Here's an SS dagger that I picked up for a friend of mine at the last Max show. Needless to say that he was " over the moon " with this beauty.
I also thought that it was cool to photograph the dagger in plain black and white, it gives it a more of a " retro " style.

Scabbard has about 99% full lacquer and I would rate the blain as close to mint.

Thanks for watching.

stunning example!!!

Nice catch

cheers

Looks pretty cool,Pat.Looks a bit more from period.

Gerd

Great pictures Pat!

I believe this dagger to be totally and cleverly zipped. Offered by a big dealer last summer for $6500......... then dropped to $5500........... when the problems were shown it was sold to another dealer cheap. Finally selling cheap at the MAX and dumped on a table with 20 other pieces in a pile. Just my opinion as I'm doing some further research.

I passed on the dagger long before it sold, and a whole swarm of Russians did too.

Here we go again, JR at its best !

I hope that you're not doing this out of jealousy JR ? It would be really sad.

I had the dagger fully inspected by 2 top dealers/experts at the show and they both gave their thumbs up.
Yourself even said nothing about it when you had it in your hands and never express any of these doubts at the show. Of course, it could be a world wide dealer conspiracy but I doubt it.

You have been doing your research on this dagger for two months now, looking impatiently to your findings.

I also have some knowledge on the subject and I don't see anything wrong.

I seriously hope that you will have your arguments ready to support your " free criticisms " or just loose face.

You've also claim some " flaws " at an EPack SS dagger that I had bought at the Max 3 years ago but again, you had nothing to sustain your criticisms.

The EPack was a real beauty but $ 1000 less than the one you offered me a month prior to that ..... good for me.

Let's see the facts and let's stop the rambling.

BTW, the dagger was bought from one of the most knowledgeable dealer/expert in the world.
Joseph Penkowski !
You better have good arguments mate but you know what ?
Nothing will come out, we've heard that tune over and over again.

JR claims that the blade has been repolished and recrossgrained, any thoughts ?

I feel totally secure that it wasn't messed with, it looks identical to all of my other Klaas blades.

BTW, no Russians ever saw the dagger before I did, it was hidden under a large pile of SA's and it was 11 AM on dealer's day set up, half the dealers were not even set up yet when I bought it.

Where you really standing beside the table and counting every Russians passing by this dagger at 11 AM ?

I hope you realise the non sense of your comments.

The dagger when I first saw it and was contemplating purchasing it (at $6500), had a vertical hanger on it. The vertical was photographed off of the scabbard as well as on, and it was easy to see from the lack of wear patterns, that it was added to the scabbard and not part of the unit.

This morning I asked the dealer that had this dagger on consignment initially, if he still had his photos of it. He said after he returned the dagger to the consignor, he deleted the photos of it. The consignor then sold the dagger to another dealer quite cheaply and the reason that you bought it cheap. That should had been the 1st ding dong to go off in your head.

I had the dagger in my hands before you were even at the show and it was in the mosh pit of other blades that the Russians were mauling over and wouldn't let anyone near.

Patrice, I wish you no hard feeling but only have spoken what I know on this dagger. I'll be the first to admit when it comes to used Toyota's you've got me beat hands down. But when it comes to SS daggers................... I don't need any ex purts to kiss and bless any of mine. :))))))))))))))))))))))

I will post high resolution colored pictures later on and we will see if the blade has been repolished and recrossgrained.
It should be an easy matter for any "expert eye" to see such obvious flaws.

Talk to you later folks.

It looks to me that of it was polished and crossgrained, there would be evidence of that in the TM and motto. Could be the lighting, etc., but I don't detect any sign of that.

Comments are most welcomed.

Does the blade has been repolished and recrossgrained ????

Thank you

By the way, the runner marks were also added afterwards in order to make it more convincing once the repolishing and recrossgraning were done.

The dealer emailed me to confirm that Joe Joe ended up with the dagger after the tuning was exposed. I now have the photos of the dagger and will post them when I get home.

I too would like to know who tuned up the blade as it was professionally done.

At the show, I contemplated purchasing the dagger because really the sum of the parts were definitely worth the price that was being asked for it. And it will make a nice display for someone not wanting to break the bank on buying an expensive 33. So really Patrice you came out just fine in that regard.

I've seen blades that have been whizzed (zipped?) and re-crossgrained. Nothing that I see in these photos suggest that was done here.

