#50420
09/05/2006 08:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 149
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OP
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 149 |
Is this the real deal? Honor dagger
Got Lugers?
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#50421
09/05/2006 09:21 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3 |
probably not - but i bid just in case
GDC silver member #393
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#50422
09/05/2006 09:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 132
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 132 |
Compare it to the picture in Johnson's volume II, page 229. This guy is brand new to Ebay with a zero feedback. Very good description.
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#50423
09/05/2006 10:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
Looks convincing, but I can't imagine sticking something like this on eBay.
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#50424
09/05/2006 10:54 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,026 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,026 Likes: 31 |
These are pics from a presumable original navy honor dagger. I have saved these certain pics (and several more) already in 2004 but how hard I try I cannot remember any more from where they did come. I cannot imagine that such a piece will be at ebay. You might say never say never but I would be careful. I am no ebay member, could anybody (ebay-member) ask the seller for a pic from the small side (not full front or full reverse) of the pommel eagle?
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#50425
09/06/2006 12:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 132
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 132 |
Sometimes when it appears to good to be true.... it's being sold on Ebay by a brand new person. Since he does not take Paypal, if he is pulling off a scam, the buyer will lose.
Be very careful.
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#50426
09/06/2006 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539 |
I cannot get the link to work. I did a property search on your link and came up with item #110029337679. I tried that on a search and it came up blank too.
Anyone else see it?
<img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-4/20265/XBQKF-me109-transparent.gif" width=115 height=34>
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#50427
09/06/2006 12:32 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 132
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 132 |
The listing has disappeared. Either removed by the Ebay Police or an offer that the the new member could not refuse.
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#50428
09/06/2006 12:56 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3 |
*sigh*, i wonder where this will turn up next...
GDC silver member #393
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#50429
09/06/2006 01:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25 |
The Eban Gestapo got to it and pulled it already, no doubt alerted to it by an interested party. I didn't get a chance to see the listing, can anyone post pics?
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#50430
09/06/2006 12:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,079
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,079 |
I recall a Navy Honor Dagger being on ebay about 5 years? ago. It was sold as a copy/parts dagger back then by a british source for about $1500 US. This could be it resurfacing. I also saw one in a Manions' sale, but it did not have the correct crossguard.
"Mountain Dew or Crab Juice?" Homer "God that stuff is awful. I'll have a Crab Juice!" The Simpsons
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#50431
09/10/2006 11:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
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#50432
09/10/2006 11:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
Here are the pics in case it gets pulled again.
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#50433
09/10/2006 11:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
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#50434
09/10/2006 11:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
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#50435
09/10/2006 11:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
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#50436
09/10/2006 11:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
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#50437
09/11/2006 12:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,970
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,970 |
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#50438
09/11/2006 07:06 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Based on the pictures all I can say is that the dagger is totally correct and looks original. This is based on the fact that all the components are correct and have been assembled correctly. What I'm not sure of is if the pictores actually represent the item for sale or if they were 'borrowed' from some other source (happens some times). There is also a possibility that the dagger was postwar assembled from original components. But as it stands the dagger looks perfectly good and original.
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#50439
09/11/2006 07:19 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I want to add that I only saw the reverse of the blade and I'm not sure if the Eickhorn TM has either faded or is missing all together. It should be there.
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#50440
09/11/2006 08:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,026 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,026 Likes: 31 |
As already suggested, ask the seller for a "side view" pic of the pommel, then we will see if these are his own pics. If he cannot foward you with such a pic I think he is not the real owner of this piece/these pics.
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#50441
09/11/2006 08:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,248
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,248 |
AT THE JAG TOM W. SAID A GOOD COPY OF THIS DAGGER WOULD SELL FOR $2,000.
BOB C Buying big and small collections Kriegsmarine daggers and Samurai swords
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#50442
09/11/2006 09:52 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Good copies are hard to find. Many have the wrong crossguards, have the wrong throats and the wrong throat screws. This one seems to have all the right parts. The blade resembles the one shown in Tom Wittmann's navy book on page 426, at least from the available view. The close resemblance to the originals in all details makes me suspect that the pictures could be 'borrowed'.
