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Posted By: Lost Dutchman SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 05:03 PM









Posted By: Lost Dutchman Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 05:03 PM

Posted By: zorro Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 05:53 PM
It looks awfully good for being a fake.What is the big give away IYO? PM me if you don't want to publish it.
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 06:06 PM
No access to Photoshop at the moment for enlargements and I'm on my way out. But it looks to me like the "etching" might not be etching but a rotary (mechanical) engraving. So I'm thinking that the "Hühnlein - NSKK High Leader" daggers might be having some new 'competition' to be aware of in the future. FP
Posted By: A J Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 06:55 PM
Zorro as Fred says inscription looks like a dremel job compare to the bit of the etched trademark in the last picture
Lost dutchman is the person peddling the junk you have been showing in the last few days a private person or a dealer in your area? If its a dealer we need to know
Posted By: Lost Dutchman Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 07:23 PM
Originally Posted By: A J
Zorro as Fred says inscription looks like a dremel job compare to the bit of the etched trademark in the last picture
Lost dutchman is the person peddling the junk you have been showing in the last few days a private person or a dealer in your area? If its a dealer we need to know


It's not a dealer but rather a collector looking to liquidate who looks to have been whizzed.

I was also told that the Eickhorn was fake as well and done at the same time as the inscription.
Posted By: Grumpy Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 08:07 PM
All the info isn't in, but it looks like etching to me.
Posted By: Larry C Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/05/2012 08:24 PM
The dagger itself is not a fake in IMO but the etching and the (logo especially) is a carbon copy ( including the same smudging and characteristics ) as seen in Ralf Siegerts SS book pg 301.
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 12:03 AM
Let Me know where this aleged fake is being sold as I'm interested in it....
Posted By: Lost Dutchman Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 12:46 AM
It was for sale from a collector. It's not for sale by a dealer.
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 12:55 AM
How much?
Posted By: Lost Dutchman Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 02:08 AM
It's apparently being returned to an unnamed dealer for a refund.

I do know that the collector was in it for $10k plus.
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 02:25 AM
Dang, I had envisioned scoring a real Himmler for the price of a repo:)))
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 07:08 AM
I would imagine that the guys at the time that were buying up the "Krupp" daggers thought that they were getting bargains. With the "Krupp" daggers not the first rotary engraved examples that were specifically made for the TR collector's market - but perhaps one of the more instructive ones because there is no question that they are complete fakes versus altered originals. With the added benefit (IMO) being that they can demonstrate the technology used to those who may not be as well versed in some of the more technical aspects of general manufacturing.

With the first image a "Krupp" dagger which had the logo rotary engraved inside of an area cut by something like an ordinary end-mill. With the rest of the pictures from the dagger posted by the 'Lost Dutchman', where I think that the similarities should be fairly obvious to most guys who may have been undecided. But if not then I can always go over the ones posted here, and possibly some examples from other daggers if necessary. PS: The TM image did not really have enough pixels, so what is posted is my best effort with what I had. With the inscription darkening on the SS dagger posted IMO most likely a paint. FP


Attached picture 'Krupp'-rotary-engraving.jpg
Attached picture himmler10-GDC-copy.jpg
Attached picture himmler11-GDC-copy.jpg
Attached picture himmler12-GDC-copy.jpg
Attached picture himmler8-GDC-copy.jpg
Posted By: A J Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 02:43 PM
Sigfried B not sure what you mean about "carbon copy" of the one shown in Ralf's book on page301
definitely not the same dagger to my eyes and just because a dagger's in a book doesn't mean it is genuine Third Reich produced just look at some of the fantasy stuff Attwood had in his 1970's dagger book
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 03:54 PM
As Siegfried states, this dagger is most certainly shown in a full page lay out in Ralf's book on both pages, 300 and 301. There is no mistaking it. Thank you for pointing that out.
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 04:01 PM
So Fred, you're saying that without a doubt in you mind, that this dagger that started the topic is one of the " Rotary Club Repo's" that you so often talk about ?
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 04:07 PM
The Himmler dedication, lower crossguard and blade, is even shown on page 302 on a full page as well.
Posted By: lakesidetrader Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 06:19 PM
I have no problems with the dagger in question.
I believe it to be original.
Posted By: RFI Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 06:21 PM
There is no way this dagger is a rotary engraved dagger. This dagger is as "textbook" as they come!
Fred, can I respectfully ask how many daggers you own and have studied? Do you have a mentor in the hobby and who would he be? To my understanding you have either no, or very few daggers in your possession.
I look forward to your reply! These repetitive statements you make on artifacts that are original is damaging to the artifacts and history!
Talk soon,
Bob
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: JR
So Fred, you're saying that without a doubt in you mind, that this dagger that started the topic is one of the " Rotary Club Repo's" that you so often talk about ?

