even when the quality of the wood and other materials has diminished. For example see this RZM NSKK dagger made in 1942. It might be lacking in quality materials, but the workmanship and fitting is still spot on.

I have only noticed the oversized grips on 1936 Chained SS daggers. Not on late SA or NSKK daggers. That begs the question whether there was some experiment with production methods on this particular type – with parts made in various places and then assembled by a separate entity. Do SS dagger collectors have any views on which firm or firms manufactured the unmarked blades? Or who made the plated metal guards? Maybe the assemblers received all the parts ready made and so could not make any adjustments. An experiment with SS efficiency that went wrong!

Sorry for the length of this post. All opinions and musings most welcome!

Arminius

I must agree the grip on the M36 SS dagger here is oversized. I recently sold one (also with an early "Type II" chain) I owned for years and the grip fit very well. There could be several answers for the oversized grip. It could have swollen over the years, which I find doubtful. Some minor swelling might occur, but the one shown seems beyond what would be normally expected in that regard. It could have been replaced by the original owner, due to damage, or it could have been replaced postwar. Yours appears to be of earlier production with nickel-silver fittings and chain. Such examples, in my experience, have grips that fit well, if not always perfectly. I appreciate your concern. From what I can see in the photos, the dagger is original and not a reproduction. It does appear, however, the grip was probably replaced at some point. As you likely know, dagger grips are not always interchangeable to fit and look correctly. I certainly haven't seen it all and opinions might and will differ on grip fitment on these daggers, but, to my eye, the grip probably is not original to the dagger. I wish I could reach a different conclusion.

Thank you Grumpy.

I have seen at least three other M36 daggers with these grips that are too large.

Also looking on the websites of Paul at Lakesidetrader, Tom Wittmann and Johnson, I see from time to time other M36 SS daggers that have these oversized grips. It is very weird, as I wouldn't have thought that this would have passed muster in the period, especially as SA RZM daggers of the same vintage are better worked!

The M36 dagger pictured I purchased from a dealer who swore that he bought it from the vet's widow. Even gave me the name and details.

I would dearly love to know if other collectors have experienced this before and what the general feeling is. There is nothing worse than living with some niggling doubt about the integrity of a dagger!!

It could be the larger grips are fairly common. Of course, neither I, nor anyone else, has seen all M36 daggers. Honestly, I have not seen one in person or advertised with an oversize grip, but that doesn't mean they can't be original to the daggers they are on. Nor, was I paying close attention to the grips. The SS and the dagger makers seem to have exercised pretty stringent quality control measures, especially in the early years. That and seeing and owning a number of SS and other daggers over the years with well fitting grips makes me wonder about the anomaly of oversize grips. Years ago, out of curiosity, I tried to fit grips on cross guards of different makers. I was surprised to find most were not interchangeable. As I understand it, each grip was hand fitted to each dagger on the assembly line. Possibly, if a maker ran short of grips and was forced to use those from an outside supplier, there could be a fitment problem.

Thanks Grumpy, that does make a lot of sense. I can see how manuafacturers would use what ever stock was available during the war. This particular example has all plated surfaces, and is probably quite a late example. The grip eagle is copper I think.

Do no collectors or members of this forum have any oppinions on this subject?

I've seen them before. Not very common, but definitely real.

I never had any thoughts that they were fakes or that grips were switched at some time. Just another small dagger mystery. With no names on the blades, it is impossible to track whether it was one dagger manufacturer or more.

Dave

Thank you Dave. There are indeed many dagger mysteries in this hobby. I'm curious as to whether any other collectors on this forum have similar large size grips on m36 SS daggers.

I've had one for 40 years and have wondered myself.
Tom W. said after holding it in his hands it's a known variation but unknown why.

There is also a known variation SA dagger that has no maker mark on the blade and the cross guards look to be about 10% larger than normal. Fit between the grip and "big" cross guards is normal. Mine is on a NSKK chain. Again, TW says he knows of several that way.

Here is a late 3rd production series (so-called Type I) with zinc fittings and an oversize grip. With Tom Wittmann's book having a few RZM period Eickhorn M 1933's with high shouldered grips - my assumption being that with the quality in the fitting together of the parts virtually perfect that being slightly oversize in the RZM period must not have been that important. Best Regards, Fred

Thanks Fred for sharing that pic. It's interesting to see that these are out there.