ORPO

Posted 12 September 2004 11:38
There is much confusion between Strafvollzug and Justiz uniforms. Strafvollzug Beamte might be considered as prison wardens while Justiz Beamte might be considered as court officials such as bailifs. This distinction is actually not so clear cut and there seems to be much overlap and integration in their duties. What seems to be more clear is that they wore the identical sword with a gold finish for Strafvollzug Officials and a silver finish for Justiz Officials. Biesen- und Effektenfarbe colors are more confusing with red being associated with Strafvollzug and green being associated with Justiz.

Anyone with regulations for Strafvollzug or Justiz please chime in here.

Bernd Ostermann has two tunics that give every appearance of being for the Strafvollzug. Here is a view of the first one that seems to conform to known examples.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 12 September 2004 11:43
View of the collar tabs that have green backing with gold piping and a single gold litzen stripe. These tabs have been observed with a button at one end of the stripe but these tabs do not have a button at the back edge. Notice the green wool collar as well.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 12 September 2004 11:46
Close up view of the insignia showing gold and green Meister boards. This is an early tunic with three hooks at the collar and shows much wear.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 12 September 2004 11:50
View of the red piping that is generally associated with the Strafvollzug. Interestingly, this tunic has red piping on both flaps of the tunic front. This tunic also has a sword/bayonet slot and Bernd feels it may be a Weimar period tunic that was worn into the NS Zeit.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 12 September 2004 11:59
View of the back of the tunic showing the typical four panel cut. This tunic has no inside breast pocket but does have the pockets in in the boxed tail lining. The two smooth silver buttons at the tail are belt ramps and all buttons are Assmann marked.

Note the color on some of these photos is a little off, but the tunic is in fact green with a green collar. The piping is the proper carmine red and not Artillery red as it tended to come out in the photos. One can clearly see the wear caused by wearing the belt with a cross strap over the right shoulder.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:45
Hello George

I like that, I do not know what time frame it is from but it looks good, here is my jope style. The peaked cap I have been told is later justice with black cap band and schupo piping. I do worry though that it is post war, looks right inside though and is dated 1938, totally unissued. The black swaetband is still very soft.


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:48
Jacket front


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:53
Collar


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:58
Back


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 13:01
Cap Front


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 13:05
Side


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 13:09
Inside

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gary8,


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

patrick
Posted 13 September 2004 15:47
Great idea for a thread George, this is by far a very confusing area with little ref material.

I was able to pick my tunic off of EBAN earlier this year, it is a bit worn by for the price I wasn't complaining. Anyway the only other items I have are two pair of boards.

I just need the pink piped set know. hehehe

Gary love the visor, I remember when you first posted it, glad you found some info on it. Very nice and clean.

pat

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


Posts: 1146 | Location: alexandria, va us | Registered: 13 January 2002

patrick
Posted 13 September 2004 15:48
2

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


Posts: 1146 | Location: alexandria, va us | Registered: 13 January 2002

patrick
Posted 13 September 2004 15:50
3

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


Posts: 1146 | Location: alexandria, va us | Registered: 13 January 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:22
I guess this cap could go with the first uniform


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:30
side


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:45
Back


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:55
Cord


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 17:03
inside


Posts: 1565 | Location: England | Registered: 03 June 2002

johnrtse
Posted 13 September 2004 23:09
I'm really enjoying all the great uniforms in this thread.

Just an observation; I don't see any national eagles on the breast or sleeve- Were they used on these uniforms?

Thanks in advance!
John
Posts: 111 | Location: New Ulm, Minnesota USA | Registered: 16 May 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:10
John,

These uniforms do not seem to have utilized a sleeve eagle that we are aware of.