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#50443
09/12/2006 12:38 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3 |
GDC silver member #393
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#50444
09/12/2006 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539 |
The seller has zero feedback - it will be risky for whoever tries to purchase. After being burned too many times, I have had to adopt a healthy suspicion. I agree with Manfred and Wotan - these could be "borrowed" pictures. As usual, both of these fine GDC members have excellent instincts. Moreover, I recall seeing a Navy Honor that sold about two or three years ago. The site was this one by Richard Williams: http://warrelics.com/That Navy Honor that sold at that site had very, very similar discoloration to the grip as this one. Does anyone else remember the dagger I am talking about? Here is the cache that I was able to find from the internet. I only found it because I knew where to look. The cache URL is still there. Notice that the seller's description is very similar. It is almost like he "lifted" parts of it verbatim. Notice the pictures also. Anything look familiar? They do to me. NOTE: the pictures you will see are from the cache of warrelics site of the dagger that sold. These pictures are still available on the internet even though the dagger sold long ago. They are NOT from the E-bay posting._________________________________________________________________________________ Navy Honor that sold at warrelics.com(150) HONOR DAGGER OF THE NAVY W/ DIAMONDS ( "EHRENDOLCH DES KRIEGSMARINE MIT BRILLIANTEN" ) IN THE ORIGINAL "EICKHORN" DELUXE BLUE LEATHER PRESENTATION CASE
This is one of sixteen examples of this UNIQUELY DESIGNED and ELEGANT German naval officer's daggers, known to have been hand-crafted by the prestigious, Solingen-based "CARL EICKHORN" edged weapons manufacturer between 1938 and 1944. This special "presentation" Kriegsmarine dagger was designed, circa 1938, by the famous German artist and Third Reich edged weapons designer, Paul Casburg, for exclusive production by the "Carl Eickhorn" firm. The first known actual "presentation" of this specially-designed naval dagger was in December, 1939, when Admiral ALBRECHT was bestowed his dagger, now known "officially" as the "Honor Dagger of The German Navy". Although virtually identical to a standard, or "normal" Kriegsmarine officer's dress dagger, or dirk, in its basic design and overall dimensions, this special dagger was MAGNIFICENTLY "different" in many ways. The newly designed pommel was larger and more elegant, and the SILVER swastika was set with SEVENTEEN "diamonds" ( actually very tiny "rose-cut" diamonds, or so-called "mine-chips" ) ( Photo ). The differently shaped, genuine "AFRICAN IVORY" grip was wrapped in a 3 mm. wide gold "oakleaf" band, instead of the usual twisted brass wire. The "new" crossguard was of a simpler, more "streamlined" design, and the former "fouled-anchor" naval motif was eliminated from the new, more rectangular, center area of both sides of the crossguard ( Photo ). The most noticable and probably the most quickly recognizable design change, however, was in this new "honor" dagger's scabbard. The radically redesigned, "fire-gilded" brass scabbard was beautifully decorated, on both sides with a continuous ( vertical ) row of "raised" oakleaves and acorns ( Photo ). The 10 1/4 inch long blade is made, in the "general" configuration of all other naval dirk blades, but is rendered in a beautiful "maiden-hair" pattern, GENUINE, or "TRUE DAMASCUS" steel ( Photo ). The blade was also made by "Carl Eickhorn", although this blade, like the dagger presented to "Wolfgang Luth" ( the famous U-boat ace, and "diamonds" winner ) by Adm. Karl Donitz, does not bear the "intaglio" style "Eickhorn" logo. When disassembled, the dagger pommel is seen to be internally stamped with a "4" ( Photo ), while the crossguard is stamped either "6", or "9" ( Photo ). These internally stamped numbers, found on virtually all known original examples of this "honor" dagger, or thought to indicate assembly checks, or Eickhorn factory "accountability" numbers, and are very frequently not "matching" in a completely original piece. This particular "honor" dagger comes in its "ORIGINAL "EICKHORN" marked, so-called "second pattern", dark blue Moroccan-leather, PRESENTATION CASE, which measures 18 inches X 5.0 inches X 2.0 inches.The central portion of the case lid is decorated with a gold-foil-embossed, Kriegsmarine-style, "spread-wing" eagle and swastika, within a "smooth", or "debossed" leather rectangle. Much of the gold embossing has worn away, but the embossed design is still clearly visible ( Photo ). The bottom part of the presentation case has a plush, black velvet covering, over a thin wood underlayment, with a "cut-out", or recessed area, which accepts the "honor" dagger, in its scabbard, PERFECTLY ( Photo ). The interior of the case's lid is covered in a "padded", and contoured, white SATIN, which bears a gold-foil printed, or embossed, "1941-1945" pattern, "stylized" squirrel "EICKHORN" logo, in the right lower corner; which is about 50% "worn-off" ( Photo). The flat bottom of the case is covered in a heavy, black, "tar-paper" like material ( Photo ). The two, rectangular, brass catches, which secure the lid, have rounded, sliding bosses ( Photo ). The overall condition of this RARE, and completely ORIGINAL, "Honor Dagger of the Kriegsmarine with Diamonds" is very good PLUS. There is some slight staining of the IVORY grip, primarily on the verso, but the grip is NOT cracked, or chipped, and the very delicate, spiral "oakleaf" band is NOT broken, or repaired ( Photo ). The diamond-encrusted eagle and swastika pommel has no missing stones ( Photo ). The pommel, crossguard, and scabbard still have some of their original, factory "fire-gilding" ( Photo ). The genuine damascus blade is not rusted, or pitted, and has not been sharpened, shortened, or repointed. The beautiful "maiden-hair" damascus pattern is still very prominent ( Photo ). The brass scabbard is in overall very good PLUS condition, and not dented. The condition of the original presentation case is very good, although it does show some age and wear, and the leatherette "hinge" on the back of the case is split, but still very solidly and tightly attaches the lid to the case's bottom section( Photo ). All of the above minor defects and signs of age, and usage, notwithstanding, this is still a very nice, all- original example of a very RARE ( one of sixteen! ), ELEGANT, and BEAUTIFUL, and "CASED", "Honor Dagger of the Kriegsmarine with Diamonds"!
ONE OF THE RAREST, AND MOST BEAUTIFUL, OF ALL THE "THIRD REICH'S" DAGGERS!!!!
PRICE UPON REQUEST. SOLD ___________________________________________________________________________________ None of this is proof or anything that this fellow does not have this dagger. Perhaps he was the buyer, and is using the old photographs. Or, perhaps he is a liar and a potential thief and fraud. Buyer beware - it is your money. I just find it hard to believe this is all a coincidence.
<img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-4/20265/XBQKF-me109-transparent.gif" width=115 height=34>
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#50445
09/12/2006 12:57 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25 |
OK I'll say it, something stinks. The seller lifts the pics from Ron Diestelhorst's site and uses a near verbatim description, has a "0" feedback, and fails to mention where he got the pics or the piece. While Borse is right that none of this proves anything but I for one believe circumstantial evidence until proven otherwise. I think it's a scam, plain and simple.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#50446
09/12/2006 03:34 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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In that case I just stick with this one because its mine and its paid for.
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#50447
09/12/2006 07:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5 |
Ronnie Distlehorst DID indeed own Albrecht's Honor Dagger and the pictures DO look like the orignal. I have handled that dagger and the oak leaf wrap on the grip is definately the one Ronnie had in the 1970s, so it is quite possible it is his and the auction may be from him. Ron Weinand Weinand Militaria
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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#50448
09/12/2006 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539 |
The odds would have to be in favor of the same individual buying the dagger through Richard J. William's War Relics website a few years ago, and now selling the exact same dagger using the exact same old pictures that are in cache memory on the web. Also, Sturmbrigade came to the same conclusion as I did and posted his discovery of the link a few minutes before mine. I was composing the pictures and the description to post, and he must have discoverd it the same time. Great minds think alike. Thanks Sturm. A Navy Honor is worth (last I checked) about a quarter of a million dollars. The E-bay aution is up to $910 as I post this. Does anyone really believe they are going to get this deal of the century? Hey - maybe, right? But be careful. Manfred - pretty dagger you have there. Love the case too.
