It looks awfully good for being a fake.What is the big give away IYO? PM me if you don't want to publish it.
No access to Photoshop at the moment for enlargements and I'm on my way out. But it looks to me like the "etching" might not be etching but a rotary (mechanical) engraving. So I'm thinking that the "Hühnlein - NSKK High Leader" daggers might be having some new 'competition' to be aware of in the future. FP
Zorro as Fred says inscription looks like a dremel job compare to the bit of the etched trademark in the last picture
Lost dutchman is the person peddling the junk you have been showing in the last few days a private person or a dealer in your area? If its a dealer we need to know
Zorro as Fred says inscription looks like a dremel job compare to the bit of the etched trademark in the last picture
Lost dutchman is the person peddling the junk you have been showing in the last few days a private person or a dealer in your area? If its a dealer we need to know
It's not a dealer but rather a collector looking to liquidate who looks to have been whizzed.
I was also told that the Eickhorn was fake as well and done at the same time as the inscription.
All the info isn't in, but it looks like etching to me.
The dagger itself is not a fake in IMO but the etching and the (logo especially) is a carbon copy ( including the same smudging and characteristics ) as seen in Ralf Siegerts SS book pg 301.
Let Me know where this aleged fake is being sold as I'm interested in it....
It was for sale from a collector. It's not for sale by a dealer.
It's apparently being returned to an unnamed dealer for a refund.
I do know that the collector was in it for $10k plus.
Dang, I had envisioned scoring a real Himmler for the price of a repo:)))
Sigfried B not sure what you mean about "carbon copy" of the one shown in Ralf's book on page301
definitely not the same dagger to my eyes and just because a dagger's in a book doesn't mean it is genuine Third Reich produced just look at some of the fantasy stuff Attwood had in his 1970's dagger book
As Siegfried states, this dagger is most certainly shown in a full page lay out in Ralf's book on both pages, 300 and 301. There is no mistaking it. Thank you for pointing that out.
So Fred, you're saying that without a doubt in you mind, that this dagger that started the topic is one of the " Rotary Club Repo's" that you so often talk about ?
The Himmler dedication, lower crossguard and blade, is even shown on page 302 on a full page as well.
I have no problems with the dagger in question.
I believe it to be original.
There is no way this dagger is a rotary engraved dagger. This dagger is as "textbook" as they come!
Fred, can I respectfully ask how many daggers you own and have studied? Do you have a mentor in the hobby and who would he be? To my understanding you have either no, or very few daggers in your possession.
I look forward to your reply! These repetitive statements you make on artifacts that are original is damaging to the artifacts and history!
Talk soon,
Bob
So Fred, you're saying that without a doubt in you mind, that this dagger that started the topic is one of the " Rotary Club Repo's" that you so often talk about ?
JR, What I said was that it seems to me in the images that there are some things that seem to be more consistent with that type of engraving rather than with acid etching. Which is usually where I ask for more, much closer images, and maybe some at different angles to kill the glare from the lighting. Which is was what was so interesting with the
'textbook' so called
"Hühnlein" NSKK High Leader daggers because no further pictures were forthcoming after the topic of engraving was brought up. But eventually I did get some good high resolution shots that showed the individual cutter markings inside the characters. Which is what I was hoping we might see here as some kind of resolution of the matter (Ie: a clarification) with some different images that toned down the glare, because one of the problems in the past with paint in rotary engraved crossguards is that it obscures the freshness of the markings (and smoothes them out) in contrast with the rest of metal surface. Whereas a two step process on a blade with a black oxide over acid etching tends to be matt like the etching itself. Fred
This Himmler is so easy to call without blowing up photos, photo shop, comparing rotary engraving or using any other distorted imaging techniques. It is basic Himmler Honor daggers 101. If you've never had a Himmler to inspect in close detail, a person wouldn't have a clue of what they are looking at. And if you have had a Himmler Honor dagger or several of them over the years,there is no doubt in a person's mind what they are viewing, be it on the internet, or in their hand.
In the helmet world, if this were a helmet, it would be called a "one-looker"! Fred, I know you truly want to help people which is admirable, but your comments on this dagger show your level of knowledge. It is very damaging to our hobby as a whole, please, please, stop these comments on items you have no knowledge on!
If you have well established knowledge on an item I am very happy to read it, but hypothesis on items you see for the first time is where the problem lies.
Best Wishes,
Bob
This Himmler is so easy to call without blowing up photos, photo shop, comparing rotary engraving or using any other distorted imaging techniques. It is basic Himmler Honor daggers 101. If you've never had a Himmler to inspect in close detail, a person wouldn't have a clue of what they are looking at. And if you have had a Himmler Honor dagger or several of them over the years,there is no doubt in a person's mind what they are viewing, be it on the internet, or in their hand.