Gary & Pat,

OK, you guys have shown the open collar and the closed collar Justiz uniforms, so here is the earlier style with concealed buttons. I think we can all agree that these green piped uniforms are Justiz as opposed to Strafvollzug uniforms. Interestingly, these all have gold buttons and the Justiz sword is silver. Bernd's uniform has silver buttons and the Strafvollzug sword is gold finished.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:16
Here is Bernd's second uniform. This one is very similar to the first one and shows much wear and signs of alteration to conceal the red piping. We both believe this to also be a Strafvollzug tunic.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:20
Notice that the collar on this tunic is piped in red but the front is not. Actually, the front was piped in red but the piping has been removed from the exterior flap during the time of use.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:22
View of the concealed piping on the front of the tunic and the cuffs. For some reason the tunic was altered to conceal this red piping during the time of use. Interestingly, the piping remained around the collar. Perhaps it was too difficult to remove?

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:26
View of the insignia showing the silver buttons and white cellon and green boards and collar tabs.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

patrick
Posted 14 September 2004 12:27
George,

Very nice uniform you just posted, like mine it seems to have been worn allot. The first uniform you posted what type of collar tabs are those, thats the first time I've seen them.

pat

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"
Posts: 1146 | Location: alexandria, va us | Registered: 13 January 2002

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:29
View of the interior showing the tailor markings with the interior breast pocket. All buttons are smooth silver and Assmann marked.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 12:32
Final view of the back showing the four panel cut. Notice the similarities and differences in the two tunics. Bernd feels this is also a Weimar Republic period tunic that was carried over into the NS Zeit.

The one thing that these tunics seem to have in common is that they show heavy wear. I tend to believe that they were simply worn, and altered, until they were about worn out. That includes mine as the neck and fabric shows very heavy wear. It also appears that the buttons were moved to the outside of the flap at some time in its life, perhaps to meet new regulations to look more like the example that Pat shows. My tunic was manufactured as a concealed button tunic however.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 13:10
Pat,

I believe the collar tabs on Bernd's first uniform are the later regulation tabs. I think Ernst has a pair with the buttons at the end of the litzen. They would be like the ones on your tunic except have the single litzen if they had buttons. The button may have been removed from his tabs, but I cannot tell.

Here is a set of the red (pinkish) backed shoulder boards that I believe are later regulation for Strafvollzug. The cap cord is also for the Strafvollzug (or perhaps Justiz) and is similar to the one on Gary's dark cap with red piping.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

Jiri Libal sr.

Posted 14 September 2004 17:14
ORPO,
both of Bernd's tunics have silver (glatt) buttons?
First of them has gold boards and collar tabs piping?
Second has white/silver boards and tabs piping?
Both of these tunics are from the same man (or purchased together)?
In my 40 years experience with German militaria I never saw such a combination - gold/yellow Effekten & silver/white buttons!!! That must be old uniform with new insignias (immediately after insignia change I think).

BTW.: After my opinion ROSETTES were changed to PIPS during NAZI era and not vice versa (but I hav for this idea no exaxt reason)

For problems with webmaster of "tenzor" I put my Justizbeamte table here:
http://insigniainfo.topcities.com/forum/JB.html
Posts: 451 | Location: Praha, Czech Republic | Registered: 01 July 2002

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 18:01
Jiri,

Yes, both of Bernd's tunics have plain silver (glatt) buttons. Yes, The first tunic has gold boards and collar tab piping. Yes, the second has whitish cellon (and green without the red backing shoulderboards) but it is possible the cellon is faded and it may have been gold at one time. The tunic is heavily worn and I cannot tell for certain on this tunic.

I do not think the two tunics came from the same man, but I do think they are early tunics that have been continued in service after a regulation change. I agree with you that they are probably old uniforms with new regulaltion insignia. That is the only reason I can think of to hide the red piping on the front and cuffs of the second uniform.

I also tend to agree with you that the rosettes are early and were probably changed over to pips on later shoulderboards. The rosettes do seem to have been available in catalogs during the war however. Perhaps for other Beamte as well as Justiz u. Strafvollzug. The glatt buttons confused me as well and that is why I pointed them out. They do appear original to the two tunics.

