Has anyone come across a blade with the motto in the right place but thinner motto lettering (1.2mm on the vertical parts of the letters as opposed to the usual thickness of 1.5mm)? This particular dagger is an early M36 with a doble arrow forge mark & clamp marks on the tang.It has alot of cross grain & shallow scabbard runner marks.I am having a problem putting a photo on as they exceed the upload limit so I will Email photos.
There are a few motto styles, mail me the pics and I'll post them if you like... redbaron@tiscali.co.za
Red
I would like to see that too.
"Reading" SS blade mottos and trying to attribute them to specific makers is a challenge that rarely yields concrete results. My opinion* is that the templates or acid-resisting devices placed on the blades were items made by several suppliers and I presume that even these supplier products changed over time. Complicating the issue is that I believe* that the blades of the small makers might have been ground, etched, and finished by a specialty concern rather than by maker.
JR's recent thread points out at least one example where the etch does give away the Rohm vs non-Rohm examples. The production period of Rohm daggers was short, 3-5 months, and Boker obviously used one supplier. After Rohm was assassinated, Boker used a different template with a new version of their trademark and without the Rohm dedication.
Dave
* These are opinions based on observations and could well be totally incorrect. If anyone has better info or another theory please post it.
Posting for Sharpe...
Description: Blade
Dagger
Description: Dagger
Chained
Description: Chained
Sharpe,
This motto is a known pattern seen on M36 daggers. The motto etching on M36 daggers is often quite poor compared to the earlier maker marked types, usually quite shallow, but precise. Yours does look a little peculiar as the etch seems rough and badly formed.
I would like to see some detailed pics of the rest of the dagger including a closeup of the motto, the chain links and the clover leaf hanger...
Red
Thanks for putting the photos on the forum, I will try & get hold of a better camera,than the 6 pixel one I used.
quote:
Complicating the issue is that I believe* that the blades of the small makers might have been ground, etched, and finished by a specialty concern rather than by maker.
There is a relatively long list of RZM approved subcontractors for the dagger makers. Taken together with the list of makers itself. It's not hard to see that quite a bit of what is normally ascribed to maker(s) may have more to do with subcontractor(s). Which would tend to confirm Dave's belief. With the RZM period merely being an approved extension of prior commercial practices. FP
Just an observation but the blade looks reground and polished. Thus leading to the smaller letter thickness on this blade. Just look at how the light reflects off of this blade it certainly reflects as though it has been polished post-TR era. I know that the factory did much more quality work than this blade exhibits. Just an opinion.
Posting another pic for Sharpe...
Red
Description: Motto detail
Links
Description: Links
Hanger
Description: Hanger
Crossguard
Description: Crossguard
Thanks to redbaron for the photos.As I said the motto has thinner lettering (1.2mm),but the etching seems neat enough for an early M36.Even though I borrowed a better camera I could not seem to get a photo that shows the cross grain,just got a bright shiny blade.Amongst others, I did get one properly showing the owner's engraved name (Erwin Kuther),as shown above.Even though it is on the correct side,I am always suspicious of these inscriptions,as in someone trying to up the value.
I fogot to mention the chain has split nose skulls on it.I first saw one of these in a book, even though the skulls were not mentioned by the author.I do not know who did these chains,just that they do exist.
Sharpe, its an interesting piece for sure, with the so-called Type X chain. The dagger seems fine to me from what I can see, although I can't personally come to terms with the motto etch, can't say I've seen one this rough, even on a M36. There is a current thread in the SS section which shows this motto pattern, and is more to the definition and detail I would expect to see.
Let's see what the others have to say...
Red
Yes when you compare the pictures mine does not look so neat.I am even more glad it has the double arrow forge mark & no deep scabbard marks.It is a shame the maker could not put more care & effort into the etching,because the dagger has survived pretty well.