JR, Ten years ago I would not have questioned the dagger. But in the last few years I've seen some really good examples of the rotary engraving of script that have caused me to be much more cautious, with the chain links another area where I think that even some of the "old hands" have occasionally gotten themselves in trouble. Fred
I'm not an Expert on inscription daggers,but after i've seen these new close ups pics and compared with my DB,
I don't see anything wrong with it.
Gerd
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever.
I think it looks ok to me, people love to trash our daggers and soon nobody will be posting pictures for everyone to judge. my Himmler is getting trashed over on the WRF forum they call it a monster with a postwar inscription and chain. it's not perfect but it is what it is. but people just love to steer you wrong.
Wes, ***********************************
JR, I like the looks of the dagger too, but you need to choose different words to respond.
Dave
Fred Suggest you post one of your Himmlers and show us how it differs.
every picture I got is too big and wont load, can I send the pictures to someone here to resize? it was shown here about 5 years ago or so.
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever ............... and now it's time for collectors to stand up.
Jr, I understand what you are saying. With what I was looking for at first was some better pictures for comparison. And what is happening overall now IMO is that some of the “pushback” is from those collectors who are tired of the legitimization of the actual trash which is what IMO is really polluting collecting and the collecting experience.
With some guys out there still protecting their “bottom line” by selling/promoting altered and/or fantasy items with the SS daggers just being one high profile aspect of the whole picture - with a long list of fakes in TR dagger collecting that collectors should at least be aware of.
So we now should all
“stand up” for cast brass M 1936 SS chain links?
Really?? Fred
I got these two pictures to load.
Wes, The entire dagger needs to be shown to assist in identification. Do you only just own the blade or complete dagger?
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever ............... and now it's time for collectors to stand up.
Jr, I understand what you are saying. With what I was looking for at first was some better pictures for comparison. And what is happening overall now IMO is that some of the “pushback” is from those collectors who are tired of the legitimization of the actual trash which is what IMO is really polluting collecting and the collecting experience.
With some guys out there still protecting their “bottom line” by selling/promoting altered and/or fantasy items with the SS daggers just being one high profile aspect of the whole picture - with a long list of fakes in TR dagger collecting that collectors should at least be aware of.
So we now should all
“stand up” for cast brass M 1936 SS chain links?
Really?? Fred
No, I am afraid that within the last two years maybe three your analysis and critiques have been more than questionable and whether you realize it or not you credibility has withered substantially. I don't own a Himmler but have handled many a dagger and that piece is a one looker. All your doing is damaging legitimate pieces in many cases with your criteria and somewhat long winded explanations and John Madden style picture play maps. It is time for collectors to stand up to this type of thing.
Jack
I have the whole thing but cant load my other pictures, as I said it was shown here a few years back, it's not been well cared for in the past , but it's mine
Send the photos to Paul or Bob, Wes. Either will help you out and probably post them if you like
The water in the hobby continues to be muddled. Micrometers, chemical testing, microscopic examinations, etc. Either it's "real" or it's not. This reminds me of the myth of a few years ago that all "smooth-tailed" Himmler's are fake. It gained some traction, until several knowledgeable collectors finally put an end to it. No doubt, some collectors have gotten out their Himmler's and Rohm's, too, to try to determine if the inscription is engraved. This kind of thing can lead to greatly devaluing some daggers. If this course is pursued, it should be done in an independent laboratory with daggers in hand, not through a handful of photos by amateurs.
JR and Siegfried B I respect you both as good guys in this hobby and in my previous post I am not saying the dagger at the start of this thread ain't real but it definately to my eyes ain't the dagger on pages 301 and 302 in Ralf's book which is attributed to RK collection unfortunately there are four RKs in the acknowledgements so no idea who owned the dagger then.Pitting near himmler on one is to above and on the other to below the inscription.
I like to know what happened to the 2 pc hanger that was shown in Ralfs book as that one is marked RZM over the M5/71 and over the OLC diamond,, compared to Lost Dutchmans example which has the DRGM logo only on the clip. Im still not convinced. I guess the only way to find out is if someone knows who R.K. is listed in Ralfs book as the owner and find out if he sold it?
AJ, I'll take some photos out of the reference so a comparison can be made. Thanks for the idea.
Sorry AJ,, you beat me to it!
I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I do pay attention to them and look at any dagger I may have that is similar to what is being discussed. I have a Himmler and I looked at mine and I think Lost Dutchman has a good one.
Siegfried I noticed the hanger difference as well. I have been sent some history on ownership too.
If this is the same dagger,, than I am grossly mistaken in my comments and apologize to lost Dutchman. But lets dig it out for sure as I try not to shoot from the hip in my postings.