Here is another set of my shoulderboards that have the red underlay as on the pair that I showed with the rosettes instead of pips.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 14 September 2004 18:11
Jiri,

Here is a close up view of the shoulder boards on my tunic with concealed buttons. They are gold cellon with green underlay. They also have the Beamte rosettes instead of the pips.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

goldfasan

Posted 14 September 2004 18:38
Heres one I owned at one time - it was a beauty came with papers from the man.

"He who hesitates is lost- is not only lost but miles from the next exit"

gold # 0299


Posts: 776 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 August 2001

ORPO

Posted 15 September 2004 10:07
Goldfasan,

Yes, I remember your nice red piped uniform. You also had a green piped one as I recall. Was this one with the concealed buttons dated? This fellow was identified as a Strafvollzug Beamte, correct?

Jiri,

I have a couple of corrections from Bernd. He did receive the two tunics together about 14 years ago and believes they were supposed to have come from the same person in Berlin. He also states the insignia on the second tunic was faded gold color cellon and not silver as previously described. He cannot find any evidence of a button on the collar tab of the first tunic.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

goldfasan

Posted 15 September 2004 17:03
Jiri - Yes, he was assigned as a court bailiff. If interested in the tunic Bob Rodgers now owns it and I do beleive he wants to sell it.

"He who hesitates is lost- is not only lost but miles from the next exit"

gold # 0299
Posts: 776 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 August 2001

ORPO

Posted 19 September 2004 12:40
Gary,

Here is a cap of Bernd's that is similar to your Justiz cap. It is lightweight twill with a black wool capband and green piping. The cap is lined with a brown-grey silk liner with a celuloid sweat shield with no maker. The cap has never had a capcord and he has not removed the SS insignia as the prongs do not pierce the silk liner. The visor is bound on the edge, has a checkerboard pattern, and is painted grey on the underside.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

ORPO

Posted 19 September 2004 12:45
View of the interior of the grey leather sweatband showing prison security markings for Zweibrücken. There is a large 2424 stamped on the other side of the interior sweatband. Bernd believes this may be a latewar officer quality cap.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


Posts: 2456 | Registered: 25 October 2003

Great "putting together" - thanks!
Strafvollzugsbeamten & Justizbeamten are one great "Questionmark" for most of us, I think. For several years I'm trying to make some "Zusammensetzung" of Spartefarben, uniforms, insignias etc. of that mystery group of government officials but with very little success.
Very helpfull is Gary's Dienstbekleidungsvorchrift( much thanks, Gary, one more time), but this regulation is dated 1942. I myself have only one table of rank insignia (nondated) - but it must be pre-1942, I think.
Two things are from Gary's "Dienstbekleidungsvorschrift der Reichsjustizverwaltung (DBeklV) clear:
1) Uniform color:
feldgrau bis 1942, after 1942 dunkelgruengrau
2) Stars versus Rosetten:
Sterne bis 1942 - Rosetten after 1942

After DBeklV : "In Strafvollzugsdienst ist die Farbe der Kragenspiegel hellgruen, in Justizwachtmeisterdient entspricht sie der Farbe der Amtsroben..."
But what color were "Amtroben" cannot I find - I know in BRD is black, but was black in 3rd Reich too?
After my table (http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/forum/JB.html) is Reichsgericht & Volksgerichtjustizbeamten-color red, for others (Landesgericht?) was hellgruen

Form DBeklV 1942: "... Reichsjustizverwaltung und fruehere Landesjustizverwaltung..."
Shoulderboars backing hellgrün for Straffvollzugs- & Justizbeamten too.

Bill, can You share your sources? And has anybody another sources?

Thnx

OOOh, I forgot!
Here is my one (and I have only this one) shouderboard - it must be ater 1942 (due Rosetten):

Bill,

The outfit that Goldfasan posted above is now in my collection. One of the documents to this one individual list him as a "Strafanstalts-Oberwachtmeister" and he was promoted from a "Justizwachtmeister" on another. He was a WWI veteran and I have his Imperial Militärpass where he served as an Unteroffizier in an Ulanen-Regiment and an MG Komp.

