UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum TKRing Mfg. Method

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
I should add one thing here that I spent about 10 years living next door to the owner of one of the largest tool and die making shops in the Mid West. Eric and I had numerous conversations about moldmaking and casting and I spent many hours in his shop observing what was going on. His shop,for example, made all the molds out of aluminum for the NFL football helmets and also all the molds for GMs dashboards. This was long before I had any interest in Tk rings and the like. The one thing I came away with from these discussions from long ago was that die casting was the way to go for uniformity and precision. In his opinion rubber mold casting and the like was only useful for amateur efforts and one off jewelry works.
Jim

If I do understand you right you are talking about die casting or in other words preasure injection casting. Technically it is possible, but think about very complicated equipment, much more complicated dies compared to die struck, and energy waste , and many other troubles. This method is good for aluminum, zinc etc. in hundreds of thousands pieces. Those are reasons why you never hear about silver die casting even today.

quote:

If I do understand you right you are talking about die casting or in other words preasure injection casting. Technically it is possible, but think about very complicated equipment, much more complicated dies compared to die struck, and energy waste , and many other troubles. This method is good for aluminum, zinc etc. in hundreds of thousands pieces. Those are reasons why you never hear about silver die casting even today.

hapur:
You are understanding me correctly. The dies made by this company were used to make hundreds of thousands of examples.
Would you also post an example of one of your Honor ring copies as well.
Jim

Hapur,� Thanks for the additional input.� OK.� If I got it correctly. Gaspare�s steel punch is in fact then a male �hobbing� punch.� From the look of it, not the polished and hardened kind that we might see now to make a female die from steel. � But something to make a highly compressed cardboard female die.� With a (more or less) flat face steel punch at the end of the ram pushing the brass blank into the die cavity to form the ring. Correct? Not something that I have seen myself, but I am always willing to learn.� PS: �Puanson� = �punch� the male part, with the female part being the "die". (with in typical U.S. fashion, the terms sometimes used generically and/or interchangeably.)

Josias, As for Don Boyles�s email, I would really like to see, or otherwise have the original Gahr German text word for word.� I am not trying to be argumentative, so please permit me to explain:

I have some period German sword blades that are marked �Gu�stahl�.� I had them in my collection for years thinking that they were made from cast steel - right?� Wrong!! What the Gu�stahl marking meant was �crucible� steel which is an entirely different matter. And that is just one example.

And I am wondering what the documentation actually says - because of the multiple different methods that could have been used. Best Regards to All,� FP

hapur,, please email me [yours isn't working], [email protected]
I'd like to show you some photos..


There were a few different methods of making mass produced rings during the 3rd reich period..Hapurs information is of great value here for the members,,I thank you again..

My die is the master die. The working dies were made from this. Afterwards it went into storage until the working dies either got too worn to produce a good copy or they broke..

Here is the ring itself:

inside:

Gaspare, Thank you for posting the images, they really do help visualizing the process. If I understood Hapur correctly, here is a simulation of the (inside) "punch" portion of the set. With it pushing the sheet metal into the cavity of the die. While ordinarily I would think that the punch would be made of steel because of a lack of lateral support. Perhaps he will correct me (?). FP

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Gaspare, Thank you for posting the images, they really do help visualizing the process. If I understood Hapur correctly, here is a simulation of the (inside) "punch" portion of the set. With it pushing the sheet metal into the cavity of the die. While ordinarily I would think that the punch would be made of steel because of a lack of lateral support. Perhaps he will correct me (?). FP

A little hard to explain with my poor english
What I'm trying to say is that there were no punch at all. Best example is cardboard. You have only female die, matrix. Place on it sheet metal, cardboard on top and turn on press. There could be many materials used leather, rubber, aluminum (not in the war time) but before etc. It may sound not seriously but with this thin sheetmetal and since there is no need for making clear picture inside the ring this is the right way. Probably better would be if I took photosession when doing something like this. When I started to do this many things sounded illogical and "kitchen grade", I didn't believe my grandfather and other old timers who have worked for themselves and for serious jewelry manufacture in 1930ies-50ies with hundreds of employees. Now I have a lot of heavy industrial equipment (I doubt that most of german jewelry firms had it at war time) and I'm more than sure that there is no easier and faster way to do this. And again you have to keep in mind that this was not really jewelry what you are collecting now, it was period massproduction (modern china if I can say so).

Hapur, Your English is just fine and a lot, lot, better than whatever remaining ability I have with my German.

I certainly welcome a photo session showing the process because it never hurts to see something in operation.

From what you said it seems to use the same underlying concept as that used with �Monroe Effect� metal shaping. With instead of the shock wave of an explosive charge being the force to shape the metal. Using cardboard (or leather, rubber etc.) to transmit the force from a press that is pushing the metal into the die.

Not something that I have encountered myself. But I�ve also never been a mass market/mass production jewelry maker either. And can see that with relatively low cost items you would not want to have a lot of investment tied up in tooling if you can avoid it.

It sounds to me like your grandfather and the �old timers� were some very smart individuals making the best use of what was available to them. Best Regards, FP

HAPUR - Show us a pic of your skull!! Ple-e-e-eease!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
HAPUR - Show us a pic of your skull!! Ple-e-e-eease!!!

Josias, I'm in proces of moving to countryside, so most of the things are in boxes. I do not have one complete on hand and home comp is already in box. Hope I'll be able to show it next week. Will make some pics of my "baby" press today.

I have absolutly no experiance or knowlage on jewlery design or making, but my question is about the engraving method. Wouldnt it have been easier to engrave the mettal after it was pressed, while still flat, as opposed to doing it after it was rounded, as I assume would have to be the case if it was cast. Anyone have an opinion or knowlage on this?

quote:

Originally posted by vikodlak:
I have absolutly no experiance or knowlage on jewlery design or making, but my question is about the engraving method. Wouldnt it have been easier to engrave the mettal after it was pressed, while still flat, as opposed to doing it after it was rounded, as I assume would have to be the case if it was cast. Anyone have an opinion or knowlage on this?

No doubt engraving on a flat/open surface is much easier than on a formed ring.
I personally verified it when an old and very experienced engraver of my town did the job in my SSHR to wear.

Ric

As promised my "baby"

Manufacturer plate.

Step 1, place a die in press

Step 2, place silver bar on die.

step 3, punch it.

Done.

Now it's time to "remove casting flaws and do handfinish "

Aw common hapur, that ain't no RUBBER MOLD!!!

Thanks very much for your appreciated, very enlightening and well received contributions.

Best regards,

John

If there is somebody interested I can take pics of whole process from here to finished ring.

Go for it hapur:
It's about time this process was documented completely. BTW if you'll email me at the address in my profile I'd like to discuss obtaining one of your copies.
Jim

YES - Show us the whole process!! Thanks!!

OK, will make pics of soldering and bending tomorrow. Skull making and attaching will be able to show only next week because those dies are already at new workshop.

great info hapur,,,please do show us all the steps to finished product,,,

quote:

Originally posted by hapur:
As promised my "baby"

Hapur,
Simply Beautiful!
Rare as well. Thanks for giving us a peek.
It is just as I had imagined.
Cheers, Pauli

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):


I certainly welcome a photo session showing the process because it never hurts to see something in operation.

From what you said it seems to use the same underlying concept as that used with �Monroe Effect� metal shaping. With instead of the shock wave of an explosive charge being the force to shape the metal. Using cardboard (or leather, rubber etc.) to transmit the force from a press that is pushing the metal into the die.

Not something that I have encountered myself. But I�ve also never been a mass market/mass production jewelry maker either. And can see that with relatively low cost items you would not want to have a lot of investment tied up in tooling if you can avoid it.

It sounds to me like your grandfather and the �old timers� were some very smart individuals making the best use of what was available to them. Best Regards, FP

ok, here is soft punch. Sheet metal, on top aluminum (yes I know it's not war time, but had not piece of cardbord on hand. Proces is the same in general, with slight diferences)

punch it

soft material removed

Another "casted" ring

hapur, from Germany?

and many other things from the Reich where done in the same fashion, and it's a common fashion and not exotic at all.

quote:

Originally posted by b.collector:

quote:

Originally posted by vikodlak:
I have absolutly no experiance or knowlage on jewlery design or making, but my question is about the engraving method. Wouldnt it have been easier to engrave the mettal after it was pressed, while still flat, as opposed to doing it after it was rounded, as I assume would have to be the case if it was cast. Anyone have an opinion or knowlage on this?

No doubt engraving on a flat/open surface is much easier than on a formed ring.
I personally verified it when an old and very experienced engraver of my town did the job in my SSHR to wear.

Ric

Who made your ring Ric?

What a wonderful machine your 'baby' is!! Was she a hand operated with crank in the beginning and then converted to electric motor??

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:
What a wonderful machine your 'baby' is!! Was she a hand operated with crank in the beginning and then converted to electric motor??

Are you kidding? Motor that is running now is 15 H/P (my feeling is that could be bigger). Do you imagine how many hands are needed to run her.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
hapur, from Germany?

and many other things from the Reich where done in the same fashion, and it's a common fashion and not exotic at all.

Yes during war time absolutely most of the things were done this way. Most medals, badges, buckles, daggers and bayonets etc.

Hapur, Thank You for a very interesting and informative photo session. I am looking forward to the continuation. From the placement of the upper drive wheel - I'm wondering if perhaps originally the screw press came from a factory with an overhead drive belt system? With an external power source driving all of the machinery as was the custom of earlier times for many factories?

Thanks Again for the work you put into making this not only an interesting. But very educational thread. Best Regards, FP

Hi, originally motor was located on press. But moving company that moved press to my garage dropped it and broke "hooks" for motor. And since frame is cast iron I couldn't weld them back, so I went easiest way and placed motor on table you see now.

hapur its very intersting info and photo !!!
many thx.
wanna ask you : you show us original press-form
from Otto Gahr ?

I have understood, it have made hapur :-)

Could you tell us how the die itself was made?

quote:

Originally posted by hapur:
Hi, originally motor was located on press. But moving company that moved press to my garage dropped it and broke "hooks" for motor. And since frame is cast iron I couldn't weld them back, so I went easiest way and placed motor on table you see now.

Hapur, the RIGHT Welder can repair these breaks.

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
Could you tell us how the die itself was made?

Something tells me there is "high heat" and a single strike involved in the die manufacture.