If you think about it rationally, what is the reason that blades are tuned up to begin with? Usually because some bad pitting, staining or other such damage has taken place. Nothing on this blade indicates anything like that was ever present. In addition, the condition of the blade is consistent with rest of the dagger and scabbard. Also, there are small areas near the lower crossguard and in the motto that show some light pitting and staining. Why weren't these cleaned up if the blade was fooled with?

Perhaps the blade itself is a complete reproduction.. I don't know. Would a dagger like this really sell for 3700 or there about at the MAX?

The price went from 6500 being consigned to another dealer for about 3k

I now have the photos of the dagger and will post them when I get home. [/quote]JR

Stop the BS and post the damned pictures once and for all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Relax, have a beer, light up a stogie, and lighten up. I'm at work and can't post the photos with an iPhone.

Wow, if that blade has been re-polished and had cross graining added then it is a spectacular job...I don't get the comments about the Russians..no offence but they are Johnny come latelys to this hobby and they purchase, for the most part purely for profit.I have personally seen many of them at the Max and SOS purchase many a repro...not impressed...I would be interested to hear what Paul and Gailen have to say in regards to the blade. One would have to examine in hand due to the dispersions cast, no offence JR as your collection and knowledge are beyond reproach, but Pat is no slouch either, with daggers or Toyotas...I like it, for what it is worth, from what I see...I once saw many dealers go google eyes over a certain SS degen, it did not belong to me but I knew for a fact that the handle had been added to a Police officer's Degen...sometimes only one person knows the "true history" and everything else, in the absence of concrete proof is mere conjecture cheers, Ryan

IF blades can be restored to look like this, then I'm going to start buying some beater daggers to send in for a refurb job. It looks good to me, in these pictures at least.

I only wish I could have seen this one 'In Hand' at the show as by the photos I can't see anything wrong with it.
But then again I ask why would Joe P. sell a screamer like this for $3,700 ? The market is not that soft.

-serge-

This was the dagger as it was offered this last May, just as I described and stated, with the vertical hanger. It was $6500.00

Within a months time the price had dropped to $5500.00

When the MAX came around at the end of September, a different dealer was now offering the dagger for $3800.00

I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, but it is starting to fit together.

JR

additional

I must be missing something here, it looks absolutely fine to me

JR,you sure that is the same dagger??? The Blades look totally different...I see nothing wrong with Pats dagger

Sepp

It certainly looks like the same dagger

To my eye this is not the same grip. Everyone is looking at the blade. Look at the grip inserts in Pat's dagger and you will see damage along the edge of the runes and the eagle wing. From the photos I see, the damage is not the same, nor is the grip.

That being said, if someone is able to take the blade JR shows, and turn it into the blade Pat shows, I want his name to work on my daggers.

This is the same dagger. There is a small chip on the grip where it meets the lower rear crossguard. Also the same dent/chip on the upper right portion of the grip where it meets the crossguard. These appear in both sets of photos. Also there are identical scratches on the blade. I still don't think the blade has been messed with. As for the price... $3800 is not chicken feed. Not too many collectors are going to pay $6500 for an M33 anyway. JR... perhaps you're just pissed because you missed a "bargain"?

I see the same dagger ...
the pictures are taken in a different light set up..
I am posting a pic of my dagger taken in the same position but with different lighting..


Here you can see how the etching goes from grey to black.
also notice some runner lines come to life on the lower picture that was not present on the first one

No.................had several opportunities to buy this dagger and pass on every one of them.

Absolutely not true, whatsoever.

First of all, both daggers are the same.
The pictures that JR got for the dagger were taken from Kris Anderson's web site
http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/1207so1.html

I've spoken with Kris over the phone a minute ago and I now know the whole story.

All I will say for now is, " JR, just back off or you will get hurt " !

You are just a pathetic jealous individual.

I feel somewhat sorry for you and hope you will take a look at yourself in the mirror Sir.

And by the way, the dagger is 100% original and untouched, just like everyone thought it was like.

Well, whatever it, is, it's a beauty. If the blade has been refinished, it is a masterful job. Somebody could make a bundle restoring blades, if that is the case. I still can see no evidence on the TM and the motto of polishing or added crossgrain. As prominent as the graining is on Pat's dagger, you can almost guarantee there would be at least some sign of "dragging" around the etching somewhere. I just don't see it. The etching appears to be crisp throughout.

From the latest pics,shown by JR,i assume that the blade has been re-grained.

Gerd

Don't know what you're seeing but there is no evidence here of anything but original crossgrain.

Do you think this one is also re-grained?

Patrice and all, this will be my last post on the topic and that will be it for me.