A previous owner of this dagger got the history of Erwin Kuther(2 dots over u so Kuether) from Robert McDivitt,I have condensed & picked up some imfo from the areas he was in.BORN 20 June 1905 in Berlin.He was in the Hitler Youth & awarded the Golden Honour Badge.He was awarded a Danzig Cross 2nd class, these were given to Danzig Home Guard platoon commanders.SS Ausweis No.276209,SS-Mann on 12 march 1936 & rose to rank of SS-Obersturmfuhrer (Waffen SS).He took part in the Austrian & Czech. Sudetenland occupations.I think due to his age he was put into Ersatz (replacement) Battalions of various units (including Totenkopf & Horst Wessel) as well as various SS admin departments & not on the front.From March 1942 to June, he was at Lublin in Poland, when the Lublin Ghetto was removed & shipped mainy to Belzec cocentration camp, this was the first ghetto to be cleared.His next role was inspecting the concentration camps.15 july 1942 onwards he was in various Ersatz units at Heidelager training camp in Poland & some SS admin departments.He went back to Lublin for Aktion Erntefest,basicaly the final purge for that area.He then seems to become involved with the Sipo (security police) & the SD (security service).11 April 1944 he was in the 18 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenaidier Division (Horst Wessel) as part of the Ersatz Battalion.Then to an SS Panzerjaeger (assault gun) Ersatz Battalion.He ended up back in Berlin as part of the SS Regiment 75, a supplementary reserve/ general SS unit.No idea what happened after that.During his SS service he was awarded an SS Honour Sword & Totenkopf Ring, hopefuly someone has got one of these.The photo shows part of the Lublin Ghetto, Kuther is not one of the soldiers.
If anyone has an opinion on the style of engraving (and its authenticity) on the cross guard or has owned this dagger,I would like to hear from you.Oviously it goes without saying if someone does know what happened to Erwin Kuther after 1944 let us know, his history ends all too abruptly.
Need to see some real good pics of the engraving close up but it seems to be upside down?. Normally they are done the other way around.
Need some better pics of the blade dedication close up but it does look like its been polished or something.
It is quite unusual to find SS daggers with personalised crossguards, Mongo Bongo raises a good point on the engraving being 'upside down' too.
It would be interesting to see a few clearer pictures.
Cheers
Just for the record here as I was recently raked over the coals for owning a Himmler with an "Overpolished" blade it's probably the photography here just as it is in my case. Try as I might my blade looked extra shiney and without any crossgrain in every picture I took.
Jim
Yeah could be fine might just be the pictures, you cant really tell from these.
Thanks for the replies, I have not seen many personalised but have seen them either way, I know they all should have the engraving on the inside.I forgot to point out that the photo(unfortunately the best I could seem to get) is supposed to show that the Erwin part is more worn than the Kuther especialy on the E & top of the r, due to the way the dagger rubs against the leg when worn.This was reassuring when it was recently pointed out to me as it goes against my intial doubt of someone, who can engrave trying it on.
I was at the Farnham Maltings militaria show (Hampshire,England) & ran into a man who deals in German Soldbuchs,Wehrpasses & other documents.He had a look at the dagger scabbard (I didn't take the dagger as riding my bike to the show with the dagger under my jacket would get me in jail if stopped)& a very long look at the research file.I said I was trying to find out more about the man & he offered to take a look, I think to satisfy his need to find out what happened to Kuther as he did not want anything for the search.Anyway Kuther's final assignment in 1945 (Robert McDivitt put as illegible due to the very bad handwriting) was to a Jagd Verband unit & not Jager Verband as I thought the abbreviation meant or Jaeger Verbanol as it looked like.This is what the man had to say on Erwin Kuther.
Very interesting history. Thanks for posting.
Hi, it has been a few weeks but I have persuaded a work colleague who has proper photo equipment to take detailed shots of the dagger & the Erwin Kuther engraving on the lower cross guard. I will email the photos as they are over the memory limit. On the historical side of the dagger the man (Martin) who found out about the Jagd Verband has emailed me a photo of one of Kuther's men from his SD unit in Lublin (Poland) in winter 1942.
A special dagger to be sure, beautifull dagger... posting more picsfor Sharpe...
Description: Officer
Engraving
Description: Engraving
Closeup
Description: Closeup
Crossguards
Description: Crossguards
Tang forge mark
Description: Tang
Link stamping
Description: Link
You can kill me, but the name looks clearly like Rüther, not Küther, even if an evidence for Herr Küther does exist.
First of all thankyou to Red Baron for putting in all the photos in this whole article, bar 1. I am very grateful to you. If you look at the closeup of the writing it is partly worn on the Erwin end, especialy the E, due to this part rubbing against the uniform when in use. As for the name Ruther you could go all the way & say that the E in Erwin looks like a G. I think Robert McDivitt who did the initial research can read this type of writing.