JR, What I said was that it seems to me in the images that there are some things that seem to be more consistent with that type of engraving rather than with acid etching. Which is usually where I ask for more, much closer images, and maybe some at different angles to kill the glare from the lighting. Which is was what was so interesting with the 'textbook' so called "Hühnlein" NSKK High Leader daggers because no further pictures were forthcoming after the topic of engraving was brought up. But eventually I did get some good high resolution shots that showed the individual cutter markings inside the characters. Which is what I was hoping we might see here as some kind of resolution of the matter (Ie: a clarification) with some different images that toned down the glare, because one of the problems in the past with paint in rotary engraved crossguards is that it obscures the freshness of the markings (and smoothes them out) in contrast with the rest of metal surface. Whereas a two step process on a blade with a black oxide over acid etching tends to be matt like the etching itself. Fred
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 07:32 PM
This Himmler is so easy to call without blowing up photos, photo shop, comparing rotary engraving or using any other distorted imaging techniques. It is basic Himmler Honor daggers 101. If you've never had a Himmler to inspect in close detail, a person wouldn't have a clue of what they are looking at. And if you have had a Himmler Honor dagger or several of them over the years,there is no doubt in a person's mind what they are viewing, be it on the internet, or in their hand.
Posted By: RFI Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 07:51 PM
In the helmet world, if this were a helmet, it would be called a "one-looker"! Fred, I know you truly want to help people which is admirable, but your comments on this dagger show your level of knowledge. It is very damaging to our hobby as a whole, please, please, stop these comments on items you have no knowledge on!
If you have well established knowledge on an item I am very happy to read it, but hypothesis on items you see for the first time is where the problem lies.
Best Wishes,
Bob
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 07:57 PM
Originally Posted By: JR
This Himmler is so easy to call without blowing up photos, photo shop, comparing rotary engraving or using any other distorted imaging techniques. It is basic Himmler Honor daggers 101. If you've never had a Himmler to inspect in close detail, a person wouldn't have a clue of what they are looking at. And if you have had a Himmler Honor dagger or several of them over the years,there is no doubt in a person's mind what they are viewing, be it on the internet, or in their hand.

JR, Ten years ago I would not have questioned the dagger. But in the last few years I've seen some really good examples of the rotary engraving of script that have caused me to be much more cautious, with the chain links another area where I think that even some of the "old hands" have occasionally gotten themselves in trouble. Fred
Posted By: kreta1961 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 08:14 PM
I'm not an Expert on inscription daggers,but after i've seen these new close ups pics and compared with my DB,
I don't see anything wrong with it.

Gerd
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 08:19 PM
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever.
Posted By: wes_143 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 08:55 PM
I think it looks ok to me, people love to trash our daggers and soon nobody will be posting pictures for everyone to judge. my Himmler is getting trashed over on the WRF forum they call it a monster with a postwar inscription and chain. it's not perfect but it is what it is. but people just love to steer you wrong.
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 08:58 PM
Wes, ***********************************

JR, I like the looks of the dagger too, but you need to choose different words to respond.

Dave
Posted By: wes_143 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 09:04 PM
agreed.
Posted By: lakesidetrader Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 09:14 PM
Fred Suggest you post one of your Himmlers and show us how it differs.
Posted By: wes_143 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 09:24 PM
every picture I got is too big and wont load, can I send the pictures to someone here to resize? it was shown here about 5 years ago or so.
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 09:26 PM
Originally Posted By: JR
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever ............... and now it's time for collectors to stand up.

Jr, I understand what you are saying. With what I was looking for at first was some better pictures for comparison. And what is happening overall now IMO is that some of the “pushback” is from those collectors who are tired of the legitimization of the actual trash which is what IMO is really polluting collecting and the collecting experience.

With some guys out there still protecting their “bottom line” by selling/promoting altered and/or fantasy items with the SS daggers just being one high profile aspect of the whole picture - with a long list of fakes in TR dagger collecting that collectors should at least be aware of.

So we now should all “stand up” for cast brass M 1936 SS chain links? Really?? Fred
Posted By: wes_143 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 09:45 PM
I got these two pictures to load.

Attached picture image_3%20DISASSEMBLED.jpg
Attached picture image_4%20DISASSEMBLED.jpg
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:09 PM
Wes, The entire dagger needs to be shown to assist in identification. Do you only just own the blade or complete dagger?
Posted By: ajax Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: JR
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever ............... and now it's time for collectors to stand up.

Jr, I understand what you are saying. With what I was looking for at first was some better pictures for comparison. And what is happening overall now IMO is that some of the “pushback” is from those collectors who are tired of the legitimization of the actual trash which is what IMO is really polluting collecting and the collecting experience.

