Gents,
I have had an opportunity to look closely at another fake SS dagger. The knife is much better than the one in this thread:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/1140051505But the scabbard is worse. I will start on it in just a second, but the points I am trying to make are:
1. Fake are getting better and scarier
2. If you know what you are looking at and take the time to look at suspect daggers in person, the fakes are still reasonably easy to detect.
OK, here is what it looks like. It is supposed to be an early Eickhorn small trademark ground Rohm.
some more views
3
There are about 30 pics total, so hang on !
4
5
Smell a rat yet ?
Now, starting at the very top, the tang nut is not correct. Too short a top. These varied just a bit, but this one is not the right shape.
Fake on the left, real one (Hammesfahr swimmer SA) on the right
Now the crossguards. They are the correct shape and weight, but are of a material that is too shiny or bright to be nickel silver. They are cast and they even had a poor "P. A." cast into them, but they are not correct. Also, Eickhorn mostly enhanced the grooves of their early SS daggers by hand and these are not so treated.
That is the first time that I have seen what I consider repro crossguards with an attempt to put a castor's mark inside. Scary
There is also a casting flaw. If this were the only problem with the guards, I might accept it as you very occasionally see a guard with a minor flaw.
The grip. At first you say .. Wow, that is in great shape, but then you might notice that the wood looks too good, too precise, and too new. Still has that slightly fuzzy look of new wood that has been dyed but not 100% finished
another look
After comparison with others, I am 99% certain that the eagle is a good fake. It is attached with prongs, but seems to be inset in a very shallow fashion.
The metal appears to be softer.Note the dent in the halo above the eagle's head. Perhaps pewter. It does not have the look of nickel silver or plated nickel silver, but I am not certain that comes out well in the photo.
The rune button is glued in. There is no trace of the barrel pin visible the hole in the grip. The button itself? Not sure about whether it is correct or not.
From a different angle. You can also see what I mean about the new look of the wood and the precise angles which you do not see in even well cared-for daggers 70 years old.
The top grip hole looks normal
The lower hole looks less correct. If it were not for the other problems with the grip, I might accept it.
The blade.
First it has a very high ridge on both sides
The motto is 30mm from the crossguard which is incorrect.
On normal SS is should be 25mm and on Himmlers, and Rohms by Eickhorn and Klaas (small trademark), it should be 35mm
The trademark is too high on the blade and the squirrel looks more like a rabbit. Notice the incorrect tail
in another light. Notice also the high ridge
The tang looks absolutely new and is without any marks
Here are three close-ups of the motto. Notice the ridge.
Notice the crossgraining ?
Last part of the motto
Scabbard.
It looks like it is anodized, but it has late type fittings and screws and the shell is very light metal. No scabbard weight. The scabbard is much lighter than it looks.
Here is the lower fitting. Notice the steel domehead screws
The screws are correct in size for RZM era screws but they are absolutely brand new.
Upper fitting. Looks RZM type
Not a very good fit up as seen above. Actually, the scabbard throat is a bit smaller than the real ones. See below. Fake is on the right.
The scabbard is actually about 5mm - 1/4" - shorter than the real ones. The real one on the left is an RZM Eickhorn NSKK.
Even the carrying ring is a fake. It is smaller and poorly welded.
Here is an extra one of the crossguards.
Well, that is it.
Dave
Very useful post!
Will save a few people a lot of money if they read that!.
Very good work Dave.Thanks a lot.
Yes, thanks from me too Dave, I enjoy the hell out of informative posts like that, having been in this hobby for year or so. So much to learn.
Great post Dave! That is the kind of information that makes a great site! Charlie
Dave,
That's what I'm talking about. Good solid information. I saw an SA dagger at the SOS that is the same as this SS except for the motto, brown scabbard, and brown grip. The fakes are getting better. Be careful out there.
Excellent post Dave!
Thanks for giving a heads up on this.
Cheers,
Excellent thread and vey informative.
These fakes are becoming better and better but are still light years away from any original.
A Big "Thank You" from me too. This is the kind of information I visit this forum for. Great pictures and information. Very good job. This is great information for all.
Best Regards,
Al
We will see more of these, you can be certain. Someone spent some big money tooling up to make those components and they will make more than one!
The blade is the correct length, width, depth and weight. The steel is a duller color than the real ones.