With this forum, I now feel the need to prove 777 wrong, so as not to be seen as someone who is researching the wrong man. So I have emailed various dealers/researchers who deal with German militaria. The first to reply was from the Helmut Weitze company (I think most people would see them & Detlev Niemann as the best to ask), who agreed with me that the name is Kuther & not Ruther. See attachment & I hope it works! When I get the others I will post them.
777 feels convinced
Without a doubt that is a "K" as seen used in many of the early DL's.
Thankyou for your support JR, since 777 & hopefuly anyone else who thought the name was Ruther, is now convinced it is in fact Erwin Kuther, I will not bore anyone with further evidence from dealers/researchers backing up the Kuther name.
i like the dagger congrats..
Guess who this is????
quote:
A Special dagger to be sure
I have seen alot of great photos of SS men posing with their wives and girlfriends but this one is the best. Out of all the darkness the SS represents it is neat to see a human side to these guys. By the way what are those papers in his Sleeve cuff?
Well that photo is Kuther with a wine glass taken in 1951, I have never put so much effort into getting a photo. To keep it short I found 13 addresses of Kuthers in Berlin & sent a letter to all. His son Wolfram Kuther replied! His letter basicaly asked about my intentions & wanted proof of ID. I worked out that even to get a reply would indicate he had no idea of what his father realy did in the war. To gain his confidence I sent him a copy of my driving licence & one of the UNDERSIDE of the dagger, showing his father's name. This did the job & he sent me 2 E-mails, 1 with what little he knew of his father & the other with the photo. Basicaly Erwin Kuther survived the war, did not get caught & punished for anything (all that time in the SD & Sipo paid off!). He may have used the false ID given to active Werewolf members just after the war but he certainly used his proper name for the rest of his life, in West Germany. He died in Boblingen, Stuttgart on 01/02/1971, whilst living with his second wife. Hopefuly I can get someone to put Wolfram's letters on the website, otherwise if your interested contact me & I will Email them.
Posting the letters for Sharpe.
Well done on your efforts, you've been really persistent, nice to see it pay off like this. Congrats!
Red
Description: Letter1
Letter 2
Description: Letter2
Letter 3
Description: Letter 3
Thanks to Red Baron for the photos I think the scanner I used at work is destined for the scrap bin! Anyway if you know German & can read letter 3, you will see that Wofram says he never met his father in person but he does know he was in the SS. He is probably trying to distance himself from his father, because after the war in Germany people were encouraged to hide & feel ashamed of the past, I think this still goes on today & he is living proof of it. To answer Siegfried B's question I have no idea what's in the mans sleeve, all I know is that the photo was taken in Lublin, Poland & the date February/1942 is written on the back. It came from the Wiesentahl centre in Israel, passed to Martin of
www.ArchiveMilitaria.com (because they could not see the front of the man's face) & then to me. As far as I know he was not named but is described as an SD senior NCO.
I have to make acorrection, the photo of the SD man & his girlfriend did come from Israel, but from a private collection & not the Wiesentahl centre's archive library.
I would like to add a portepee to this dagger as Kuther according to his records, became Obersturmfuhrer der Waffen ss on 01/03/1940 & so he should have had a portepee around the handle. In the unlikely event that anyone has an original ss DAGGER portepee, can you let us know. On the research side of this dagger, I followed up the son's lead of Kuther's second family in Stuttgart & found 2 Kuthers still living there. I have sent letters to both this week & maybe I will be lucky. If one of these is his offspring, they would have grown up to at least late teenage level with him around & have a better insight as well as photographs of him. I am sure this second family put his dagger, maybe his ring & sword onto the market, if the last 2 survived the war.
Today I recieved an email from Wolram Kuther saying that he wants me to email him a copy of his father's SS service records. I was going to scan the records that I have & then it was pointed out to me that they would probably give the son a heart attack if he found out what his father had done in the war. Anyone who has followed this thread will know Erwin Kuther's history & what a great help his son Wolfram has been to me, so I do not want to ignore his request. If anyone has any advice on how to handle this dilema I could certainly do with it!
Well, it is not easy problem to solve. Interesting fact is that Küther wasn't recognised as war criminal (he used his proper name for the rest of his life in West Germany), so there is some hope that he wasn't involved personally in any atrocities and maybe it will reduce the guy's shock.