With some guys out there still protecting their “bottom line” by selling/promoting altered and/or fantasy items with the SS daggers just being one high profile aspect of the whole picture - with a long list of fakes in TR dagger collecting that collectors should at least be aware of.

So we now should all “stand up” for cast brass M 1936 SS chain links? Really?? Fred


No, I am afraid that within the last two years maybe three your analysis and critiques have been more than questionable and whether you realize it or not you credibility has withered substantially. I don't own a Himmler but have handled many a dagger and that piece is a one looker. All your doing is damaging legitimate pieces in many cases with your criteria and somewhat long winded explanations and John Madden style picture play maps. It is time for collectors to stand up to this type of thing.

Jack
Posted By: wes_143 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:27 PM
I have the whole thing but cant load my other pictures, as I said it was shown here a few years back, it's not been well cared for in the past , but it's mine
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:40 PM
Send the photos to Paul or Bob, Wes. Either will help you out and probably post them if you like
Posted By: Grumpy Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:44 PM
The water in the hobby continues to be muddled. Micrometers, chemical testing, microscopic examinations, etc. Either it's "real" or it's not. This reminds me of the myth of a few years ago that all "smooth-tailed" Himmler's are fake. It gained some traction, until several knowledgeable collectors finally put an end to it. No doubt, some collectors have gotten out their Himmler's and Rohm's, too, to try to determine if the inscription is engraved. This kind of thing can lead to greatly devaluing some daggers. If this course is pursued, it should be done in an independent laboratory with daggers in hand, not through a handful of photos by amateurs.
Posted By: A J Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:56 PM
JR and Siegfried B I respect you both as good guys in this hobby and in my previous post I am not saying the dagger at the start of this thread ain't real but it definately to my eyes ain't the dagger on pages 301 and 302 in Ralf's book which is attributed to RK collection unfortunately there are four RKs in the acknowledgements so no idea who owned the dagger then.Pitting near himmler on one is to above and on the other to below the inscription.
Posted By: Larry C Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 10:59 PM
I like to know what happened to the 2 pc hanger that was shown in Ralfs book as that one is marked RZM over the M5/71 and over the OLC diamond,, compared to Lost Dutchmans example which has the DRGM logo only on the clip. Im still not convinced. I guess the only way to find out is if someone knows who R.K. is listed in Ralfs book as the owner and find out if he sold it?
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:00 PM
AJ, I'll take some photos out of the reference so a comparison can be made. Thanks for the idea.
Posted By: Larry C Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:00 PM
Sorry AJ,, you beat me to it! grin
Posted By: LARRY21556 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:03 PM
I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I do pay attention to them and look at any dagger I may have that is similar to what is being discussed. I have a Himmler and I looked at mine and I think Lost Dutchman has a good one.
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:03 PM
Siegfried I noticed the hanger difference as well. I have been sent some history on ownership too.
Posted By: Larry C Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:12 PM
If this is the same dagger,, than I am grossly mistaken in my comments and apologize to lost Dutchman. But lets dig it out for sure as I try not to shoot from the hip in my postings.
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:35 PM
Originally Posted By: ajax
No, I am afraid that within the last two years maybe three your analysis and critiques have been more than questionable and whether you realize it or not you credibility has withered substantially. I don't own a Himmler but have handled many a dagger and that piece is a one looker. All your doing is damaging legitimate pieces in many cases with your criteria and somewhat long winded explanations and John Madden style picture play maps. It is time for collectors to stand up to this type of thing. Jack

Jack, If my thoughts as regards the “Hühnlein” daggers, the brass M 1936 SS chain links, and a bunch more as postwar fakes is still in place then I can live with that because what I seemed to be seeing in the images was just that. My immediate impression of what seemed to be in them after trying to compensate for the glare. Fred
Posted By: RFI Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/06/2012 11:54 PM
Fred,
Again, I know your comments are meant to be helpful to people and that is admirable. If you do not have good enough pictures as you mentioned, just do not comment. Or, ask for better pictures to clarify your argument either for or against. Judging a piece as you have done many times without adequate pictures makes you look lousy to the guys that have done this for a while. At the same time the newer guys see your posts with charts and graphs. To them, they believe your stance which sometimes damages original pieces!
Still willing to buy you dinner at the Max and we can talk more!
Best Wishes,
Bob
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:15 PM
This set of photos using the dagger out of Ralf's SS dagger book compared to the set of photos that Dutchman posted, show the daggers to be one in the same. A period Himmler Honor dagger.

First the lacquer on the obverse of the lower scabbard.

Attached picture DH8.JPG
Attached picture DH9.JPG
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:17 PM
Grip pressure marks on the obverse toward the crossguard.