<img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-4/20265/XBQKF-me109-transparent.gif" width=115 height=34>
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#50449
09/12/2006 12:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 788 Likes: 2
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 788 Likes: 2 |
The item has been pulled again. (For no good reason that I can see.)
This auction is a good example of several reasons why I no longer shop on ebay.
You don't know who you're dealing with, or if you'll be able to reach them in case there is a problem.
Good pictures are no comfort. They might be "borrowed". Even if they actually have the thing, there is no way to be sure that they'll send it to you. Ebay's so called "investigating team" isn't going to do you any good.
The auctions pop in and out, over and over again, for no apparent reason.
I'm sure that you can pick up some good deals, but the stress of uncertainty is too much for me. I'd rather pay extra for the guarantee.
You can call me a "lazy collector" if you want to. But, I prefer doing business with estabished dealers, whose livelihood depends upon their availability and reputation.
Just my opinion.
Best Regards, Robert
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#50450
09/12/2006 01:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 149
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OP
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 149 |
The auction is still running. I asked the seller for more pics and she replied, "I dont have more pictures of the dagger." "(The ones posted in the auction) are detailed enough I think." I think the listing is bogus.
Got Lugers?
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#50451
09/12/2006 02:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,026 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,026 Likes: 31 |
That is exactly why I have asked for a certain pic which was not in the mass of wonderful pics of the original offering and could only be delivered if the seller would have this certain dagger in hands. If the seller cannot forward any more pics as the old ones existing from the years ago deal I would be extremely cautious in this certain ebay case. Sturmbrigade, thank you very much for digging out this link. It was exactly where I once got my downloaded pics but could not remember any more.
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#50452
09/12/2006 04:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,539 |
dutchdrummer is correct - the auction is still running and is up to $2,002.
I believe someone is going to take a bath. You cannot alert bidders with information you may have any longer, because E-Bay will block your communication with that person.
<img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-4/20265/XBQKF-me109-transparent.gif" width=115 height=34>
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#50453
09/12/2006 04:55 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Boerse: Thanks, I just finished the case yesterday.
So it is @2002 now going for $250,000. There is always hope, I guess. I didn't see any mention of a reserve price. Maybe the 'owner' is just trying to find out how much it would fetch on the open market. The problem with that is that a collector with the means to seriously consider purchasing a dagger of that caliber would not bother participating in this here auction.
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#50454
09/12/2006 05:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 788 Likes: 2
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 788 Likes: 2 |
It is still running. (My mistake) Looks like they might have a shill bidder. A member since April 2005 with a (0) history?
Best Regards, Robert
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#50455
09/12/2006 06:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 149
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OP
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 149 |
B�rse, you can still contact ebay members by clicking on the "community" tab at the top of the page and entering the name of the member you want to get in touch with.
Got Lugers?
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#50456
09/12/2006 06:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 609
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 609 |
This is a very fishy auction for all the reasons already given. Bidding on this would be a BIG mistake. I'm an ebay seller with thousands of feedbacks so i've been at it for a long time. I would not trust this one with a ten foot pole. The only way would be to actually meet the person and exchange the cash upon actually having the dagger in hand. They do not accept paypal only a specific type of money order and cash. This is, IMO, nothing more then a scam.
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#50457
09/12/2006 09:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,945
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,945 |
A 0 feedback seller,and a 0 feedback bidder.It would be interesting to see the end result of this auction and if the dagger is as pictured and delivered.
You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time
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#50458
09/12/2006 09:43 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 3 |
I contacted the seller and she(?) told me that the dagger came from Germany - uh duh!! i asked where in Germany and was told out of an estate. She also refused eschrow, despite the fact that money bookers offers a prefectly legit service (this was one of the preferrred payment methods).I then asked if it was a coincidence that the pics were exactly the same as War relics.. no real surprise that i havent had an answer
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#50459
09/12/2006 11:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,873 Likes: 7 |
I asked for more pics and just got some more of the same pics from War Relics. I wouldn't touch this auction with a barge pole.
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