Perhaps he could claim ownership then..? Wonder why the inscription is twords him. Narcisist perhaps. SD and following orders , doubt that. Sharpe I would run and claim dillusional collector.
I do not think Wolfram would claim ownership of anything of his father's when he finds out what he was involved in. More likely to change his name.
There is a curiosity with the unknown. There are many children wanting to know there parents they have never seen or havent seen for many years. A perfect example would be the commandant leader of Plaszow work camp ( Amon Goethe)a very real character. His daughter finally found out about his past, she was quite saddened but relieved to close a long unanswered chapter in her life. I would say be very sensitive to Kuthers sons wishes. If it was happening to me, secretly I would want to know about my fathers past. I would grant his sons wish but I would be extremely discreet about it. I hope this helps. Best to you Sharpe, you have a great wall of support from this community. Best regards Larry
Interesting thread. It is a "K", not a "R" (see the attached pic of the official font in Germany from 1935 until 1945). The font is called the "Deutsche Verkehrsschrift" (not sure how to translate this, but maybe "German Intercourse Font" comes close to it). The government decided 1934 that this script shall be taught at all schools as as of 1935. This font is not the same like the one of the inscription, but I think one can see that it is a K not a R.
Hello ivbaust,
Your response, and presentation of the alphabet script, is very informative and illuminating - but please permit me to offer a minor correction.
In English the correct interpretation for
"Deutsche Verkehrsschrift" is - "German communication script". The concept of it being a "German Intercourse script" unfortunately has a rather ribald (lustern) interpretation.
I hope that you will accept my correction to this definition, and to do so in the good humour with which it is being offered.
FJS
Hello Sharp,
What a great dagger and great investigation.
On what to tell the man's son??
Send the man the information on his father.
It seems much of the world is going on some new philosophy where people who think they know what is better for other people have the right to withhold information from them.
This is not a comment towards you Sharp. Just something to think about while you are deciding.
Not to go off on a soap box here, but who can presume to know more about what is good for a person than that person.
On the other hand, if he never knows, the stress from not knowing can cause depression, even cancer. So be safe, send him the info.
Just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Frederick J. Stephens:
Hello ivbaust,
Your response, and presentation of the alphabet script, is very informative and illuminating - but please permit me to offer a minor correction.
In English the correct interpretation for
"Deutsche Verkehrsschrift" is - "German communication script". The concept of it being a "German Intercourse script" unfortunately has a rather ribald (lustern) interpretation.
I hope that you will accept my correction to this definition, and to do so in the good humour with which it is being offered.
FJS
Thank you for your correction, FJS. It´s always a pleasure to learn more about the English language. Translation programs indeed do have some limitations ... as we just have seen
Sharpe, are you sure the man would make no claim on his father's dagger?
What would be your response?
Just curious....
If you look at how I managed to get Wolfram to send me a photo & tell me about his father, you will see I had to send him a photo of the dagger with his father's name on it & a copy of my driving licence. He has known all along that I bought the dagger & this was the reason I had asked him for the imformation. Erwin Kuther took the dagger & what other belongings when he left Wolfram's mother, they were put on the market a while ago by Kuther's second family, so the money went to them.
Thanks for all your advice on what to say to Wolfram Kuther, I have sent him an email with a non too factual account of what his father did in the war. I mentioned Aktion Ernefest, Lublin Ghetto & just said "CAMP" inspection team.I left out what he was actualy in (SD,SIPO, etc) & what their role was, but instead just said he was in that area at that time. I know it's weak, but I do not know anything about his state of health & rather not give a 65 year old man a heart attack or a stroke!
Today I got a letter from a Horst Kuther (Erwin's grandson), he took 3 months to reply to my letter, but he did have some imformation. After the war Erwin stayed in Berlin using his false papers from the Werewolf organisation and began his profession as a "Merchant". He lived at 2 different addresses in the Berlin-Zehlendorf area (Von-Luck-Strasse & Pfeddersheimer Weg bei der Ehefrau), I do not know which army's Zone of Occupation that area of Berlin came under, but I doubt it was the Russians. As far as his job goes it looks as though he was more of a "black marketeer" than a merchant. I have had no luck in getting a reply from his other family in Stuttgart, but the German military archive centre (WASt) have agreed to do a search of their records. I have asked for his full SS records instead of the few pages I have got, though the WASt letter did state it could take up to several months.