I saw this dagger for sale in May and thought about buying it asking for additional photos. The dagger was reduced from $6500 to $5500 in about a months time, and still it didn't sell. I asked for additional detailed photos of the blade. When I didn't get them, I thought that there would be a chance that I would get a chance to see the dagger at the MAX.

At the MAX, the dealer that had this consigned initially apologized for not getting back to me with the blade photos. He explained that he no longer had it consigned, was shown some challenges that the dagger had, and gave it back to the consignor. "Some questions on the blade were raised," and those were the dealers words to me at the show.

Later I saw this Klaas on another dealers table in a pile of daggers. I didn't realize at the moment that it was the same dagger being consigned initially. Still I passed on the dagger at $3800 with Gary Southgate standing right next to me, as we were walking the show together.

Patrice later stops us to show the Klaas. Old news, we already saw it and inspected it earlier. I also told Patrice that.

The dagger bothered me for 2 weeks after the show before it dawned on me that the dagger that Patrice purchased was the same piece that was being consigned 3 months earlier. I emailed Patrice to pass on what I had heard and express that I had concern with the blade. He said nonsense and had the piece kissed by dealer. Fine, I dropped it. He's happy, it's his, I didn't want it, case closed.

When Patrice posted the topic the other day, again I very gently raised some concern over why the dagger was pulled from consignment, and sold dirt cheap. From $6500 now we're down to $3800. Why ???

Patrice unloads on me here on the topic. Calls me everything but a child of god. I express my views, relayed what the dealer had told me on pulling the piece, and calmly stated that.

Patrice called B.S and that I couldn't produce the photos of the dagger and everything that I stated was B.S too. Well I produced the photos. I said that it was offered with a vertical when initially listed. I said that I saw the dagger at the MAX long before Patrice ever came in the door. And have relayed the info that I had on what I knew about the dagger from my prospective.

The consigning dealer pulled the dagger. It was sold cheap at the MAX compared to the $6500 price that it started out at. The selling dealer no doubt bought it even much cheaper than the $3800 that he had it tagged for.

With that, I think that well all have to wonder why? What happened here to basically whole sale this piece out?

I tried to help you Patrice, but obviously you never saw it that way. With that, my last word on the subject.

There is a big difference between what a dealer wants and what the seller actually desired.
There are reasons why the price went down, it just didn't sell at $ 5500 USD on the dealer's web site and you don't know what the consignee wanted from Joe Penkowsky.
I bought another SS dagger from Joe 2 years ago at the Max and I was suspicious as it was way cheap.
The dagger was fine and I immediately resold it to Paul Hogle ( at a profit may I say ) and it immedialtely sold on his web site. The dagger was perfectly fine also.

It doesn't mean because you are getting a good deal that the artifact is questionnable, does it ?

You are only angry because you didn't get it in the first place.
You were supposed to buy that dagger but lost sight of it after the consignee pulled the dagger out from Kris's web site.
You then realised after the Max ( 2 weeks later ), that I had bought the exact same dagger that you wanted to buy in the first place. Funny coincidence but it is a small world out there.
You perfectly know that the dagger is fine and untouched but as usual, you enjoy discrediting other people's artifacts. You've done it with me and with many others.
Don't know if you need all that BS for your own personal ego but you are a small person in every sense of the word. Please, don't insult me by claiming that you are trying to help, we don't believe you Sir, we know you.

Here what you said after getting involved in the SS ring fraud 2 years ago " I'm leaving the hobby,
I sold most of everything, I've lost the love for it, I'll still come to the shows to visit my friends ". I can reply one thing ............... JUST DO IT !

By the way, you still haven't given any proof that the blade was retouched and if I can count right, everyone is in favor that the blade is fine ........... except you Sir, but hey, we don't have your experience and we are no Guru.

What a laugh !

Got some news from Joe Pankowsky and here what he says.


" Joe stated unequivocally that the blade had not been buffed, polished or re-crossgrained. That only some scratches were present.

Joe further informed me that if I , or any other buyer, would want to return the dagger for a refund he would be more than happy to do so as he is that confident in the piece ".

I really don't know what is going on here...all I ask is can anyone, JR or anyone else please help me to understand how one polishes a blade or enhances crossgraining without affecting either the motto or trademark? Please?????? How is that possible to the extent alledged here...?? I have seen many restored, repolished and re crossgrained blades and in every single case it was very obvious. I do not see that on any pictures posted here, either by JR or Patrice. It is easy to remove much of the runner marks and spotting, greying etc with some old fashioned elbow grease and to my mind that is perfectly ok and does not affect the originality of the blade. cheers, Ryan

Ryan... easy answer... you can't.

