#83807
07/01/2006 10:29 AM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312
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OP
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312 |
I noticed on prorege's thread he posted another ckl SS helmet that has the decal placed off set. I think this has been discussed before but do you think it is a coincidence or something else. I would also like to see other's ckl off set decals. Are they just SS or are other branches decals off set on ckl helmets? Here is my ckl SS helmet with the off set SS decal. It is off set exactly the same as prorege's helmet.
Bryan
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#83808
07/01/2006 12:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 226
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 226 |
It has been discussed before and there seems to be some similarity of the angle of the decals and the batch numbers. What is your helmet stamped? Mine is CKL64 & 3032
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#83809
07/01/2006 12:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 226
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 226 |
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#83810
07/01/2006 12:10 PM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312
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OP
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312 |
I believe mine is a 6970.
Bryan
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#83811
07/01/2006 02:07 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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It seems the majority of M42 ET/ckl will have a tilted decal. In my experiance its actually difficult to locate one with one applied straight. Its one of those unsolved helmet problems I'd love to know the answer to.
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#83812
07/01/2006 02:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,115
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,115 |
I would like to know too. Here is my ckl,batch#3012
Glenn
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#83813
07/01/2006 02:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970 |
Though not applied at an angle perhaps the batch #2954 is indicative of when the shield began to be appear askew.
Cody
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#83814
07/01/2006 03:29 PM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,948
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,948 |
An interesting topic. I believe there are just too many examples in existence to think that the decals were put on askew in error. There had to have been a conscious effort to do this by certain ET company decal applicators. Perhaps they thought the runes looked better in a more upright stance or it may have been the style of the time where many soldiers (and even civilian men) wore their caps at a rakish angle to appear more "jaunty". I don't believe we will ever know the true reason why but it's fun to speculate.
Cheers,
Darryl
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#83815
07/01/2006 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,430 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,430 Likes: 1 |
My long time theory on this has been that the decals were skewed to the rear to make the runes appear more vertical. Has anyone seen a runes decal skewed forward? I haven't.
"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow" -Cross of Iron
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#83816
07/02/2006 12:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 829
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 829 |
My tilted one. I've neverseen a repro or a fake with a tilted decal... yet! Shu
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#83817
07/02/2006 03:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,115
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,115 |
I would agree with Darryl and Bernie's comments which makes perfect sense. Just to many from this manufacturer with the decals placed in this manner.I would think that if it was human error then some would be tilted in the opposite direction.
Hi Shu,
Can I ask the batch # in yours??
Glenn
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#83818
07/02/2006 03:37 PM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312
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OP
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312 |
Bryan
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#83819
07/02/2006 04:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 829
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 829 |
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#83820
07/02/2006 04:12 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Here's one applied straight, batch# 2871
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#83821
07/02/2006 04:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970 |
We have 2954 applied on vertical with 2975 applied askew. At this point in the thread it would not be unreasonable to assume the application anomaly began somewhere between batch #'s 2954 and 2975. It would be equally interesting to determine when the anomaly ceased.
Cody
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#83822
07/03/2006 02:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 34
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 34 |
Hi all, Here is a pic of my tilted ckl 66 with batch number 2882. Charles
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#83823
07/03/2006 08:48 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49 |
Is that what Bob was recently selling?
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#83824
07/03/2006 09:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970 |
Based on the posted examples it would be reasonable to assume more than one person was tasked with applying SS decals at the ET facility.
Cody
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#83825
07/03/2006 10:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,115
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,115 |
But I wonder if it was only one individual who applied the decals in this manner.
Glenn
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#83826
07/03/2006 11:26 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,881
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,881 |
Its obvious to me that shellshock is responsible and the only explanation, it wobbled loose a few vital organs and to him they where perfectly straight.
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#83827
07/04/2006 04:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 31
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 31 |
Years ago I had seen a copy of Nazi helmet decal application specifications, (centered on vent hole, top edge of decal so many mm from bottom edge of vent, etc). In a perfect Nazi world I believe that every decal application would have been dead on perfect--where they wanted it. That was their specifications. The fact that we see many decals off center can only be due to human error IMO. Imagine that you are a decal applicator(ess) doing the same monotonous, boring job month after month. Perhaps your mind is wandering and thinking about the war and what might happen to you and your family if it is lost. Perhaps many of these SS decals are tilted to one side because in the applicators mind he/she was placing the SS runes perpendicular (to bottom edge of helmet)instead of to the edge of the decal by mistake. This would certainly not be outside of the norm for a boring, repeditive, monotonous job like helmet decal applicator. Such tasks can cause the mind to do strange things. I certainly do not believe that it was purposely done that way. See Goodapple Vol.I pp.59-61 for other examples.
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#83828
07/04/2006 05:09 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I think its very likely, especially at the time these M42 helmets were being decaled, that forced labor was used in the making/assembly of these helmets. If so their only concen if the decal was applied tilted is if would cause attention to them.