You're right, Zehlendorf was/is located in West Berlin, i.e. not Soviet occupation area. Good luck with your further investigation, it's gettin' really interesting.
Posting for Sharpe
Description: SS Chained
With this dagger I have hit a problem with my house insurance renewal. Their limit on one item is £1700 or $2700, oviously this dagger is much more & they want a price from me. I am thinking of £7000 or $11200 & pay the extra premium, anyone think I got it wrong?
There are insurance companies that specialize in insuring collectibles. There are several in the USA, but I doubt they would insure overseas. You might check on the internet, ask fellow UK collectors, etc., about such. You can then compare the rates for the best deal.
Bad news, the German records centre (WASt) have contacted Erwin Kuther for his permission to send me his father's SS records. He sent me an email saying he will allow it only after he sees them first & decides what to release. So we will wait & see.
I met up with a reader of this article at the Farnham Maltings militaria show on Sunday. He told me about a personal account of an event, which took place as part of Aktion Erntefest on 3rd November 1943.The Lublin SD supervised the event & the cremations afterwards.
The man who witnessed the event & then organised the cremations was Erich Mussfeldt. No SD officer is personaly named by Mussfeldt & Kuther could have been in Lublin off sick with the flu! but they did organise the whole thing & due to the numbers involved it would have been a case of all hands to the pump.
It started in late October 1943 when 3 pits, 2m deep & 100m long, in a zig zag shape, were dug in Majdanek concentration camp by 300 inmates.Whilst the pits were being dug about a 100 SS & police were arriving from various Polish cities & 12 men from Auschwitz camp. On November 3rd 5am Mussfeldt noticed 500 or so armed police surrounding the camp & 2 trucks from the Lublin Propoganda Office,playing loud marching songs & Dance Music! Before 7am the operation began, inmates were herded into a barrack building, made to strip, then herded to the pits. In batches of 10 they went into a pit lay down in a close pact group & were then shot. This went on till 5pm without a pause in the shooting, due to the fact the executioners worked in shifts & used the local SS mess hall to eat in. The music was broadcast all the time covering up the noise. The pits were then covered over with a thin layer of soil. According to Mussfeldt the entire operation was carried out with close radio contact with the Chief of SS & police in Lublin & other higher officers. An SD officer supervising the operation would give out updates over the broadcasting trucks throughout the day.
Mussfeldt said he tried to save his own work group, but was told that it would not be allowed, due to the operation being conducted by the SD under strict orders from Governor General Frank.
After it was over, Mussfeldt was given 20 Russian POWs & told to cremate the 17,000 or so bodies. He said he was supervised by an SD functionary from Lublin up until Christmas 1943 when all had been cremated.
This eyewitness account was recorded by the Polish authorities on 16/08/1947. It is hard to understand why any member of the Lublin SD would have not been hunted down until he was brought to justice for this war crime.
Sharpe,
The more nice things you acquire the less it makes sense to buy insurance. Purchase a very heavy, fire-proof safe, and put your stuff in there. Alternately, you can get a lot of daggers into a safe deposit box at your local bank. I have one that can easily hold 20 SS daggers and it costs $80 per year.
Harvey
Sharpe this has been a great thread and your research on this topic has been very educating. Thank you for sharing. Larry
Today I got an email from a man who said he found another eyewitness account of the cremations after Aktion Erntefest. The SD functionary who supervised the operation was a SD officer from Lublin who was of an advanced age for a member of the SS. This statement was taken after the war by Polish authorities from a camp inmate. If this is true & I cannot find this statement, Kuther at 38 would have been a likely candidate. If anyone has seen this statement let me know.
Great thread thanks for posting, interesting reading.
Hi, I know it has been a while (4 months) but I am waiting for Erwin Kuther's documents from the WASt, which his son has requested.After looking at them he will pass on what he feels "comfortable" to me. Like his father's history could get any worse! I am guessing that the WASt is responsible for this long delay, but we shall see.
I bought this dagger about a year ago, off a man who helps out on a stall at most Militaria shows at Farnham Maltings & is more than aware of how much you can realisticaly get for third Reich items.The dagger came with some research but very incomplete as this thread has shown.Now it took about 8 months to get this dagger off Ron & he sold it to me for £4000 cash in a pub carpark one autumn evening. Oviously he was not happy & even less when it's very black history & some photos came to light.Now when I saw the dagger at the last Farnham show on Bunter's stall, which he sold to forum member Robinhood for £5700,I had the same feeling as when I saw mine, in that here was a well preserved early 36 with inscription(hopefuly some traceable) & not a plated or parts dagger.Now I know you will not get any bargains off Bunter & these types of daggers in good condition are not common, but have the price of EARLY 1936's gone up within the last year by around £1200?
