HERES A SAMPLE PIC IF YOU AREN'T ON THE OTHER FORUM

Very rare for this maker.

Do us a favor and post pictures here if you think it is interesting. That way, all can see them.

Many thanks
Dave

thanks grumpy. I think it's one of less than a handful know.

dave: resized pix tomorrow but first must see if I can finally banish this blasted cold! cheers, dw

SOME PIX

MORE

LAST

Typical pommel cap for these. Don't know why they are so rare, but they are.

GRUMPY -

IN HIS SS BOOK T.W. SAYS HE'S SEEN ONLY ONE. 'COURSE THAT WAS 10 YEARS AGO AND MEANTIME WE HAVEN'T HEARD OF OTHERS, RIGHT?

SO I GUESS THIS MAKES JUST #2.

ANYHOW, WHY ARE THESE SO RARE WHEN THE SS-FUHRERDEGEN - GRANTED, VERY SCARCE IN THEIR OWN RIGHT - STILL SHOW UP PERIODICALLY & THESE VIRTUALLY NEVER?

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND HOPE TO SEE MORE.

Good question. The officer swords were presented and the NCO ones were private purchase. Perhaps, there was no requirement for the NCO sword at a given point in time, but that doesn't seem to explain why they are so rare from this maker. In fact, there seem to be more "officer candidate" swords from Dachau than SS NCO swords. Police swords from there also seem to be very scarce. It's almost as if the NCO swords were phased out fairly early in the war. The officer swords also became scarcer later in the war. There are some who say many officer swords and "candidate" swords were put together after the war. Perhaps, but likely not to a great degree. In any case, it appears NCO SS and police swords from Muller were very limited in production. I recall seeing one of their police swords a while back on an auction. First of those I've seen anywhere.

thanks for the valuable extra input.

in wittmann's book, re the 'postwar-made-from-parts' examples he states, inter alia, 'these ... can generally be identified easily enough, as the parts are usually not finished entirely and they do not fit together very well....'

Most respectfully I don 't agree with all of the statements made - with some of it perhaps best illustrated in the following link from the sword forum. Regards to all, FP

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=250590&page=1

Fred, with all respect, I don't see what one has to do with the other. Could you please be more specific? Thanks.

Grumpy, If the thread is looked at in detail what Joe W says (abbreviated) is as follows: ................. �The sword in the first photo is a non-awarded SS Fuhrerdegen, of the design called called "Candidate" sword, that were provided for those officers desiring to carry a sidearm but not having the "connections" to be awarded an Ehrendegen. I provide this description based on the appearance in SS replacement price lists of a listing for an "SS-Degen", as well as the appearance of procured SS-Degens appearing on RSHA inventory cards. These were illustrated in T.W.'s book on SS blades for which I contributed the SS-Police sword chapter. I also present this photo of a number of "candidate" swords worn by Ober-Junkers of a class of SS-Schule Braunschweig.�

From �rakra� regarding the image Joe W posted: �Regarding the top of the grip/pommel it looks like an NCO one to me�

Reply from Joe W: ................... �They are "NCO" swords........I was using the term candidate in a tongue-in-check manner. Perhaps the "NCO" Degen is the real "candidate" sword..............

The many �variations� in the SS book (and in general circulation) suggesting more later period assembling with Dachu swords using parts from other sources. With as per the RFSS no more (ordinary) SS Honor swords to be awarded due to the war being written up in January of 1941. But apparently not officially published until mid 1942, citing restrictions with steel quotas as a reason (except of course for the custom made swords for HH as an obvious exception). With the wearing of swords forbidden in August of that year except for special occasions. Along with a published reminder that the SS dagger was an official sidearm that could be worn instead. Regards, Fred

Fred, I don't disagree with what you say. My observations are only that the sword here is indeed an SS NCO sword produced at Dachau and they are very rare. I especially agree that some Dachau officer swords (and perhaps otherwise) are made up of some parts from other makers. I have seen a number of these over the years, including at least two in Wittmann's catalogs. Few realize there are variants of the Dachau swords, as to materials used and scabbards. However, the basic hilt design is almost always the same, especially the grip. I too have seen period photos of SS candidates depicted with NCO swords. They could have been officer candidates or NCO candidates. The so-called "candidate sword," the officer type with no grip insignia, to me, remains an enigma. They seem to have been worn by candidates or candidate graduates and also used for other purposes. I hope someday an official order or other documentation will surface that defines exactly what the authorized uses (if they were authorized at all) were.