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#83829
07/04/2006 07:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 31
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 31 |
The helmet on p.59 that has a similarly tilted shield is an M35 blackie. This was made, I would think, long before slave labor in helmet factories was an issue.
If slave labor alone accounts for the M42s with tilted decals, why, as someone asked, are many of these tilted in the same manner, and not in other angles? I guess it is possible that certain slave laborers wanted to get back at the Reich by applying ****-eyed decals, but IMO the manner of consistency of the angle would seem to indicate a type of tunnel vision by the applicators due to repetition and monotony. Its as if they were applying/adjusting only the black runes of the decal and did not see the white shield. While the runes may look better slightly tilted to the left, the white shield is obviously crooked. If they liked the runes this way, could they not have designed a new decal with the runes tilted to the left in reference to the shield?
These M42 SS helmets have lot numbers that I believe place them in the narrow window between the time the CKL mark began to be used and the time that decals were dropped at the factories (8/28/43).
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#83830
07/04/2006 07:35 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The M35 I feel is a application error due to the lack of others, the ckl M42 show a pattern. The forced labor, which in my opinion is different than slave labor, is to counter the thought of " In a perfect Nazi world I believe that every decal application would have been dead on perfect--where they wanted it. That was their specifications. The fact that we see many decals off center can only be due to human error IMO. " Wether its done in simple error or on purpose I feel we never will know but its my opinion strict "by the book" ethnic Germans were most likely not the ones appling many of these decals at this stage.
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#83831
07/04/2006 08:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 226
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 226 |
Decal appliers....no, perhaps Danish or other west European labourers who went (voluntary or forced by their governments like in Denmark) to Germany to work could have been involved, I would not define them as "slave labourers", they were fed & paid a decent salary in most cases. It could of course also have been German citizens, but who knows, could also have been true slave labourers from the East or from the Concentration Camps. Pure speculation.
The angle and placement of the decals on these helmets does however give speculations if a specific template was used for a limited batch period, so keep on posting all your examples including numbers.
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#83832
07/05/2006 04:44 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 457
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 457 |
"Here's yer money back fer them souvenirs. Ya been scarin' hell outta our replacements." -Bill Mauldin's Willy & Joe.
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#83833
07/05/2006 06:57 AM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 101
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 101 |
Nice special helmets! Here is my contribution, a minor used ckl 68 with normal decal and nr. 2669. Interesting topic. Best, norge
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#83834
07/05/2006 12:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 191
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 191 |
Could it be possible that the decal moved,rotated, etc, after it was applied in the correct position? Just food for thought. I really do not know. I hope everyone has a nice day.
martin
Dem Deutschen Volk
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#83836
07/07/2006 04:38 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 414
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 414 |
Here is a M40 ET62 Batch 879. A little tilt the other way...........Jimmy
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#83837
07/07/2006 10:33 AM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312
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OP
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312 |
Viper,
Super looking helmet. Any more ckl in collections?
Bryan
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#83838
07/07/2006 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 390
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 390 |
42 ckl 64 batch 3140:the decal underneath being a bit tilted and "corrected" by another one applied over it
looking for minty/VG cond NS 35 decaled lids
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#83839
07/07/2006 01:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 106
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 106 |
Here is one for sale now on ebay! Nice original off set ckl. Here is on of the pictures the seller sent me. Ken
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#83840
07/10/2006 09:48 AM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312
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OP
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312 |
quote: Originally posted by shu: My tilted one. I've neverseen a repro or a fake with a tilted decal... yet! Shu
Shu, You spoke too soon! Soon after this thread a fake appears. Fake ET SS Decal It is the same helmet as Ken's post above.
Bryan
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#83841
07/10/2006 02:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 829
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 829 |
OK, Bryan. I shouldn't have said "never." By the way, I can't see the picture in the link. This one's "service unavailable." Shu
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#83842
07/13/2006 09:12 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 141
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 141 |
i have now rented this helmet for a while from charles.........but was wondering if anybody has a picture of a ss decal being applied in the factory or in the field...........nice helmet bryan , would'nt it be great if we could get all the tilted et lids owned by members on this forum together for a couple of great pictures, now that would be something . yes i think your right thats seems the best explanation to me " done so to keep the runes straight " i guess we will never know........ cheers gents
slim
slim
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#83843
07/13/2006 09:15 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49 |
quote: Originally posted by Foamspoon: Another ckl batch number 3022 Currently for sale at... www.bands-militaria.comFor Sale Link
Hey FS, That one has been there a longtime now. I dont like the decal on it, not saying its not good,just that its not to my liking.
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#83844
07/23/2006 10:44 AM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312
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OP
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 312 |
Here is another one on http://www.cammomilitairy.com/. A ckl production number 3159. Decal looks good. Bryan
Bryan
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