WOW!~ I see no repolish here. Even if JR is right, why would someone repolish the blade and then sell it for a lesser price? Makes no sense to me.
Barring any questions, why doesn't Pat ask Joe P. for his money back? I am sure Joe will be glad to buy it back with all this publicity and someone on the forum will be more than happy to give Joe a profit. Joe is well known to be a straight dealer and will always turn a piece rather than hold out for the top dollar.
The parts will be worth more than the whole piece if we believe it to be contaminated by refurb as some state here.

Wow, Everyone thinks JR is some kind of SS expert, Well guess what I sold a parts dagger to him some years ago and his reply was thanks for the awesome dagger! And I know it was a parts dagger because I made the dagger.

Ron... perhaps you should read Pat's post above...

Regardless of what anyone thinks of JR, I would hope that you informed him that you sold him a parts dagger. Otherwise, you are just another lowlife here.

Ron, Pat is quite happy with the dagger, as he should be...Reds...I agree with Skyline Drive, not disclosing a parts dagger is wrong and to gloat about it is worse. JR has contributed much to this forum, regardless of this "blip" no "expert" self proclaimed or otherwise would be able to detect a perfectly assembled parts dagger. I have no issue with them, whether assembled wartime, post war or a Heer with a replaced handle or blade. Some fellows are purists however and it is up to individual taste...some guys don't collect or want anything that has been "enhanced" regards, Ryan

The most energy seen on the SS forum in many months. Even got this old boy's blood going. Gary

I have known Pat since he started collecting daggers. He studied daggers and did his homework. If I had any doubts about a dagger, I would check with him. I see no problem with this SS dagger.

Yes welcome back JR (said in fun and no disrespect to anyone intended)

Me Too ! ! I want to know who is that Wizard who does these screamer 'zipps'. Can he can do a 'zipps' on my Klaas? I'll put in the order that I want it 'zipped' to 'Patrice Quality'.




-but then there maybe too many zipped Klaas SS daggers on the market...I think I may keep her like she is...for the fanatic.

Pat, I hope you don't mind me adding a touch of humor in here.

-Serge-

Serge, call it crazy but I see as much beauty in that been there dagger as a mint example. jmo

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your many messages of support in this non sense saga. This is what happen when someone is acting out from greed and jealousy.

I sincerely hope that JR will learn a lesson from all this.

No hard feelings but we will never be having a beer together.

Case closed for me.

This has been interesting to watch and I have stayed out of it until now.

I do think it is the same dagger from the various small scratches and marks on both and it is in top shape. I don't see obvious signs of anything except maybe a coat of rennwax on the grip. I don't see that the blade needed any upgrading looking at the original photos.

It seems that the argument in favor of the blade being zipped* rest ONLY on a price reduction on the dagger from $6500 to $5500 then to an eventual sale price of $3800. No "before vs after" pictures showing blade changes are offered. I see the same blade photographed under different light by different photographers. Nor, despite prompting by knowledgeable men like Serge, has any explanation been offered of how such a feat could be accomplished.

Great condition agreed but $6500 or $5500 was too much for a Klass. $4500 would be my guess of top retail by a knowledgeable buyer. $3800 was a bargain. I would have bought it had I seen it.

So, JR, if you have proof of monkeying with the blade, please show us. Until then, a bargain price is not proof of of chicanery.

Regards, Dave

* What does zipped mean?

JR ?

Dave is right about a good price not necessarily bringing into question an item's authenticity. Most of us are aware of the "sucker price" routine and the age-old saying, "If it's too good to be true, it probably is." Neither should be ignored and, certainly, a bit of extra scrutiny is called for when a bargain is found. But, bargains do exist for a variety of reasons, especially in today's market. The key is to know your stuff and, if possible, your seller. A return privilege is comforting, but being knowledgeable and confident can save a ton of time, heartburn and, maybe, money.

looks like a lovely dagger to me.Why it ended up in a stack of daggers and well below its value, who knows? But it is strange.
The tone of the thread is a bit wrong, JR has always been top notch towards me, and I know others.
Dave- I don't think JR will reply, he did say it was his final word on it after all. Probably worried it turned in to more of a slanging match and that can lead to worse problems....

Sorry for my late reply,Mike.
I never doubt on the entire dagger!The main concern was the pic i've shown.The cross grain looks a bit too rough/ raw,to me.Also the center ridge. But it could also the light or angle of the pic.
And No,i don't think your one is re-grained.

Best Regards,
Gerd