You should expect to see these in SA and NSKK too. The basic indicators are:
- Grip wood too perfect
- incorrect tang nut
- RZM style plated scabbard fittings and screws
- Very light scabbard
Dave
There is one point that I missed in the above thread, so let's see who can find it.
There is one fairly obvious point that says this is NOT an Eickhorn dagger.
Anyone ?
Dave
Dave,
I thank you for this thread, this alone is a great example of what this forum is all about, without knowledge like this available, alot of guys would get burnt. thanks for your time, and effort!
(lets hope the "BAD GUYS" dont see this thread, and make adjustments accordingly!)
lol, as far as being able to tell what makes this not a Eickhorn, I have no clue, and I am anxiously awaiting the answer!
Dave,
I dont know if you refer to the motto, but some letters are definately not matching an early Eickhorn motto. M and h for example, but also other letters are somewhat different.
Best regards,
Not the motto, although that is not a good copy either.
Dave
It's not a subtle or hidden point - It is right in front of you
Dave
The eye on the maker mark looks very low!
Regards
Russell
No ....
Look at the last picture I posted
Dave
Once again Dave has provided an in depth study of the SS Dagger
Thanks Dave
The hand accented grooves on the crossguards???
Red,
Nope. Not the grooves. Those are NOT hand accented, they are casting flaws.
Keep looking
Dave
I meant the hand accenting to the grooves we see on early Eick crossguards aren't on these...
OK, how about that they're not HE or AR internally marked???
Wait, what about no GAU stamp?
Darn, I meant District stamp!
Nope. Nope.
Dave, All I can see is the scabbard throat is "thin" and not the Eickhorn "thick" type.
-serge-
Early Eickhorn crossguards should be marked "H,E" or "A,R".
Yes !
I looked at it a long time before the penny dropped. Eickhorn did not use P.A. guards.
Serge,
Also correct.
Anybody else spot something I missed ?
Dave
Is the ebony handle the same lenght and width as the originals? I bet the dark finish on the handle is appiled staining?
Yes, the grip was the correct width, height, and within the correct weight range. It was not ebony. Vern looked at it and guessed dyed pear wood.
Dave
Thanks Dave great thread.
quote:
Paul H
Posted 15 April 2008 01:08 Hide Post
Dave,
I thank you for this thread, this alone is a great example of what this forum is all about, without knowledge like this available, alot of guys would get burnt. thanks for your time, and effort!
(lets hope the "BAD GUYS" dont see this thread, and make adjustments accordingly!)
Paul is absolutely right we hope that they dont see it, but like vultures they are watching as we write and post. It is up to "us" to carry on this great hobby, so that deception does not takeover and lie to the new collector. This is some scary stuff, Dave posted. "Deine, Ehre Heisst Treue" Your honor is your loyalty to this hobby. Lets stay ahead of these guys. Good job again Dave. Sincere Thanks Larry
Thanks Dave, great thread with verry good pictures.
Ralf
Hello Dave,
I have try to you a private message to send. That cannot be done!!! Can you write me down please times?
ralfzx7r@web.de
Greeting Ralf
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.Certainly makes the hobby more enjoyable for those of us who still have a lot to learn!
Mik,
I don't use PM. Send email to dave@germandaggers.com
One of the guys who recently showed a fake one here was going to send it to me so I could photo it, but I have not heard from him.
Dave
Hi Dave, GREAT article! Although I no longer have my SS daggers, I am ALWAYS open to learning. You just never know when the next one will come your way. I wouldn't want to,as the book says Get stuck by a Phoney Dagger". Thanks again. Peace, Mark
Thanks for the Imformation, as the prices for original SS & SA daggers get higher the fakes get better.
If you have phony SS daggers or ones that have been ... um ... humped, consider posting them here. Or send them to me and I'll post.
Dave
Dave thanks for the informative post! As a new collector this is information surely helps a lot!
One question, when you have it in hand was it easy to spot it was a fake? Did you know right away or did you have to spend some time going over the nitty gritties so to speak?
I think a dagger like this would probably be photographed in such a way to hide the flaws, put on an auction site like ebay and then sent to the unsuspecting seller.
Even from a distance it looked too pretty. I spotted the new looking grip wood right away. Then the trademark positioning as soon as I saw the blade. After that I saw signs as noted above. A new guy would probably not spot these.
With the value of these daggers, there is a big incentive to fake them.