No, I am afraid that within the last two years maybe three your analysis and critiques have been more than questionable and whether you realize it or not you credibility has withered substantially. I don't own a Himmler but have handled many a dagger and that piece is a one looker. All your doing is damaging legitimate pieces in many cases with your criteria and somewhat long winded explanations and John Madden style picture play maps. It is time for collectors to stand up to this type of thing. Jack
Jack, If my thoughts as regards the “Hühnlein” daggers, the brass M 1936 SS chain links, and a bunch more as postwar fakes is still in place then I can live with that because what I seemed to be seeing in the images was just that. My immediate impression of what seemed to be in them after trying to compensate for the glare. Fred
Fred,
Again, I know your comments are meant to be helpful to people and that is admirable. If you do not have good enough pictures as you mentioned, just do not comment. Or, ask for better pictures to clarify your argument either for or against. Judging a piece as you have done many times without adequate pictures makes you look lousy to the guys that have done this for a while. At the same time the newer guys see your posts with charts and graphs. To them, they believe your stance which sometimes damages original pieces!
Still willing to buy you dinner at the Max and we can talk more!
Best Wishes,
Bob
This set of photos using the dagger out of Ralf's SS dagger book compared to the set of photos that Dutchman posted, show the daggers to be one in the same. A period Himmler Honor dagger.
First the lacquer on the obverse of the lower scabbard.
Grip pressure marks on the obverse toward the crossguard.
The moisture mark on the reverse where the wood meets the crossguard
The bench mark
The Eickhorn logo
Finally the Himmler signature
I like to know what happened to the 2 pc hanger that was shown in Ralfs book as that one is marked RZM over the M5/71 and over the OLC diamond,, compared to Lost Dutchmans example which has the DRGM logo only on the clip. Im still not convinced. I guess the only way to find out is if someone knows who R.K. is listed in Ralfs book as the owner and find out if he sold it?
Well buddy
i can try to figure it out.
I now conceed it does appear to be the same dagger thanks for the photo montage JR
Hangers get switched out at times. Perhaps the Himmler didn't have one initially, and when it was sold, none given with it.
Really, why is this even being discussed????? If this is a "fake" How can I get one?????? I'll take 20
I have owned a NM example and handled at least 5 over the years, this one is REAL!
I Agree that this Himmler inscription is Genuine,
Fred you need to stop over examining photos!!!
You done that with my hj knife dedication which looks exactly done the same way as this Himmler inscription, Acid Etched, Not Rotary Engraved!!
Regards Mac 66
I Agree that this Himmler inscription is Genuine,
Fred you need to stop over examining photos!!!
You done that with my hj knife dedication which looks exactly done the same way as this Himmler inscription, Acid Etched, Not Rotary Engraved!!
Regards Mac 66
Scott, It’s my intention to be as helpful as possible. But also realizing that sometimes a more prudent approach to the problem is better, that I should include caveats like the limitations of digital technology, bad lighting, etc. are factors that should be considered. And that opinions can be conditional depending on the amount of reasonably reliable data that is available. Also, that if available more photos are (or would be) requested to try and resolve questions as to what is really present - making a best effort to imitate what the human eye would see if an item was in hand. Such an approach would IMO be the least harmful to the item, and the best for especially some of the outside observers who are trying to learn more about a particular item.
But stop examining photos?? Are you serious? Because that is what the forums do every day which is to look at digital images. And ask opinions. The good, the bad, the ugly - but
not by using the postage stamp size images that some dealers/others use to display what they are selling/asking about which are in most cases relatively useless. (With the “Hühnlein” daggers discussion IMO being just one example in the past of a number of discussions where a close look allowed readers to look at the evidence and make up their own minds, and who or what to believe.) And I know to a certainty that you were a participant in the recent “DJ” discussion. So are you saying that the closeups of the “Olympic” knives and some other things in that discussion had no value?
As for your HJ knife, in the blade images posted (understanding that there could be some physical limitations due to lighting and the fact that they are digital) IMO there are differences (on both sides?). But the thread has been pulled so there is no link to use, and I’m not going to do a comparison here if you don’t want it. Best Regards, Fred
Fred,
What i mean is "Over Examining" genuine items like this Himmler SS dagger when everybody knows its 100% genuine,
i know you will carry on & do great work in the future as you have done so in the past & i respect you for that, sometimes we all cant agree on these forums & its gets very frustrating so i,ll leave it at that because i dont want to fall out with you or anyone else,
Take it easy,
Regards Scott.
Fred,
What i mean is "Over Examining" genuine items like this Himmler SS dagger when everybody knows its 100% genuine,
i know you will carry on & do great work in the future as you have done so in the past & i respect you for that, sometimes we all cant agree on these forums & its gets very frustrating so i,ll leave it at that because i dont want to fall out with you or anyone else,
Take it easy,
Regards Scott.
Scott, I understand your point which is well taken, and If this had been what looked to me like an untouched blade (or dagger) then from my perspective I think it would have just been a matter of trying to figure out why the lighting was making things look different. But then I saw what looked to me like evidence of at least a partial re-polishing in places, and that is what I think triggered a more critical appraisal. Which in retrospect placed too much emphasis on one set of images. Mea culpa.
And not enough on the more distant pictures as a better overall representation. Best Regards, Fred