UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum HJ Engraved Bayonet - 1

For Discussion .... I have an HJ Engraved Bayonet, which I've had for a number of years, which I'd like to post for your comments & review.

Not too many seen in the books to compare these to, I'm afraid.

IMHO, I especially like the "worn" / "used" aspects to the Grip, Pommel, and HJ Diamond - and then finding the much better condition of the Blade & the Etch.....

These findings would be consistent with TR Period use & wear. I believe that this type of HJ Engraved Bayonet would spend MOST of the time - sheathed in the scabbard. As such, the exposed parts (Grip, Pommel, and HJ Diamond) would be exposed to sweaty palms, knocks, chips & wear & tear from an active HJ lad.

In my book, it just wouldn't make sense for a 'Post War' etch to be added to a Bayonet with so many faults to the Grip & HJ Diamond - but would enjoy opinions from those more knowledgeable than I am regarding these. Txs, Dave / dblmed

HJ Engraved Bayonet - 2

Grip Detail ..... Note the 'Real Deal' use seen on the Quillon, Grip Scales, HJ Diamond & Pommel.

This is consistent with repeated gripping, sweating palm & the 'knocks' of in-use wear & tear, for an HJ youth..... Dave/dblmed

HJ Engraved Bayonet - 3

Blade Etching of the HJ Motto: "Blut und Ehre!" within nice End Etched 'Fields'..... Condition is that which one would expect of a Blade, which was kept inside of the protective scabbard for 99% of the time, IMO.

There is also just a mini-notch on the blade - as the HJ Trooper probably just 'had' to whack or cut Something, with his Bayonet. Boys will be Boys.. Dave/dblmed

HJ Engraved / Etched Bayonet - 4

(You guys will correct me - but I should have titled this 'Etched HJ Bayonet' rather than Engraved....)

Note the Blade Etch - in a Closer Up View .... & then there is the Maker Mark: E u F Horster....


Yes, I'd prefer another maker than good old E u F Horster, but it is what it is! (Horster made plenty of good documented TR Blades, .... but was unfortunately copied & used on Post War blades as well.)

Presented to you for your Opinions & Discussion. Txs in Advance .... Dave/dblmed

However, IMHO, this Etched Bayonet seems best to fit the TR Period of manufacture & use.
Dave/dblmed

For Reference, Bob Hritz has also presented a fairly 'Similar' HJ Engraved Bayonet, by E.P. & S, at the following:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237336 Txs, Dave/dblmed

Dave, I really don�t like to be the bearer of bad news, but I have some concerns with this bayonet. The condition of the etch should approximate that of the trademark. It does not. And the etch itself is highly questionable. So I would be looking at the diamond to see if it was glued. And for any other signs of mischief as being an addition to the bayonet. FP

Dave,

I don't like this etching either I am afraid. It looks very much like an original bayonet that has been enhanced postwar with a grip emblem and an etch. I recall seeing this distinctive type of etch on early fakes way back in the 1960s and 1970s. Poorly done with a very dark grey-black background. The style of etch is also unknown as a H�rster example to me.

Perhaps Wayne will chime in on his thoughts on where this etch originated.

Indeed an interesting bayonet etch. Wayne Techet can really give some inside info on bayonet etches an perhaps this one. The etch does go the opposite of the motto on an HJ knife, but I'm cautiously optimistic and open to hear some further discussion on the piece.

Thanks Guys for all of your Observations and Comments .....hoping for even more!!

I knew that the Post would have some Controversy - so that's why it's so good to Show & Share ..... & Learn....(especially for me).

This Bayonet has so much dichotomy - that I felt it would be a real good Item for discussion by those, who are 'in the know..' Appreciate ALL Comments..... Dave/dblmed

Hi Dave. When looking at one of these bayonets it is good to see a close shot of the back of the grip to see how the rivets look--and a close up of the grip emblem to see how the recess was cut. This will usually show it was taken apart to add the etch and will show hand work as opposed to factory work when inserting the emblem.
There were quite a few of these bayonets around in the 70's and none of them were thought to be real. Yours is a bit unusual with the added panel around the motto-- But--the blade does not seem to have been plated over the etch and this is almost always a sign of a fake. Also the panel does not seem to have much detail compared to other period etches.