Dave
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU !!!
I have a(poor)repro dagger with chain.
As an old W.SS vet (34th) I just look at it for nostalgia's sake.
Just from reading this ONE thread i learned a lot. I am not a collector, but am very interested looking at the schemes people will go through to make a fast buck.
The scary part is that replicas are getting better and better, and I wonder how many will be taken for a ride.
As always: Caveat emptor !
Haen
Dave, That must have taken you a considerable amount of time to post. I'm just another member saying Thank You.
Thanks
US collectors - If you have a fake and send it to me, I will do a thread on it and return it.
Dave
A reminder that if you have a fake and live in the US**, please send it to me for posting and analysis. I'll keep you name out of it if you wish and sent it back at my expense.
I'd buy it too, for $100 or less.
** other areas too, if your local Customs won't get too exited
How about one from BUDK knives, from ten meter distance they look OK . Thy cost $ 12.99 plus shipping. If you will pay
$100.00 for it (LOL) I will buy a couple of dozen, and send them to you. (LOL-LOL)
Just kidding. !!!!!
Thanks for the postings guys, never too old to learn, even at 85
HN
Those $12.95 or even $21.95 don't fool anyone.
I am very interested in doing "show & tell" on the newer fakes that can really confuse newer collectors.
Dave
Hi Dave,I may have one for you.How can I contact you for the pix? Thanks Dutchman.
Hi Dave,On the Dagger you showed the maker C.E. is the Squirrel supposed to have a mouth? Dutchman.
Yes, but not very distinctive. Sort of an indentation at the top of the neck.
My email: dave@germandaggers.com
Hi Dave I have tried twice to send you pix but it failed? Dutchman.
?? I got pictures from another GDC member this morning. Maybe NY has a tax ?
Hello Dave this is what it says(<dave@germandaggers.com>:
user is over quota)Dutchman.
Hell Dave,May be the pix are too big? Dutchman.
Nothing arriving. Why not post here?
I'm new here,and an SS Dagger is on top of my most wanted list.And with the Price of them it's going to be a long time before I ever get one,and then again I may never be able to afford one.And with that I wouldn't mind having a really nice repro of a SS Dagger,and not those Plastic Handled Flea Market Jobs.I already have one of those,I fell for that one back around 2001(that's another story)
..But these People that make these Fakes are trying to rip people off,there not trying to sell a nice Reproduction Dagger.Instead of being a Crook why don't they market them as good Repros,and then the People that really want an SS Dagger & can't afford the real thing can have one that's pretty close.They could put a small mark on them so nobody can try to pass it off as the real deal.But instead of selling them at a Repro Price they want to take advantage of People,and sell them at the real deal Price.
LSM,
The problem is that any 'really nice repro' was not made for sale as a repro. It was made with intent to deceive and is usually priced a little under the real thing. You might get lucky and find one from a dejected collector, but don't bet on it.
LSM, this hobby, like all hobbies, has unscrupulous people who are out to make money by deceiving people. To put it bluntly, they are crooks. Occasionally, an honest collector has made a mistake, including me. But, buying from a reputable dealer or collector is usually safe. In any case, a money back guarantee should be included in the sale. Good luck on finding an SS dagger that suits you and that you can afford. If possible, stay with the real thing. You'll be glad you did.
You Guys are right,instead of being honest with their Repro Daggers they try to take People for their hard earned $$.There are Crooks in every type of Collector situation,especially when a certain area of Collecting gets Hot like WWII German Items are now.And I thought about what Grumpy said about not buying a Repro,and staying with the real thing.So for right now I'm going to find a really nice early SA Dagger,and even though it's not an SS Dagger I'll still have a Real German Dagger.And I'll keep saving,and eventually maybe I'll get lucky enough to get that SS Dagger....
Hi Dave
I really liked your post on spotting a fake.
I'm new and I think one of the fun things about this hobby is trying to spot a fake.
Here is a parts dagger currently on ebay that has 28 bids. It seems that it has the fake tang nut as shown in this post.
What do you guys think?
Interesting read! Thank you!!
Yes Dave very nice, I am in a learning stage
I'm new here and glad I came here before I bought anything. I better do my home work. Who would you recommend on buying one?
total fantasy piece, i hope you didn't pay much for it
200 euros I payed but if is not true I can refund my money back
Total fantasy post war piece.
Go get your money back my friend