I see no signs of tampering with the blade that can be discerned from those pictures.
Besides that, the acid that etched blades ate straight down into the metal, not at an angle. When a blade is ground down, the motto lettering gets fainter and you reach the bottom of the etch but does NOT get narrower.
I bought some junk blades a while back with which to experiment. One thing was to try regrinding / resurfacing when I found out the above.
BTW, another thing I tried was busting off the tip of the blade and it was harder than you might think. I tried breaking at the midpoint - no luck. Further down - no luck. only when I tried the last 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch was I successful ... which explains the daggers we see at shows
Dave
IT TOOK 10 MONTHS but finaly the documents have arrived.They are not as hopeless as I was starting to think they were. There are 5 in total & quite a few badly hand written entries in the "Remarks" & "Others" sections. I think this is the last imformation I will ever get on this man or Ethnic cleansing monster, depending on your point of view.
I have translated a few documents & with the help of a serving German liasion officer(who does not want to be named),managed to work out the handwritten(in old style German writing) entries. The first one was that on the 1/4/1936,as a senior officer cadidate(Oberstruppfuhrer or Standartenoberjunker as they became known after 15/10/1934) Kuther was transferred into "SS Wolf Gillert" which is described as a light infantry unit, but this description could be wrong as the writing was so bad! I have no firm idea which this honary titled unit belonged to, but I "think" it was part of the Totenkopf.This of course was all took place in the SS-VT years when the SS "Main elements" were Liebstandarte,Totenkopf,Regiment Deutschland & Regiment Germania being "Officialy" formed in 1936.If anyone knows anything on the Wolf Gillert unit or who he was let us know.
I have just completed the translation of Kuther's military service/training.From 1921 till 9/11/1923 he was in the Adolf Hitler Jungsturm in Berlin & rose to Jungsturmfuhrer(Young Stormleader).From the 16/4/1926 till 31/8/1934 he was in the Reichswehr (Federal Defence force)as a Leading hand in a group which carried out "Firework displays." He then became a merchant & worked in Poland,Austria & Czechsovakia.Entrance into the SS was on 12/03/1936 till 1945.His weapons training shows that he was qualified to use the Gewehr 98 rifle,Luger PO8 & MP40 machine pistol.He obtained shooting levels 1,2 & marksman. His special training was as a glider pilot & "Antigas instructor." I would have thought that being trained in the use of Chemical Weapons would have been more use when considering his duties in Poland!
I have got around to sorting out some more documents & have found out the following. In Kuther's training he attended the "Third course of exterior politics (international politics)at an SS so called School House.He was expelled on the 22/05/1939 for copying from books.I think this action could be taken 2 ways as the SS's view on international politics would be at least different if not the opposite of the truth. So to pass the course you would have to either be a young,enthusiastic & gullable believer or just copy out the text,after changing some of the words. I guess he was just not very good at copying.
Although Kuther was not on the official POW list,he did actualy end up in a camp. The WASt found an American "POW's personnel questionaire" dated 28/6/1946. In it is details of his 17 month in American capivity & 6 month German authority detainment.It started by him being caught,or more likely surrendering himself to the Americans so that he would live,on 02/5/1945 in Berlin.He ended up in the Berlin-Lichterfelde POW camp on 31/1/1946 until 05/7/1946.He was then transferred somewhere until being handed over to the German authorities on 31/10/1946.The German camp was at Darmstadt & was a civilian clothed camp.His last registration was on the 24/4/1947 at Camp 74(civilian clothed) in Ludwigsburg.I guess all these camps would have been in the US sector of Berlin & that he was not checked out properly.So he did not get completely away with it after all.