Hi Dave,
Hope you don't mind if I do a "piggy-back" on your thead? I feel it is appropriate to mention this here.
Due to all the fakes of "unusual" HJ knives and Bayo's since the 60's, I believe that many a "good" period HJ piece has been thrown away as a "Fantasy" while in actuality was a good piece. I don't know etchings like some of the guys here. But as Houston mentioned in another thread you know when you get something that is real when you buy it from the "source". Direct veteran or son of, in a grouping that has never seen a collector, dealer or "show".
Well two years ago I had a "Houston" experience when I purchased a "grouping" and this knife below was among the many items from the vets son. His dad told him it was a "battlefild find".

HJ - Bowie knife! Is it fake????

-wagner-

Houston has a good eye for these kinds of things (usually). I can see your face now Houston, "lighten up". A couple of things about this etching work does bother me a bit. First, as Houston points out, it does not look plated over which this specialty piece would be, and many of the fakes I have seen bear this style.
Second, I'm not in love with the stamped trademark. The Horster dress bayonets I have are all nicely stamped with all the detail of the stamping within the circles. And note the circles themselves and compare them to a Horster trademark used on dress bayonets. The trademark here has too much space within the top and bottom of the circles compaired to the trademarks used on bayonets. Third, Horster typically purchased their etched bayonets (to include specialty items) from the F.W.Holler Company. This etch does not have Holler's beautiful detailing within the etch and just looking at the overall etch it seems too long for the blade. It should have ended at the first wide loop, instead it continues and almost bumps into the (poor quality) trademark stamp. And JR makes a good point of the etch being on the obverse instead of the reverse.
I would have to pass on this one myself.
By the way, someone made reference to KNOWING for SURE that what they have MUST have a pre-45 item cuz they got it right from the vetern, veterns estate, son or daughter of the vetern, wife of the vetern ect. Any more, I only listen with passing interest about how the item was obtained. On etched dress bayonets nothing is more important than careful eye examination. Please read page 51 of my book for a small example.

I Do Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

Many Thanks to you all: Fred Prinz, ORPO, JR, Houston, Wagner & Von Ryan � for taking the time to perform a �look over� & add your assessments on this "unusual" Bayonet. I can�t remember for sure, but I think it is one of my many �Finds� from the old Great Western, in LA / Pomona (sure miss That event!)

Wagner, you�ve got a pretty neat looking HJ Bowie there � it doesn�t follow any of the �known� Rules. But it is � what it is! The 'Bowie' only has to make you Happy & give your pleasure to display it.

I�ve learned some really great pointers from all of your Postings � Txs! Some of the key areas which you�ve indentified for me are:

a) Placement of the Etch;
b) Whether the Etch conforms to any known Etches;
c) Whether any �Similar� Examples have been seen;
d) The always of concern E u F Horster TM;
e) Checking the obverse scale side;
f) And your other points�..

Since I�ve been collecting TR Items for > 35 years, I�ve come across a number of these �strange & unusual� pieces. We didn�t have Computers or Computer Resources or Digital Cameras � or the Net. The few good General TR �Dagger� books, were printed All in B & W (Black & White - Yes, like the 1st TV's) � with a Rare Color section, or two. (Printing itself, had only recently been invented & introduced to California So, sometimes you just bought an Item because it �looked� right or �felt� right � or you just liked it for a potential filler � "IF" it didn�t turn out to be OK - (& �IF� the price was considered reasonable.)

Now we have the Vast "Net" Reference & super Color Printed �Specific Subject or Single Subject� Text sources � like Ron W's "Waffenleite" & Von Ryan's 'Engraved ..." We also have the instantaneous ability to take Digital Photos & then attach Color Jpeg�s to an eMail & discuss an Item with buddies.

All of this is so very good � because it helps the hobby to progress � and it brings in New Collectors & Younger Collectors into the Hobby. (Yep, there is the downside of �. having to deal with the more sophisticated �Fakes� � but that is a part of collecting ANY valuable Items - be it Stamps, Coins or a Monet Oil.)

In spite of ALL of this exchange of knowledge, there will always be room for the differences of opinions between equally Skilled & Learned Collectors (much like the NSKK Leader Fray which is still going on.) I personally feel that expressing those varied opinions (which should be supported by some degree of Objective Evidence, or related TR Period sources), is ultimately Good for the Hobby.

