UBB.threads Forums General Interest Community Center Restated rule for the "For Sale" Forum

While attempting to correct a couple of typos, I blew up the rules of the For Sale Forum. I have re-written them and here they are as "provisional". Comments ? Anything I left out?

Dave

See below for final draft.

Ouch, nuked the rules.

This has been asked before, this is as good as time as any to request further clarification.

Why is is necessary, to say nothing of being mandatory, to include your email right out in the open like that ?
Makes it very easy for spammers, and known militaria ripoffs like Nowack, to get your personal email.

I never had any problems with spammers until I started posting my email addy here, now my spam filter gets quite a workout trying to filter out the variety of crap that flows into it - And this is the only site where I have had to openly post it.

Is getting a throw away hotmail/yahoo account an option ?
Too late for this one, I am thinking about retiring it and getting a fresh start with another ISP based email addy, but I don't wish to see it trashed like this one.

Doug,

1. Not everyone knows that by clicking on a poster's name, you can see the public profile including a "Display Email"

2. Not all members keep their "Display Email" up to date.

As for spammers, to even see the For Sale area, you need to be a member and be signed on - not lurking. And, if the person is a signed on member, he can look at email addresses anyway by clicking on a name.

And, yes, Hotmail, Yahoo, etc are OK. The only reason we require a display email is to allow collector to collector contact.

Dave

Sounds all good and well Dave, But It would be soooo much better if a certain few regular sellers would abide by your #2 rule. Many people are supplying lousy images of their merch. for sale and saying near mint, almost mint, and just plain mint. Then you recieve their stuff only to have to ship it straight back ! These folks are dishonest and have no integrity !

You are right. Maybe I will add a under 'recommendations' something about clear photos and correct grading.

In the meantime, feel free to post a comment in an ad if you think better photos would help.

Dave

About the pictures:
Is it possible to get a higer maximum size of the pictures posted on the sales forum?

This way it would be easyer to ad good quality pictures of sold items.

Best Regards
St�le

I agree, the 111kb limit is rather puny, even a small increases to around 140 would make it much better.

i think 200 kb would be wonderful..

Let me think on that till after MAX. The reason that we are still at about 100KB is that some people still have dial up connections and those big images are very slow.

Dave

We are now post-MAX.

At the show several guys mentioned that they lived in rural areas where high speed Internet is not available and even dial up is very slow. So the 110KB limit on pics will stay for a while.

I also mostly positive responses to our "For Sale" area but a few stories that I would rather not have heard about problems.

Here is the proposed final draft:

GDC �For Sale� Forum Rules.

Here is how this Forum should work: The seller describes his artifact carefully and includes good photos. A buyer sees what he likes, contacts the seller, strikes a deal, and promptly sends the seller the money. In return he receives a carefully packed item that exceeds his expectations. Sometimes it does not quite work out that way in the real world so here are the rules. Please read these carefully:

Buyers and sellers using this Forum agree to abide by the following:

1. Premium Members may post �For Sale� ads in this Forum and the items must be their property. No consignments or favors for friends, please. Sellers must post their contact email address in each ad. Ads without a contact email address will be removed.

2. Sellers must post at least one photograph of the item(s) for sale. They are encouraged to use several photographs and describe the item in detail including any faults. Similar smaller items should be grouped into one ad. Ads without photos will be removed.

3. Sellers must post their asking price, and must say whether postage / insurance / tracking / signature confirmation are included. They may require the seller to purchase insurance / tracking / signature confirmation as a condition of sale. We strongly recommend that these be a part of any deal.

4. Sellers must offer a minimum of a five day no-fault inspection period (from the time of receipt of the item(s) by the buyer) during which time the buyer may return the item(s) for a full refund minus the cost of postage and insurance. No �restocking fee� or �service charge� may be levied on the buyer. If the item is altered by the buyer, it is NOT returnable. Failure to return full purchase price minus postage / insurance will result in the seller being suspended until the money is returned.

5. If no other agreement has been reached between buyer and seller, payment is due ASAP. If the seller not received payment within 14 days, and no other conditions have been agreed upon, the seller may consider the sale void and re list the item.

