#52202
08/12/2007 12:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Thanks. I'll do some good motto pics later today.
Dave
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#52203
08/12/2007 12:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
Dave,
Very interesting...Thanks....
Lou Bell
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#52204
08/12/2007 02:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,621
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,621 |
Great job,Dave.Is there crossgraining on the blade ? Thanks.
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#52205
08/12/2007 07:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
There is crossgraining on the blade but it is faint and I cannot get a good photo. Here is the motto:
36.JPG (13.27 KB, 1419 downloads)
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#52206
08/12/2007 07:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Closer left
37.JPG (16.11 KB, 1398 downloads)
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#52207
08/12/2007 07:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Closer right
38.jpg (12.14 KB, 1385 downloads)
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#52208
08/12/2007 07:24 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Back to the scabbard. Looking at it more, I think it is 100% fake. Here is a shot of the top. The fake is on the left and a real Eickhorn is on the right.
32.JPG (81.51 KB, 1377 downloads)
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#52209
08/12/2007 07:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
It is visibly narrower. Here it is on the left with a Gembruch scabbard on the right.
33.JPG (52.23 KB, 1382 downloads)
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#52210
08/12/2007 07:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Here is the width of the fake.
35.JPG (32.05 KB, 1356 downloads)
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#52211
08/12/2007 07:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
And now the Eickhorn
34.jpg (31.42 KB, 1360 downloads)
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#52212
08/12/2007 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142 |
What is size of the Gembruch, please?
Ralf
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#52213
08/12/2007 09:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Great stuff, Dave! If there is a sequel to the "SS" book, a chapter on fakes, including this information, would be very appropriate.
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#52214
08/12/2007 10:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Grump, Trying to find fake SS daggers, unless it is those terrible $20 chained jobs, is very hard. Unfortunately, people who own the halfway convincing ones are trying to sell them as real I was lucky to borrow this one. I will probably buy it to make sure it does not go anywhere. Also, apologies for one of my pictures of a real blade above. I posted a blade from 1939 when the fake is 1937. Here are two REAL 1937 Eicks:
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#52215
08/12/2007 10:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
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#52216
08/12/2007 10:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,244 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,244 Likes: 1 |
Thanks Dave That was absolutely THE best presentation of how to tell fake daggers. Most of the guys just say its fake and they dont like it with going into the detail like you did. My hats off to you!
Bob
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1 member likes this:
kingtiger |
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#52217
08/12/2007 10:43 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512 |
Dave, Just a line on the smell of leather...It smells of leather for about 15 years or so. Ivan.
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#52218
08/13/2007 09:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 86
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 86 |
Hi Dave, Great job, you put allot of work into that and it shows. Thanks for sharing and your time.
Matt
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#52219
08/13/2007 10:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Thanks. I hope other who can access a reasonable fake will do similar presentations. To answer questions: The Gembruch scabbard measured 16.04mm wide compared to the 16.02 mm width for the REAL Eick. I have been measuring and weighing SS dagger components for a while, but never looked at the width of the throatpiece until now. I need to dig out the original specs The leather not only smelled of leather but looked new as well. Dave
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#52220
08/13/2007 11:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
Dave, Nice info, and well presented. Sooooooo moral of the story, handle the "real" daggers, ask the SR collectos lots of questions, read the textbooks you will avoid getting ripped off! Sounds like a Clark Howard statement!
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#52221
08/14/2007 12:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66 |
quote: Originally posted by Dave Hohaus: Thanks. I hope other who can access a reasonable fake will do similar presentations. Dave
I hope so as well. Thanks for taking the point and leading the way. Before someone comments, I know books exist and I am reading them as fast as possible, however, there is nothing else like the internet. It can be the greatest educational tool of mankind if used correctly.
React, Adapt and Persevere!
Adventure Expedition Specialist X11.com
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#52222
08/14/2007 12:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Skip,
Apart from Fred Stephens magnficent opus called "Reproduct ? Recognition?" there are few references.
Dave
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#52223
08/14/2007 01:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66 |
A whole new era starting right here! To be able to interact with the author is so much more educational and truly reinforces the learning experience.
