UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum my new project

Hi everyone, I've been trying different ways of displaying some of my collection, i have just found this oblong pennant and thought I'd give it a go to display my party badges and stickpins three on the bottom row the NSKK, Hunting Association, and the DDAC are marked 800 silver.

let me know how if it's a good idea or not, cheers Cameron.

Looks good. Don't know the measurements are, but option is a picture frame .They are inexpensive. Really cool keep them coming they are looking good.

Cameron, the banner display is a good idea.

When you wrote 800 marked organizational badges I got a "look out " "tingling sensation". You did not ask, but if you would like - post them for comments.

--dj--Joe

A nice way to display them indeed. However, as Joe points out, some of the badges themselves have issues I’m afraid 😧

Hi Don, thanks for the comment, which badges do you think are not good and I'll photograph them and post them, cheers Cameron

Hi Joe, thanks for the comment, I'll photograph the 800 marked ones and post them later today
any others that maybe suspect I'll do the same to them also, Cheers Cameron

I’m afraid that the green Hungarian badge & AH 1933 are definitely bad. The Hungarian badge never came in that colour. Most of the Hungarian badges on the market are fake. If you find one, post it for here to double check, never buy one with a maker mark either.
The AH badge is a fantasy piece which never existed during the period.

Sorry
Don

Hi Don, thanks for the quick reply about my pins and badges, the Hungarian one i can live with, but the AH1933 is a different matter, this was the first ever pin i ever bought way back in 1980 along with the HJ Diamond and the other HJ badge on the end top row right
i am gutted about that really, as I said I've owned it for 44 years and its bad, WOW thanks for that. Cheers Cameron

hi joe, thanks again for chiming in about my stuff, here's the advert for the NSKK stickpin
WW2 NSKK Lapel Stickpin, 800 Marked
NSKK lapel stickpin, '800' silver marked, approx size 23x20 mm high, excellent condition.
https://www.whartonmilitaria.co.uk/...adges_politicaltinnies&item=GBP0034A

A now hard to find early DDAC membership stickpin, solid silver marked '800', approx size of badge is 20x15mm plus stickpin length,
the badge front has been well polished over the years, a difficult early badge to obtain.
https://www.whartonmilitaria.co.uk/items.php?section=3rdreichbadges_politicaltinnies

German Hunting Association featuring the emblem of the Jägermeister embellished with a swastika. These 800 stamped German Silver pins are a very nice collectible item.
https://www.alansmilitaria.co.uk/en-GB/civil-awards/german-hunting-association-tie-membership-pin/prod_11334

As you can see, they are all marked 800 for silver content, please tell they are good!

As Don's told me my 1933 badge is a fantasy piece, here it is in closeup, still can't believe it, all these years

it's even got what looks like dried blood on the front of it.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. We’ve all been there, & I still have pieces that I bought many years ago that are bad. Regarding the AH, another point to think about is that it was supposed to have been made in 1933 celebrating the election of AH. However the RZM wasn’t introduced until 1934 & not mandatory until 1935. There’s also a version with Deutschland Erwache 1933 which is also a fantasy & should be avoided.

I’m also sorry to have to say that both the NSKK & DDAC stickpins are bad. The style of twist on the pin is wrong for German made pins used during the period.

I can’t say that I’m a fan of the DJ pin either, however the obverse details are better on this one & the pin looks better. Let’s see what Joe thinks.

Can we see the HJ pieces please & the DBV please.

Don

Hi Don, thanks for your last message, there was a lot of information included in it
I didn't know anything about RZM back when I was 16, seems like I've been duped by dealers before and since , the dealers I've just spend money on must have known the authenticity of the items was in doubt, so I'm not sure as to complain and return the said items and try to buy something else, I'll take some more pictures later on again, let's hope theres good news somewhere,cheers Cameron

Hi Cameron. I concur with Don's assessment.
I am not sure of the D.J. pin. Hard to tell from the image clarity. The pin knurl on your example appears acceptable. The obverse seems good. (Sharper image needed). Am at present searching for other silver marked examples. Could you get a sharper image of the reverse? (The Ges. Gesch. mark).
Here is mine, of course I can't locate the reverse image.

I do if I recall correctly have a St. Hubertus stick pin with a silver mark. If it's not a senior moment memory.

Cameron, don't let purchasing a repro. get you down. It's a rite of passage for organizational badge collectors. I'm setting on a repro. 25mm. GPB that used to be considered period in the older reference books.

--dj--Joe

here's some more pictures ive just taken, hope these help

Cameron, asking for a refund is worth a chance if the dealer is still in business and has a return policy.
You can also sell them as repro's. Some collectors focus on repro's.
Or put them in a little box that you can look in every now and then when you want to be pissed off.

--dj--Joe

Hi Joe, hell it's been a bad day today, i was sure most of what i had was good, but as you said it's part of the collecting journey buying duds, and Ive loved having the duds even though i didn't know they were at the time lol ,I've learned a few more new things today, thanks to you and Don, Ive got more pictures to follow of the DJ stickpin, thanks again, Cameron

its hard to get a decent clear photo so i hope these are ok, many thanks, Cameron

Hi Joe, it's a pain in the arse to send stuff back, the last time I did I was £7.99 out of pocket so I might just keep them as I still like the look of them, I will in time replace them with other examples and they will be left in my box gathering dust, and as you say I'll take them out and frown now and again, cheers Cameron

Oh boy, you are REALLY going to hate me……

I’m afraid these are all bad as well.

The HJ diamond: All Otto Hoffmann marked badges are fakes. The manufacturer never existed as a badge maker.

The HJ Arbeits Jugend: RZM with just Ges.Gesch is always a no, no. If it has RZM, then it must either have a number or an M1/ with a number. These also existed before the RZM came in so can be found with just a manufacturer’s name & Ges.Gesch.