6. Sellers are strongly encouraged to send the merchandise only after payment has been received unless they are familiar and comfortable with the buyer. Sellers may decline to sell their goods to anyone without reason and may withdraw their items without reason.

7. Please limit ads to militaria or items closely associated with our hobby. Buyers and sellers are responsible for complying with US and State laws or laws of other countries as concerns shipping prohibited items.

8. Sellers may limit the geographical area to which they will sell, and the carriers/mail service they will use to send the item(s). They may also limit how they wish to be paid, i.e. �no Paypal� or �USPS Money Orders only�, etc. Sellers may NOT require �Cash Only� as a condition of sale.

9. With international sales, sellers are advised to fill out customs declaration forms factually. If the buyer requests specific language or declared value, any fallout from this is the buyer�s problem. Also with international sales, buyer and seller are advised to agree on a carrier that offers full tracking service door to door.

10. Sellers may withdraw an item at any time before a deal is reached, but once an agreement is reached a deal is deal. Once a seller accepts a buyer�s offer, both parties are obliged to follow through with the deal as long as these rules are being followed.

11. Ads have a life span of 30 days, after which they will be moved to the �Expired Ads� Forum. Ads may be reposted.


12. Mistakes, misunderstandings, postal errors, and such do happen, but experience has shown that a very few have not acted with integrity in the past. If sellers or buyers feel this is the case with their deal, they should report problems to the Moderators or Administrators. Infractions of the above rules will be treated seriously by GDC, with sanctions to match the infractions.

Please note numbers 5 and 6

Comments / questions ?

Dave

Dave:

I have no issues with the above.

John

I DO A FAIR AMOUNT OF BUYING HERE and this works well with me

PAUL

I think it's very fair and reasonable. However, a provision regarding "buyer's remorse" prior to payment could be included. This is a situation where a buyer says he will buy and several days later he says he has changed his mind. This puts the seller in a bind of sorts. He may have rejected offers, an outright sale, etc., because he thought the item was sold. Then, the seller must take the item off "hold" or relist it, possibly causing those interested to wonder why, get cold feet and lose interest. No commitment to buy should be made unless the buyer has resolved any questions regarding authenticity, condition, etc., PRIOR to committing to buy. It seems some sanction in such situations would be in order.

Grumpy-

The only issue with a "buyers remo***" clause is in the fact that the buyer is still entitled to a 5 day return policy, no reasons. If he were tied to a purchases after committing, all the buyer must do is buy it, and immediately return it. I would imagine a situation like that would possibly raise more red flags with potential future buyers than an individual who committed without checking his account balances.

Just a quick retort to that issue. The point is that a buyers remo*** policy could still easily be circumvented

I appreciate your observations, but like most of the rules, they are biased toward the buyer. My point is that buyers should have respect for sellers by knowing they want to buy. In most cases, accurate descriptions, clear photos and straight answers are available from sellers. If you don't have the money or aren't sure you want to buy, simply don't commit to buy. I don't think that's asking too much, or is a hardship on a buyer, but it can be on a seller. It's simply "bad business" to commit to buy, sit on the matter for a few days while the seller wraps the item, weighs it at the post office, marks it "on hold," etc., and then the buyer sends an email stating he has changed his mind. Most of these situations occur when a buyer wants to "scoop" an item before someone else does. An impulsive move. He is thinking only of himself, not the seller or other potential buyers. The five day return policy should be just that - an examination period. I don't agree there should be a five day (or longer) "change your mind" policy.

I think that a buyer should be allowed return only if the item is significantly not as described, or there are questions of authenticity, or damaged in transit - Not because it wasn't quite what he expected, or simply because he wants to.
This isn't ebay, I can't understand the need to cater to buyers so much, which is the same at WAF.
Sure, everyone should be treated fairly ,, But "everyone" in a 2 person equation is buyer + seller, and forums with for sale sections tend to dump on sellers like they are walmart or something, obliged to make the customer happy 100%, or else complete refund for any reason.

For the record, I've never been dumped on on a sale here, all of my transactions have been mutually satisfactory ,, Then again, I don't sell all that much.
But if someone demanded a refund just because, I'd be hot.
As far as I'm concerned, a deal between 2 men should stand, unless there is a very good cause to reverse it.

Also, I am often the buyer, probably more often than a seller, so its not like I have sellers bias.
I wouldn't think of reneging on a deal for no reason, and don't see the reason why such a childish requirement needs to be enshrined as official forum policy.

Grump, Sword,

I am not sure I can craft a rule around "buyers remorse". Thing other than changes of mind really do happen. Guy buys dagger, A/C shoots craps (mine did last week ), or car breaks, etc, and $$$ is preempted. If you can suggest wording for a rule, and post it for comment, I will consider it. Some people pull stunts like that, but they are not frequent as far as I know, and having the item "on hold" for a few days is not the end of the earth. If anyone feels it deliberate, let me know.

Sky,

The five day rule is based on my experience. I have bought a couple of daggers that looked great on paper but just did not "talk" to me so I sent them back and got a refund minus the sellers costs. I mostly work with dealers who sell on those conditions as I consider them fair and and clear.

On the other hand "Significantly not as described" can be argued to death and is used by at least one eBay seller who gets a Bronx Cheer every time he is mentioned here. Hard to enforce. If you can craft a rule, please post it for comment and I will consider it.

**************

When you look at the amount of sales made in the "For Sale" Forum it is quite high and we have had remarkably few problems ... at least that I have heard of, and I think good rules have helped.

I understand the "buyer's remorse" issue is difficult to deal with. However, due to past such problems, I am reluctant to list items for sale here. I have listed one item fairly recently, but am very selective about such. I have had better luck (no buyer's remorse or returns) elsewhere. I would hope most, if not all, members are serious collectors who have respect for other members. Committing to buy and changing one's mind days later, in my view, shows a lack of concern and respect. Certainly there are rare occasions where, of financial necessity, payment cannot or will not be forthcoming. I have not experienced this. What I have experienced is a commitment to buy, followed by an email days later stating emails, solicited and unsolicited, were received by the buyer stating the item was questionable or fake, which was not the case. Do your homework before you commit to buy, is all I ask. In the future, if I choose to sell here, I will publicly identify anyone who commits to buy and reneges without good cause. I know it is difficult to set up rules here, but, as stated earlier, they tend to be in favor of the buyer, leaving the seller to fend for himself the best he can. By the way, I'm not a dealer, just a collector. I would prefer to see what I sell go to fellow members and collectors. I try to set prices fairly and am reasonable to negotiate with. However, more often than not, listing something for sale here often leads to a manure storm that nobody wants or needs.

"Returns - Buyers have a 7 day period in which to return an item significantly not as described, damaged in transit, or where there are questions of authenticity.
"Buyers remorse", "it wasn't quite what I thought it would be", "there is a hairline scratch not visible in pics" & "I regret I bought this thing, I could use the $$ for a new car radio instead" are not valid reasons to request a refund.
Before you say "I'll take it", make sure that you want it, simple as that.
In instances where there are disputes of authenticity and/or description, the dispute will be resolved within the sales thread by forum staff.
In this regards, along with clear descriptions highlighting not only the virtues, but any flaws of items for sale, sellers are highly encouraged to post multiple, clear shots of their items, 100% coverage and good lighting are essential in helping any potential buyer accurately gauge the condition of the item.
Most potential understandings can be nipped right in the bud when sellers use these common sense principals, and when buyers know in advance that they are making a commitment by saying "I'll take it!"."


A bit wordy, perhaps.
I don't know, would it be the same if sellers had the right to take their item back within 7 days ?
I understand your reasoning Dave, and yes headaches can develop with disputes, but I would imagine the majority of transactions go without a hitch anyhow, and a man to man deal should not allow a dishonorable escape clause.

I haven't had many dealings with dealers, not sure a private individual should be held to the same standards ,, And do they really all offer no questions asked returns ?

I think holding to the same standards as a dealer would be and is ridiculous. They'll make on an average $200 more on the standard SA and they do it for a living. The rest of us work or at least don't deal with this stuff all day. I think you pay a premium with the dealers to get the opportunity to have a little more lead way with returns. Which should not be as forthcoming with a private individual. I think everyone has probably made the "I'll take it" mistake before. But saying that before its box and payed for is a bit different than saying it then thinking better of it an hour later then reneging.

I never knew GDC sellers had to cover for buyer remorse. I never intended on returning a product because someone changed their mind that late in the game. Good grief its a little juvenile to expect someone to return something because you may feel you made a mistake buying it. I felt I made mistakes buying things before but I usually **** it up. It the honorable thing to do. Maybe the individual has already got your money tied up in something of their own, then they have to hassle around with getting this person their money back. That's crazy, we all can't just throw around thousands of dollars with ease.
I think something should be considered sold unless its proved fake. Which I hope doesn't happen to often around here.

Waiting 14 days for payment is IMO WAY too long. IMO 7 days is quite enough.

I agree 7 days is more than enough time for payment.

7 days is fine if you take Visa or Paypal. But, if you want money, like in a money order or bank draft, it could take several days, depending on the time of week, to get the money order or to get the bank draft.

Then, depending on the vagaries of the postal systems in the countries that the money travels through, it could take up to a week for the money to be delivered.

Then, there is the issue of how long it takes your financial institution to declare that it really is money and it is ok for you to have it.

I once had a situation where I sent a postal money order to a small town in the South of the US, and it took the recipient about 5 days before his local post office had enough cash to pay him out.

I also had a situation where I sent a bank draft to the US, and when it didn't arrive in 7 days, the vendor insisted on a replacement draft, even though my bank wouldn't consider a refund on the original one until after 60 days.
So, I did, and to no one's surprise, both drafts showed up in the mail on the same day. Then the issue became how to get my first draft back. It worked out fine since it was a person that I knew and trusted, but, if I were dealing with a stranger, I would have reacted differently.

What I am saying here is that you must be flexible in everything. Timing of payments, making things non returnable, etc. will only make us want to deal with people we know and trust, including the dealers.

John

Most of our sales are state side so 7 days is more than ample. Now for off shore sales we sell only 3 ways; Paypal,Bank wire transfer,or Western union. All are quick to pay. Plus we do take all cards and forms of payment to make it easy. I've rarely ever had to wait more than 7 days to be paid.

Flexability is always an option but a hard and fast rule of 14 days is IMO excessive. No way is this acceptable for sales in the same country-IMO.

Ed:

My bank charges $7.50 for a bank draft in US$ drawn on a US bank, and charges $50.00 for a wire transfer.

I agree that, for those who charge 3-4% for taking Paypal and on a larger ticket item, the $50.00 fee is trivial.

I wonder about the bank transfer bit, though. Isn't one of the big scams in this world trying to get your bank account information? I worry that anyone who has access to an account to deposit, has access to withdraw.

John

John,

Wire transfers are quite safe. The banks know how to deal with these transfers. They know how to spot potential fraud and they are insured, (just in case). You mentioned to me before about them charging you $50 dollars, Thats really excessive. I've been noticing costs around $20-$30 dollars. I believe Western Union is a real good option for off shore sales.

Good points, but seven days is tight even for the USA if you send a money order or bank check and many still do. I know that I use USPS money orders when I buy stuff on eBay from sellers I do not know.

Strike a deal Saturday. Go the PO or bank after work on Monday and mail the payment Monday night if everything goes right. Then .... I have had letters from California arrive in two days and also things from 100 miles away take 4-5 days.

Then there are Canada and Europe and there are lots of sellers and buyers in both areas from what I can see. Since many items sold are not really high in value, fees for wire transfer etc, are high for the buyer.

I am trying to make the rules fair and clear enough to be both understandable and enforceable. That is why I see "significantly not as described" as vague. One person's "insignificant" is another guy's show stopper, as we have seen just looking at artifacts in the various forums.