React, Adapt and Persevere!
Adventure Expedition Specialist X11.com
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#52224
08/19/2007 09:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
The biggest RED FLAG every kid can see is the motto. It's not only different from Eickhorn motto, it has this well known for years, weird "M" in "Meine". Primitive fake.
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#52225
08/20/2007 01:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,039 Likes: 4
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,039 Likes: 4 |
Not all mottos with this style M are fake. I have an authentic one. There were different variations of Fraktur used during the Third Reich. Look at the N in the word Nimmer ("never" in English) in this poster from the March 1933 Reichstag election. Same fluted style. Looks like the big H himself approved of this.
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#52226
08/20/2007 05:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
The problem is Eickhorn never used it Besides, we've been always told that "M" like that was associated more with Spain than Germany. What's the maker of your blade, Skyline?
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#52227
08/20/2007 12:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,039 Likes: 4
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,039 Likes: 4 |
I agree about the marked Eickhorn. Mine is an unmarked M36. The motto has several differences from the one shown by Dave. The tang is forged with the seven circle mark.
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#52228
10/18/2007 12:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 27
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 27 |
(Reg. the fake dagger on page 2.) Bloody Hell. And I was scared collecting Japanese Swords. What a mine field (ex. the pun). This one aside, have there been cases where dealers have been duped and onsold a piece unwittingly? ___________ R.R.
tread lightly
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#52229
10/25/2007 08:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2 |
Dave,
We broached this subject at the MAX, but I would like to see it applied to the dagger in your possession. What is the distance from the forte of the blade, the the last letter "e" in "Treue"?
FJS
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#52230
10/25/2007 09:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
I need to find it and measure it.
Dave
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#52231
10/27/2007 08:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2 |
Dave, I know that you are a busy fellow - but I would be pleased to see that information when you can get around to. Thanks
FJS
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#52232
10/27/2007 08:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Dave: In reviewing this thread I noticed one other feature to the scabbard that appears wrong. I think if you measure the width of the lower scabbard fitting on the fake you may find it's narrower than a real one. Jim
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#52233
10/27/2007 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
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Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102 |
Now i've two things to measure.
Dave
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#52234
11/01/2007 01:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Jim,
The lower scabbard fitting measures out the same as real ones in depth, width, and height.
Fred,
Look and the fourth picture at the start of the thread.
Dave
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#52235
11/01/2007 05:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Dave: Here's the reason I asked you to measure the lower scabbard fitting: Repro on the left. Original on the right. The repro is much narrower than an original. Also note the size of the screw heads.
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#52236
11/01/2007 05:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2 |
Of course, Dave, you are correct. I should have gone back over the photos to see the information. Interesting issue about the position of the motto.
Jim M is right about some of the proportions, even so someone has gone to a lot of trouble to create an item from start to finish - it is a very appealing copy.
Although the item has differences to the pre-war originals, and post war parts Eickhorn pieces, I would not be surprised if this had been created by, or via, Eickhorn. The volume of order that Atwood would have been able to place a "cooperative company", might have been sufficient to justify a small production run.
FJS
PS, I haven't forgotten about the original etching sheet for the trademark that I told you about - I just haven't been able to find it. Will let you see it as soon as I unearth it.
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#52237
11/04/2007 11:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,099 Likes: 102
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Fred,
Tell us more about post-war Eickhorn parts. That is a new one to me.
Jim,
Screws appear the same. As for the ball, I'd have to do more checking. My memory says that there are subtle differences in shape, even in early daggers, but I could be wrong.
Also, I think that the scabbard fittings were supplier items for all makers and not in-house pieces.
Dave
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#52238
11/05/2007 12:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 2
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 2 |
Good work Dave very interesting!
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#52239
08/31/2008 06:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Very interesting tread Dave.
Lh 600
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#52240
09/03/2008 08:47 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 359
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 359 |
Dave, I think guides like this are excellent and have bookmarked it in case I ever buy an SS dagger. This can be Scary Stuff to the first time buyer especially if you can't see the piece in your hand.
Rhys (pronounced as in "Reese's Pieces")
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#52241
02/06/2010 05:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2 |
Awesome work Dave
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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