He is also shown as serving in a Gerichtsgefängis from 1934 to 1938 so he was what we would consider a "jailer." So, I think the distinction between a court officer and a jailer may not be such a bright line as we think. Perhaps we should think of these folks more in line with jail personnel who transport folks to court to and from municipal or county lockups for trial and folks to serve in prisons for convicted criminals? Frankly, I am not certain myself but the more I learn the less I am certain there is a bright line distinction between Justiz and Strafanstaltz folks.

Here is another view of the tunic, which is much like yours.

George

Here is a closeup of the shoulder boards. I believe these indicate Strafvollzug service and the documents to this tunic call this man a Strafanstalts-Oberwachtmeister.

George

George - Congratulations glad you now have it - I changed my direction to Political Leader and had to release some of my items. This came straight from the wearers son along with the papers.

Horst

Horst,

Thank you. I am always happy when I can buy something that I need from other forum members. I think the outfit is outstanding.

Here is something else that I happily bought from another forum member when it became surplus to their needs. This is what I believe to an example of the Justiz side of this discussion. Notice that this tunic is cut in exactly the same form as the carmine piped one but is green piped. Also notice that the buttons are white metal instead of gold color.

This seems to make complete sense if you read the WKC catalog description of the sword for these two officials. The distinctive sword has the same catalog number of Nr.1047 for both with the following descriptions:

"Justizbeamten-Säbel, silberfarbig
Strafanstaltsbeamten-Säbel, vergoldet"

I believe this tunic to be an example of the Justizbeamte from this same time period.

George

Closeup view of the shoulder boards on this tunic. The shoulder boards are certainly the distinctive earlier style of Justiz boards from prior to 1942 when the tunics had concealed buttons, different pips, etc as Jiri has pointed out.

At one time there was a chart showing these earlier style Justiz boards but I don't know if it has dropped off the forum or not.

George

Bill,

I frankly don't know.

I really don't understand the white metal buttons myself... but there they are. They look original to the tunic and are the proper "krinkle" style of pebbling by Assmann. That is to say, they are not the standard military issue style of pebbled button if you know what I am trying to say. All I can think of to do is to go back to the color of the swords and that would correspond nicely to these buttons.

I don't know about the pips either. The 1942 regulations state "Rosetten." Two Rosetten for Oberwachtmeister boards in either Justizwachtmeisterdienst or Werkdienst bei den Vollzugsantalten. This is the rank of both these tunics. The green Justiz shoulderboards are distinctive with the separation between the tresse but I don't know the dates for these. Perhaps Jiri knows?

Both of these collar tabs are green but I have seen the black ones too. Combine that with the black band on the peaked cap. Shoulderboards and collar tabs all have gold cellon trim, which seems to be rather standard.

Unfortunately, the only set of regulations we have are the 1942 regs that Gary came up with. These regulations show the tunic as having six exposed buttons on the front of a closed collar tunic. These tunics all (except for Bernd's eight button examples and Gary's open collar) have concealed buttons. I think these are earlier but that does not mean that they could not have continued in wear for some length of time.

It is confusing...

Bill,

A great example of the 1942 regulation Justiz tunic! I don't disagree with your supposition about the silver collar tab buttons. That scenario sounds reasonable to me and may well explain the white buttons. It also makes sense in light of the silver and gold finished swords.

George

Bill, What a Spectacular Example of a Rare to see uniform (!) Perhaps Gary8's Book will serve to clarify all of these types of Color nuances? Hope so.

Also Love the Shoji Screen background, as it gives Vert./Horiz. perspective to the Uniform (and just kinda looks like those "lines" behind the Guys in Police line-ups & Mug Shots.... Intended, or Unintended...neat! Dave....dblmed

In few past days I tried put together all known informations to Strafanstaltsbeamten & Justizwachtmeister. It's only worksheet for the present not for public use.
Okay, there are some mistakes and dubiousnesses.

If somebody of forum members has more informations or can correct any mistakes in this worksheet, please, be so kind and share it with me - to make this page so accurate as possible

Thnx

http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/dr/mdj/MdJ.html

Here is a very nice picture I just got in of a justice official, notce the darker collar and against the lighter jacker. Could this photo be of a justice official for the occupied eastern territories?