Why would you pay an ebay sale with a money order, you are totally at their mercy ?

I reckon that if you think that the 'not as described' thing is completely unsolvable, then thats that.
I think it would be a simple matter to decide.
You look at the auction pics, you ask the guy whos claiming its not as described to post pics, along with an explanation what is not as described, then make up your mind whos got a valid case.
Its not like we're trying to solve 9/11 or global warming here, this is fairly simple, and I doubt you'd be deluged with "cases", probably 2-3 a month at most.

Since most sales go without a hitch its not a large matter either way, I just never liked total buyer indulgence without consideration to the seller, who easily can lose out on a sale, have to relist his item, repack, go to the po again, because the buyer has no obligation to maintain his end of [what I consider to be] a man to man deal

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Sunday:
Most of our sales are state side so 7 days is more than ample. Now for off shore sales we sell only 3 ways; Paypal,Bank wire transfer,or Western union. All are quick to pay. Plus we do take all cards and forms of payment to make it easy. I've rarely ever had to wait more than 7 days to be paid.

Last time I bank-wired money to the states from Norway, it took about 10 days before the recipient actually got the money...
If buying something 10k+ paypal is not an option....

Doug,

I use a USPS Money Order for the following reason. A few years a go I got a fairly expensive book for another hobby on eBay. Sent the MO and got nothing. I inquired after two weeks and the guy replied, in a not too friendly tone, that he not got the MO. I wanted until 30 days had passed since I bought the MO, went to the post office with the stub, filled out the form, paid the fee and sent it off. A bit later I got a photocopy of the MO with his signature on the back and his bank's stamp, plus instructions for contacting the Postal Inspectors if I thought this was postal fraud. I scanned the documents and emailed them to him for comments. I got a email back saying the book was in the mail together with a check to cover my fee for tracking the PO and apologies for the mistake.

People may play games with FedEx or UPS, but not the Postal Inspectors

Dave

Dave is right on with the Post office. Nobody likes to jerk the Postal inspector around. Most of my buys involve Postal money orders or Paypal and I rarely have any problems.

IMO US Post Office is IMO your best way to pay for something partcularly if it's expensive. They take cases of "Using the mail to commit fraud" very seriously and activly pursue any that are reported. Try and get this kind of assistance from either Fed Ex or UPS. US Postal Mo.s are also accepted virtually anywhere. I had to order a part for a shotgun from Spain awhile back and that was how I paid for it.
Jim

Ed,

You got that right. Check out this site:

https://postalinspectors.uspis...s/filecomplaint.aspx

This is not just money orders but also someone who uses the USPS to scam you.

Dave

Ok lets say that I'm a scammer.
I advertise a SS dagger for sale, you buy it, pay with a USPS money order.
I get the MO, cash it the same day, and send you a replica SS dagger.
You of course cry foul, I say you got exactly what you paid for.

The po is going to interject itself into this, and decide whos telling the truth ?

That's why it pays to keep the ads and all emails with a seller until you receive the item.
That is all you have to make your case. In the scenario described, fraud would be evident. Like Dave says above, using the USPS gives you the power of the postal inspectors, if fraud is present.

Dave,

It sometimes takes more than 30 days to consummate a deal with Europe. I think the adds should remain up for 60 days.

Jim

Fact: if you get scamed via mail fraud you are not going to get much help from the Postal inspectors. Your SOL! You would need to get the local police involved. USPS could care less.... I have been burnt many times. Even the insurance is flakey at best.

Grumpy:
I'm sure you well remember the situation you,I and other collectors plus a prominent dealer got into a couple of years ago with a scammer from Canada. If it's an international situation the Post Office won't help. It was through the diligent efforts of a Canadian detective that we got our money back. He told me it was a big help that we had saved all our email correspondence with the scammer as he was able to use it as evidence before a judge.
Jim

Eric - It worked for me so I use it. Can't say any more than that.

Jim - once outside the US, I can't give advice. That is why I say 1) that sellers may limit where they sell and 2) select a carrier that offers door to door tracking service.