It helps us All to think "What If" & to helps up to fill in those Big "Gaps of Knowledge" � for which no �Photographic� or �TR Published� Records or Sources have been found �.. YET. We keep Collecting & we Keep Learning. Just a part of WHY I Love this Hobby! Txs, Dave/dblmed

Well said Dave.
Not eveybody will always be right. And not everyone will always be wrong. And there are are lot of 3rd reich items that we have not seen, and a lot more that we will never see.

-wagner-

Wagner, You might want to take your bowie knife over to the HJ knife forum for some input there. While the large bowie blade is not what would normally be expected, a nickel silver hilt for an early piece is not out of line. And as Houston mentioned with Dave�s bayonet - while I can only really see one side. The right grip plate with yours does not show the somewhat imprecise cutting across of the grip diamonds like Dave�s (which very often indicates an altered item) which I think is a plus. But then I see what looks like aluminum rivets which can sometimes be a problem - but I�m not really sure if they might not be nickel silver as well? FP

Thanks FP. I sent the Bowie knife out to have the blade cleaned from all the rust so we could see if any makers marks are present. About an hour ago I got my answer. In luck there was a marking! But it was not what I was expecting..... How could this be??? I got it straight from the vets son who claimed his dad got it from the "battlefield"! It was in old caked dirt too. Everything else in the "grouping" was 100% period! Or is it indeed period? or postwar? as the marking seems to indicate?

I can read that one Sir.......... GERMANY!

But...But...But..It came from a VET!!

...From the Battlefield in France...

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

-wagner-

�Germany� is not a good thing for an item intended for early period domestic consumption.

I think that one of the most instructive threads about �Vets� stories I�ve seen was earlier this year on another forum. The collector who purchased the item straight from the Vet himself had a signed letter documenting the item. And had apparently even met with him where he was told the story first hand. It was at the end of the war and involved a tank to tank dual which is fairly well known, and had even been filmed, which is not that common just by itself.

In the letter it stated that the chrome or nickel plated P-38 pistol had been retrieved plated, not blued. From the image (that was not as good as it could have been) it looked like a postwar plating job. But even without seeing the pistol itself anybody who has collected guns for more than 40 seconds knows that German military issue pistols were not plated.

The general consensus being that you appreciate his service and thank the man. But that does not mean that you have to accept the �story� just because it came even from the Vet himself - if you know that it�s not true. And chalk it up to a failing memory which is something that none of us has control over. And from relatives or subsequent owners the further you get away from the source the more problems you have getting to the truth of the matter. FP

Fascinating Stuff in here Guys!!!

This is what TR Collecting is ALL about to me.
Intelligent discussion by various Collectors, with varying degrees of Experience & Collecting History. Puzzles to solve & Riddles to finish! Just plain detective work & fun!!

Wagner, YEP ....'GERMANY' on a blade 'during' the TR is 99% usually Not what you hope to find

But, it seems like there were 'Export' Blades made & sent abroad, with the 'G' marking - and during the TR Period. I could well be wrong, but I believe that I've read this in References. (But then ..... we've got to figure out that HJ Diamond???) Dave/dblmed

Yes, I agree Dave this is what it's all about. I wanted to share this real "Vet" experience with you guys since I think you would appreciate it.

Yes, a "battlefield pick-up" according to the Vets son. And yes, I got it for next to nothing. It was just a "toss in".

Where did the Vet get it? And when? After May 45??
Sure looks like it.

I have no problem accepting this as Post-war. And I sure know what it means to have "Germany" stamped on it. You could imagine my surprise when that rust was ground off and I was sent the above photo.
But that HJ diamond, as Dave mentions, does look original to the knife.
What are these so called "Bowie" HJ's? Fantasy?

Or were they intended for the American "market" at sometime?

-wagner-

This style was manufactured in the early 1950s with a symbole similar to the Boy Scout emblem in the handle replacing the HJ Raute. Evidently, TR manufacturers were using up left over HJ hilts and combinations with the bowie style blade for the US market.
I found many different styles in military surplus stores in the midwest.
Some of the SA blades were made into throwing knives.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thank you Ron! That makes a lot of sense. While we see some period blades with the more bowie knife type of points they are generally shorter. That blade was a little too long for the European market, but works well as something for the American market using leftover parts. Of course the idea of SA knife blades being made into throwing knives is a little disturbing. But I guess is not any different than sword handles made into candlesticks. FP

Thanks Ron, It does make sense. -wagner-

Many of the 1950s import had the trademark of a pick axe with a triangle shaped mount. Pic was the name on the TM with Solingen.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Excellent Comments...

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan