#38441
02/16/2010 12:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 18
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OP
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I am not to into german daggers, I just come across them from time to time. I came across this today. I was windering if anyone could help ID these crossguard markings. Front guard has SA - 1939 - Miliz, the reverse is a signature. The blade is in rough condition, RZM marked 7/12. Thanks.
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#38442
02/16/2010 12:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 18
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OP
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#38443
02/16/2010 12:35 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 435
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 435 |
Someone's running your fingerprint through the system even as we speak!!
If you want to criticise someone first walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when they come after you, you'll be a mile ahead and they'll be barefoot.
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#38444
02/17/2010 02:11 AM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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Here are some better pictures without finger prints.
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#38445
02/17/2010 02:12 AM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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#38446
02/17/2010 02:13 AM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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#38447
02/17/2010 02:14 AM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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#38448
02/17/2010 05:47 AM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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Any opinions? Good, bad, just plain ugly??
It came out of the woodwork. I know the dagger is good, I am just not sure about the crossguard inscription, or what is represents. Thanks!
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#38449
02/27/2010 06:21 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5 |
I tend to believe this dagger's inscription to be good. The word Miliz in German represents a militia or reserve Army. This, coupled with the 1939 date and the SA would probably mean a fore runner of the Wehrmannschaft to me for the date. Translation of the SA name on the reverse could be of great importance. The first letters are Litz, but I can't be sure of the remaining letters. Can anyone translate?? This name and signature I believe I have seen before somewhere. Service record could reveil more. Ron Weinand
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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#38450
03/01/2010 04:05 AM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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Here is a better pic of the signature. Thanks Ronald for the help.
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#38451
03/01/2010 04:06 AM
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#38452
03/01/2010 04:25 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
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Joined: Aug 2000
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I can't translate this signature. Maybe some of our German friends can.
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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#38453
03/01/2010 05:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200 |
Looks like "Litzmann" to me.
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#38454
03/01/2010 05:36 PM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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From another forum a member believes that it is SA Gruppenf�hrer Karl Litzmann's signature.
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#38455
03/01/2010 07:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
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If I got it right, the SA general by that name was the Reichsreiterf�hrer, and F�hrer for horse breeding (etc). Heavily involved with the Reichsreiterf�hrerschule in Berlin-Zehlendorf, (and in 1936 the Olympics) until the equestrian program itself was discontinued in 1941. How that relates to this dagger (if it does) I think is going to require some more work. Is it possible to get a better close up of the SA marked side? FP
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#38456
03/01/2010 09:19 PM
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OP
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I did find a reference to Litzmann serving the Army from 1939-1941. This is from Google translation from Estonian, not all the words came through. "From September 1939 the army again took Litzmann. He participaited in one of East Prussia ratsar�gemendi eskadroni�lemana battles in Poland, the Netherlands, Belgium and France." Metapedia
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#38457
03/01/2010 09:22 PM
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Posts: 18
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#38458
03/01/2010 11:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Thanks for the extra images !! I don't want to engage in 'dueling resources/references', but what I related came primarily from a German source as partially edited: "............ Im gleichen Jahr erhielt er die Berufung zum Reichsreiterf�hrer und F�hrer der obersten Beh�rden f�r Pferdezucht und �rennen nach Berlin. Erste Aufgaben waren der Bau der Reichsreiterf�hrerschule in Berlin-Zehlendorf und Vorbereitung der Equipe auf die Olympiade 1936. 1941 wurde die �ffentlich gef�rderte Reitausbildung eingestellt, da diese f�r SA und die Wehrmacht nicht mehr relevant war. Litzmann wurde f�r andere Aufgaben frei und fand Verwendung als Generalkommissar f�r Estland im Protektorat Ostland mit Sitz in Reval." My point still being is there actually a connection between this late average quality dagger, and the man who was a high ranking SA member? Believing that still more information is needed. Regards, FP
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#38459
04/21/2010 04:44 PM
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Posts: 18
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OP
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I will be brining this with me to the West Coast Militaria show at the Pomona Fair Grounds May 7-8 if anyone want to look at it in person.
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#38460
05/23/2010 10:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 18
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OP
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When I was at the Pomona show a few weeks ago I showed this to Steve Wolfe of Wolfe Harden Militaria and he stated that it is 100% correct. He stated that he has seen many examples with the same style etching. He had refered to this as a "Sweetheart Dagger", not quite sure what he meant by that. He did state that there were prabably several Litzmann's and looking through the SA rolls might help narrow the search.
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