My congratulation also on this cap it is a great cap...Looks real fine with the tunic.

These uniforms - one beside another- looks really GREAT! It seems You're have a very rare collection of TR prison officials!

Strafvollzug Officer's:

Strafvollzug NCO:

Second visor (if buttons are silver) is for Justizwachtmeisterdienst (after old dress regs to 1942) - see sources I)from
http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/dr/mdj/MdJ.html

Jiri--they are gold buttons:

In this case is a mystery cap - bird must be in golden yellow for all ranks after DBeklv 1942 (the last one in TR era I'm 100% sure)....
The first cap chincord is not after DBeklV too - there must be 2 green and 1 gold cords, not 2/2 cords...
It seems some anomalies were tolerated in Strafanstallt Dienst...
In all cases they are great visors... and in very good conditions. Congrats!

BTT to keep alive

Nice uniforms, but it is the name Unland that I find interest in. A friend in Baltimore has known a family with the same name for over 30 years. and this fellows father was in the service of the Polizei I think his name was Hans do you my friend D.A. Monath?

Is there any one here have an rank charts of these ranking systems ? I have yet to find one. need for my records.
thank you . jeff

This is a tough one. Justiz basically used the Prussian ranks until the early 40's when they standardized from two branch colors,Carmine and green to just green, but silver tab buttons were retained for one branch, gold the other. You end up with very strange combinations, Carmine piped tunics,with green and gold boards,and silver piped tabs.
All VERY strange, and I have never seen a clear explanation of it all. Justiz was not part of the police so the Deuster book I recommended in the other thread is silent.

Bill Unland

Jeff,

Bill is quite right about changes in the Justiz rank system over time. Similar to the Ordnungspolizei but a bit different in the styles. Here are some examples of the more often seen later style NCO rank boards. As you can see they are piped in both green (Justiz) and carmine (Strafvollzug) depending upon their assignment. Earlier examples had different styles of aluminum tresse.

Thank you bill & "orpo". I'm currently back working on a book idea . basically artwork of all the ranks of the third reich.
collar tabs , shoulder boards , sleeve patches, & arm bands (but only if it's for a rank).
so on the odd ball services , I'm lacking info. & beating the trees , seeing what falls out.
thanks for the info., just means I have to dig deeper....jeff

Here is a first pattern pre-1941 Justiz Officials Schirmmutze with carmine piping for court official/administrative official. Unfortunately it got wet at some point and the green dye of the top turned the piping around the crown almost purple. The bottom retains the original carmine color.

W.Unland

Here is the tunic that goes with the above cap.

found this on the net. (1943 dated ??).jeff

this page also.

and lastly ,which shows female uniforms also !!!
does not explain much but, still nice to see the original art work. jeff

Thanks for posting.

Bill U

I would very much appreciate if expert members of this forum would post pictures of the correct portepee and troddel patterns worn by Justice and Prison Officials on their respective edged weapons - swords/bayo's. These accoutrements are almost never seen and it would greatly assist me as a TR edged weapon collector. Many thanks in advance.

Barry

my rendition of the female collar insignia, justiz section 1942 regulations. any comments ,any corrections ?
jeff h.

Just adding another Justizvollzugsanstalten uniform to the thread. This three pocket style of early police tunic can be found in Bavarian Police regulations as shown by Ingo Lohken in his books on German Police Uniforms.

Thanks, ORPO.

These guys did not score a very fancy uniform, did they ? What did the Justizvollzugsanstalten do ?

Dave

Justiz guys consisted of Criminal Court Officials (Beamte), Jailers, and Prison Correction Officers. They still exist in Germany and postwar East Germans called them Prison Police. This three pocket uniform is a throwback to Imperial times but it was worn at least as late as 1933. You can't have a police state (or actually any state) without jailers.

I just picked this tunic up last week from a local source. I seldom see Justiz stuff and it is quite scarce.