Attached picture DH10.JPG
Attached picture DH11.JPG
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:18 PM
The moisture mark on the reverse where the wood meets the crossguard

Attached picture DH12.JPG
Attached picture DH13.JPG
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:19 PM
The bench mark

Attached picture DH14.JPG
Attached picture DH15.JPG
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:20 PM
The Eickhorn logo

Attached picture DH16.JPG
Attached picture DH17.JPG
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:22 PM
Finally the Himmler signature

Attached picture DH18.JPG
Attached picture DH19.JPG
Posted By: kreta1961 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 05:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Siegfried B
I like to know what happened to the 2 pc hanger that was shown in Ralfs book as that one is marked RZM over the M5/71 and over the OLC diamond,, compared to Lost Dutchmans example which has the DRGM logo only on the clip. Im still not convinced. I guess the only way to find out is if someone knows who R.K. is listed in Ralfs book as the owner and find out if he sold it?


Well buddy

i can try to figure it out. wink
Posted By: A J Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 06:07 PM
I now conceed it does appear to be the same dagger thanks for the photo montage JR
Posted By: JR Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 06:37 PM
Hangers get switched out at times. Perhaps the Himmler didn't have one initially, and when it was sold, none given with it.
Posted By: E Rader Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/07/2012 10:47 PM
Really, why is this even being discussed????? If this is a "fake" How can I get one?????? I'll take 20

I have owned a NM example and handled at least 5 over the years, this one is REAL!
Posted By: Mac 66 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/08/2012 03:20 PM
I Agree that this Himmler inscription is Genuine,

Fred you need to stop over examining photos!!!

You done that with my hj knife dedication which looks exactly done the same way as this Himmler inscription, Acid Etched, Not Rotary Engraved!!



Regards Mac 66
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/08/2012 11:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Mac 66
I Agree that this Himmler inscription is Genuine,

Fred you need to stop over examining photos!!!

You done that with my hj knife dedication which looks exactly done the same way as this Himmler inscription, Acid Etched, Not Rotary Engraved!!

Regards Mac 66

Scott, It’s my intention to be as helpful as possible. But also realizing that sometimes a more prudent approach to the problem is better, that I should include caveats like the limitations of digital technology, bad lighting, etc. are factors that should be considered. And that opinions can be conditional depending on the amount of reasonably reliable data that is available. Also, that if available more photos are (or would be) requested to try and resolve questions as to what is really present - making a best effort to imitate what the human eye would see if an item was in hand. Such an approach would IMO be the least harmful to the item, and the best for especially some of the outside observers who are trying to learn more about a particular item.

But stop examining photos?? Are you serious? Because that is what the forums do every day which is to look at digital images. And ask opinions. The good, the bad, the ugly - but not by using the postage stamp size images that some dealers/others use to display what they are selling/asking about which are in most cases relatively useless. (With the “Hühnlein” daggers discussion IMO being just one example in the past of a number of discussions where a close look allowed readers to look at the evidence and make up their own minds, and who or what to believe.) And I know to a certainty that you were a participant in the recent “DJ” discussion. So are you saying that the closeups of the “Olympic” knives and some other things in that discussion had no value?

As for your HJ knife, in the blade images posted (understanding that there could be some physical limitations due to lighting and the fact that they are digital) IMO there are differences (on both sides?). But the thread has been pulled so there is no link to use, and I’m not going to do a comparison here if you don’t want it. Best Regards, Fred
Posted By: Ronald Weinand Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/09/2012 05:34 AM
Great job JR!!
Posted By: Mac 66 Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/09/2012 12:20 PM
Fred,

What i mean is "Over Examining" genuine items like this Himmler SS dagger when everybody knows its 100% genuine,

i know you will carry on & do great work in the future as you have done so in the past & i respect you for that, sometimes we all cant agree on these forums & its gets very frustrating so i,ll leave it at that because i dont want to fall out with you or anyone else,


Take it easy,


Regards Scott.
Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/09/2012 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Mac 66
Fred,

What i mean is "Over Examining" genuine items like this Himmler SS dagger when everybody knows its 100% genuine,

i know you will carry on & do great work in the future as you have done so in the past & i respect you for that, sometimes we all cant agree on these forums & its gets very frustrating so i,ll leave it at that because i dont want to fall out with you or anyone else,

Take it easy,

Regards Scott.

Scott, I understand your point which is well taken, and If this had been what looked to me like an untouched blade (or dagger) then from my perspective I think it would have just been a matter of trying to figure out why the lighting was making things look different. But then I saw what looked to me like evidence of at least a partial re-polishing in places, and that is what I think triggered a more critical appraisal. Which in retrospect placed too much emphasis on one set of images. Mea culpa. blush And not enough on the more distant pictures as a better overall representation. Best Regards, Fred
Posted By: STRADALE Re: SS Himmler with Fake etching. - 09/11/2012 01:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Ronald Weinand
Great job JR!!


JR is the man.
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