Fantastic sword David,rare and highly sought after no matter what the damn books say. With all due respect this is not physics 101 : ) cheers and congrats! Ryan

http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=43027&mm=1&xb=4&vd=1
Found another..

James (Damast), Thank you for the link which gives us another perspective on these scarce Dachau NCO degens. And while it might or might not help clear up the �why so few� mystery, it does help answer another small one for me. With many of the Officer and (so-called) �Candidate" pommels from Dachau that I�ve seen having a weak to sometimes virtually nonexistent nickel plating on the pommel caps. With this most recent example showing its age, but still having traces of nickel plating in the recesses. Best Regards, Fred

PS: While I know that this has been discussed other times and places. Does anyone have anything new on why the SS-Kulturzeichen was never stamped on the Dachau swords? Versus Allach that was literally in the same compound that had the marking? (The �Birthday� swords with out sourced components don�t count).

thanks again, all, for the highly informed commentary, kind remarks and lively banter. much appreciated for sure.

meantime, I found one on bill shea's site:

http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Edged/e278.htm

of course his and the other in poland are Sad Things compared to mine
;--)

That one is an "officer candidate" type sword, typical of the Muller style, with no grip wire.

RIGHT YOU ARE GRUMPY. D'YOU RECKON THESE ARE IN THE SAME SCARCITY LEAGUE AS THE LEADERS' AND NCOS' MODELS?

THANKS AGAIN, DAVID

SS NCO swords may be considered scarce, but I wouldn't classify them as rare. What makes yours rare is the maker. It is distinctly a Dachau type. The SS "candidate sword" is a pretty rare sword, especially in its earlier configuration. I know where there are several for sale on dealers' sites. They usually want around $3000 - $3500 for them. They seem to be slow sellers and in my humble opinion are overpriced. Some seem to think the later Dachau "candidate" sword is more desirable, but, I prefer the earlier ones, which often have trademarks on the blades and wire-wrapped grips like officer swords. Most of the Dachau examples do not have that feature. Really, any SS sword holds a certain fascination to me. Again, your NCO sword is extremely rare because of the maker. It would make a fine addition to an SS collection that has practically everything else, including one or more NCO swords. However, I doubt most would pay a premium for it if they are just looking for an NCO example and are not particular about the maker. I do believe it would be justified to ask more for it than a "standard" NCO sword. But that would be between the seller and the buyer.

It is all about timing.

As an NCO sword, it is worth what other NCO swords are worth adjusting for the quality of the piece.

As a rare maker, it is worth something extra only if there is a collector of maker marks out there who is looking for this mark and has the money to pay for it right now. And, maker mark collectors or scarce mark collectors are pretty scarce themselves.

So, David, if you hook up with the right guy at the right time, you could luck out... otherwise, it becomes another fine conditoned sword for sale.

John

Well said John.....

thank you, learned colleagues. I note TW's dachau leader's degen is still available for $11,500...

Why do collectors continue with the incorrect title of "Officer candidate degen" when there are period photos of Officers wearing them? Can't we get away from this? Are there still those out there that still think there are only 200 Himmler daggers, all awarded for the " night of the long knives" ?

David you hit the nail on the head when you said "still available at $11500" just like his parts Rohm SA dagger at $4500 both would be sold if realistically priced

Houston, There could be some hope that in the future it will get straightened out. While it is (regrettable but understandable) still in the books - it has been a while since I�ve seen the SS-Kulturzeichen itself described as: Honoring Karl Diebitsch with �his mark�. As the supposed designer/creator of not only the M1936 daggers, but also the SS Leader Degen and different variants, ceramics etc. that have the marking. Fred