Today I have had a third "confirmation" that at the end of Aktion Erntefest on 3/11/1943 it was Erwin Kuther who was the elderley SD officer from Lublin (Poland) who organised the clear up operation at Majdanek concentration camp.As I have mentioned before this eyewitness (Oberscharfuhrer Erich Mussfeldt) said that an "SD functionary from Lublin", who he did not name in his statement, was there to oversee the clear up, the fine details being the removal of jewels & gold teeth as well as the complete cremation of the 17,000 or so bodies lying in the pits, which were then filled with earth & leveled off.This task took till Christmas 1943 to complete.An officer would have been used to organise such a large & lengthy task & the SD from Lublin did organise this whole operation & Kuther was posted there throughout this period.But on the other hand Kuther has not been named as this man nor did this eyewitness describe him as being elderly, just that he was an SD functionary from Lublin.I very much doubt if there will be any concrete evidence to say who did what, so I think it is best not to speculate & so I will ignore anymore so called "confirmations" from now on.
Thanks to some _. _. of a prankster adding on spam to posts on this website, my last 2 posts have been removed.Anyway a quick recap, I got lucky in getting the help of the German Bundesarchiv in Berlin, probably due to my dealings with the German WaST. They have sent me 4 copied documents on Kuther & have another 5 in their main library, which I have applied for.One document that they had was his Dienstliste-SS number 29930, it has his unit as "Leibstandarte-SS" This is the first Official SS & Clearly Readable! evidence that I have, which definitely puts him in the Leibstandarte. It turns out he posted to them on 1.4.1936 & was posted from them to the SS Personnel Main Department on 1.5.1939. This 3 year posting in my opinion was the Highlight of his otherwise behind the lines career, unless you like ethnic cleansing!
[img]
http://www.myspace.com562889290/pics/Dienstliste[/img] this shows a photo of the document, I hope.
This according to website instructions should show photo of document.
Very Interesting ,, was Erwin Kuther involved with the Lebensborn project also??
A number of his documents show him as a member nothing more. He did a posting in an SS personnel department, but nothing is mentioned. His time in Poland was to do with internal security work & training units.There maybe more but it was not recorded.
The last documents from the Bundesarchiv have turned up. At first glance one is a NSDAP letter from some Gauleiter and the other is from an SS Panzer Jaeger(Tank Hunter) training school in a place called Janowitz, I think this is in Poland but I could be wrong. I will translate these documents & see what they have.
The first document is translated as:
Munich,the 4.4.1935
K7 G/0 IV/35
To the
Region management Bayerische Ostmark of the NSDAP
Bayreuth
We send the following letter of the file of Erwin Kuther,Bayreuth,Parsifal street 23, from the 23.3.1935, together with 5 attached documents, for your imformation and responsible further execution.
Please note that the called has not been registered as a member of the imperial card index as of today.
We refer, for the rest, to the circular of the imperial treasurers number 36/35 from the 13.3.1935.
Hail Hitler.
1/A
Arrangements
Erwin Kuther born 20.6.1905
RL card index
not announced
-L4. 35 19______
The last 2 documents are translated as:
SS-Leadership course IIa Berlin-Jilmersdorf, Kaiser Avenue 88
II W II Department 1
Tank Hunter
Personnel Possesion
Subject: Posting to course in the SS Tank Hunter (assault gun) school Janowitz.
Reference: Heavy SS-FHA inspection department 6 (Tank Troop) file number: 21/Ze/F. from the 1.11.1944
Special Distribution.
The following SS Leaders are posted to courses in the SS Tank Hunter (assault gun0 school Janowitz:
1.) To the company commanders course:
2.) To the platoon commanders course:
SS-Lieutenant d.R. Kuther Erwin 20.6.1905 from SS-Tank Hunter training & replacement battalion.
8 December 1944
All posted personnel have signed in.
For the correctness. ez. Juttner
SS-Major SS-General & General of the Armed SS
When I bought this dagger I had no idea of what it would lead onto & now that I have used every source of imformation that can find for records on Erwin Kuther it is time to bring this article to an end.It has certainly been a learning curve for me & produced some outstanding results. One thing I have learned about Kuther is that he gave his all & stuck it out to the end, from the 1920's Hitler Jugend to 1945 in the Jagdverband(Werewolf organisation). He certainly had blind obedience to the cause & was "Extremely lucky" to escape execution, which just goes to show the DEVIL LOOKS AFTER HIS OWN.Thankyou to the 7600 or so people who have followed this unfolding account of SS-Obersturmfuhrer Kuther der Waffen SS.