The DBV were only made by Steinhaur & Lück & should have their symbol on it. Also, for some reason, the finish on the obverse of these hasn’t lasted well & the silvering is usually rubbed off. If it looks really nice like this then it will almost certainly be a fake.

I’m still not keen on the DJ….

Tomorrow I shall try to find scans of my pieces for you to see.

Sorry again
Don

Hi Don, wow, you've really got it in for me today, lol, no seriously I appreciate all your experience
Today has been a master class of what not to do in collecting, admittedly it's been 40 odd years in the making, from now on I'm going to post anything I'm thinking of buying to get a better chance of buying real Third Reich artifacts in the future, I'm probably gonna give some of these copies to my grandson, and try to get him involved in the hobby, looking forward to seeing your photos to compare mine to yours, thanks a lot, Cameron

Don, I learned something about the Deutscher Büro u. Behördenangestellten Verband Badge. Your information is new to me.

Cameron, I do not know what to think about the D.J. badge. I see no detail to the antlers.

Cameron, the H.J. diamond, Otto Hoffmann badge is controversial. There are red examples such as yours and examples with other colors, blue and green. A period advert. for Otto Erich Hoffmann shows H.J., D.J. and B.D.M. cloth items. It has sparked some discussion on these badges. You might want to do a search. Still no definitive proof that Otto Hoffmann made H.J. badges. Just discussion.

--dj--Joe

Hi Joe,

Yes the information has only come to light in recent years following research by Jo Reivett. I also had one of the fake ones & after reading Jo's evidence & comparing my Ges,Gesch one with my Steinhaur version came to the same conclusion.

Cameron,

Joe is correct regarding the Hoffmann ad & this has indeed let to confusion & controversy with this badge which has led to some HJ collectors to believe that the badges marked to him are original (not the coloured ones they are all bad). I don't honestly know if they are good or not. However, looking at the quality of the manufacture of the one that you show, I would say that this particuler piece isn't one of the good ones.... But as Joe says, do a search & see what you think. At the end of the day, we as collectors have to be happy with what we have regardless of what others might think.

Here is a scan of my DBV stickpin marked with the Steinhaur symbol. Note that much of the silvering on the obverse has rubbed showing the base metal, however the DBV letters are clear & well defined compared to the Ges.Gesch version. Unfortunately you can only just see the maker mark under the pin. If I can get my camera to recharge I will see if I can get an angled photo of it at some point.

One point that Jo mentioned was the discolouration on the reverse of the Ges.Gesch versions, bright at the attachment point & darkening as it moves out. I cannot remember what his explanation was for this, but it is seen on many of the known fake stickpins out there, something that I hadn't noticed before.

Anyway, let's see some pictures of your other pieces when you have the time, might as well look them all over while we are here.

Hi Don, Thanks for all your help, I have emailed the two dealers to ask for a refund, only one has replied and that's the DJ hunters stickpin he says he got them from a reputable auction house in Germany and believes they are not copies, he also wanted screenshots of the forum etc, he also said I should post future purchases on here before I buy, to stop this kind of hassle, which I replied I would, not just for his site but all sites, once again Cheers for your help
Regards Cameron

I'm not defending dealers or auction sites, but they are human just like us & cannot be expected to be experts in every area. I have no idea about combat pieces etc. & would be lost if asked about them. Dealers get a large variety of items through their doors & are not experts in everything. A dealer who may know Iron Crosses inside out may know absolutely nothing about helmets etc. The test is whether or not they will stand by what they sell & are willing to take items back if the buyer is not happy with them. The really good dealers do not even need to know why a piece needs to be returned, they accept it without question. The dealers to avoid are the ones who do not have a return policy or, if they do, take forever to actually enact it.

There are a lot of very good & respectable dealers out there, but you will still see fakes being offered by them.

Looking forward to seeing some of the other pieces from your display.

Don

As promised, here are a couple of poor quality smaps of the maker mark (it's been many years since I used a camera )

D

Hi Don , thanks yet again for your continued help and wealth of information, i concur that dealers and the such may not be experts in all things Third Reich and can make mistakes too, i have since yesterday had a reply from the other dealer who is happy to let me return the two stickpins, thanks for the pictures of the reverse of the DVB stickpin, there's nothing wrong with your photographer skills as the pictures are fine and now i know what to look out for in the next one i see, if i can find a replacement that is, Ive decided to keep the HJ stickpin as the general thoughts of you and Joe were undecided about it, so ill take a chance on it, On Friday when I'm off again i will start to photograph the rest of my collection to eventually add it to all my other posts on the forum, then i will see if i have at least bought some good items lol
once more thanks for everything and have a great day, Cheers Cameron

hi Joe, thanks yet again for your insight and useful information, i think i have learned more about collecting the kind of stuff we collect in the last week then for years before, none of my friends were interested in this stuff at all so I've been a lone wolf for donkeys {ages}
but recently an old friend i knew at school many years ago found me on whatsapp and to my surprise hes into collecting too, in fact his whole house is like a museum every room packed with stuff , not jealous really lol
i want to thank you again for being a good teacher and i await further pearls of wisdom from you in the future, Cheers Cameron

Hi Cameron,

That is good news. I do like to hear of dealers who will stand by their products & accept returns

I fully understand about the HJ piece as well. When it comes to collecting it is totally down to us to decide what we are happy with. I have a few contraversial pieces in my collection that I am happy with, but some other collectors are not....

Looking forward to seeing more. Hopefully these will be nice originals.

Don

Hell yeah mate, I full of optimism to find no more faked items, I'm not holding out much luck about that though there's a few more things I think are fake, ooh the shame Lol
Chat again soon, Cameron