Some imformation from a GOOD archive source (not some internet wannabe) has been passed onto me & I thought I would share it, even though I thought this article had come to an end. If an SD unit had no access to a concentration camp equipped for extermination in their district, then they would use a remote designated area if geographicaly possible. For the SD in the Lublin district this was Krepiecki forest which is "12km on the way to Zamosc." I guess Zamosc must be a small place as it was not in my road atlas? Anyway SD units conducted these trips on a regular basis & the SD officers took it in turns to oversee them whilst other ranks from an available SS unit did the shootings & arranged the burial using work camp inmates/Russian POW's. All though there is no actual account naming him personaly it stands to reason that Kuther would have had to do his share in the Krepiecki forest as a serving SD officer in the Lublin district. To me this makes it even harder to understand how he lived freely in West Germany for nearly 25 years under his real name until he died of natural causes in 1971.
Great Info Sharpe!
To me this makes it even harder to understand how he lived freely in West Germany for nearly 25 years under his real name until he died of natural causes in 1971.
My guess would be that in all things that we endure in life there are cracks in the wall that can be slipped through, and it is finding the crack that is hard. Any number of circumstances could of happened that we yet dont know about Erwin Kuther or other SS officers. Possibly he gave info to the allies for his freedom? Who knows. Just a theory. Your doing a great job Sharpe keep it coming!! Best regards Larry
I would have hoped that a Polish member could have shed some light on the goings on in the Krepiecki forest or at least revealed where it actualy is, there must be at least a monument out there. So if anyone has been there or in Lublin and seen some of these sites let us know.
Excellent story/article. That he got away with it doesn't surprise me at all. For every 1000 actors directly involved in the Holocaust and other atrocities, from those in Berlin signing orders, to those pulling the trigger or dropping Zyklon B, maybe 1 was actually truly punished or executed. The SS that massacred American soldiers in Malmedy, were caught, tried, sentenced to death. Within 5 years, their sentences were commuted, and then they were released. Of the four heads of the Einsatzgruppen, I believe only two were executed. The others had their sentences commuted, and later walked -- living nice, long, and happy lives in Germany. After all, the Cold War had started, and we didn't want to alienate our new allies - the Germans.
Those who were walking to the gas chambers believed some day, when the world found out, there would be justice. They were wrong.
Oh well, 95% - 99% of all parties involved - good, bad, or indifferent - are dust now.
Yes this website provided me with many details of Kuther's role in the camp massacre & the Krepiecki executions when he was in the Lublin SD,SEE PAGE 7, but there does not seem to be any recent imformation on these sites as in any photos,etc.
Kuther's turned up again, nothing special I think, it is to do with a hospital in Poland. I will translate it & let you know.
I have translated the document (it is a photocopy of the damaged original) as best I can. In Kraukau, Poland Erwin Kuther was appointed Commander of Security Police & S.A. from 16/04/1944. On 21/04/1944 he ended up in a military hospital with what illness or injury I am not sure. I do not think it was a war injury as he never went near the front but he would have been a worthwhile target to a Polish partisan. The next entry I have is from another document I had previously which states that on the 14/07/1944 he goes into the SS Personnel head office as well still being linked to the darker side as Commanding Officer of the SIPO & SD in General Goverment of whatever district he was in. Whether he stood in for the regular commander or somehow did both jobs I am not sure. I know this is not much but it does help to put together the story of this man's pretty horriffic career.
On page 9 of this article you can see a photo of a copy Kuther's SS details. One of his attributes was that he was chosen for the Lebensborn project, he also donated money out of his wages towards this project. I thought the Lebensborn was a sperm bank clinic for those picked out by the NSDAP doctors, etc. Then I read this book that has been around since 1958 with different covers, but I think the title has remained the same. OTHER MEN'S GRAVES by PETER NEUMANN is a biography of a German SS officer in the Wiking division from 1941 till 13th April 1945 when he was wounded & captured in Vienna. Pages 74-85 describe how he was selected, medicaly examined, his journey to a mountain village/baby farm called Schmallenog & the process of meeting & SUCCESSFULY mating with a "Perfect blonde" called Lotte Pflingen. It certainly makes interesting reading. There were a number of these breeding farms about & Kuther must have gone to one or more to do his "Duty." Oviously one of the benefits, for a chosen few, of joining the Party. The women who were mostly BDM members were told that they were performing a patriotic duty by giving their body to their country. I bet Kuther had a great time & the party took care of the resulting child/children!