|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173 |
Hello What do you feel about this white frog ? Thnaks Alain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 265
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 265 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,199
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,199 |
I am very sceptical about this, the front pouch is different probably not genuine leather, there are no rivets, the stamps looks little strange. You should wait for other experts, as i am not focused on frogs.best regards,Andy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 488 |
I'd go as far as to say the frog is original , as andy states the rivets are gone , but the holes still remain , and it has been painted/treated with a white substance , what that is exactly i'm not sure. (Iwork in the paint industry and i dont know without it in hand) I believe it was done a long time ago , be that 10,30,60 years ago is going to be the question ? , worth a punt if i'ts cheap Regards Will.
p.s. the stitching that hold the pouch on the reverse look a bit sloppy ? slightly different to the rest, could be my eyes though!
Last edited by will jones; 10/27/2010 08:21 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
For myself, I don't see good evidence that rivets were installed vs. smaller diameter holes from now possibly missing stitching. And the white coloration inside inside of the pouch (and frog stud hole) is also not good from my perspective, as the Germans as a rule left these areas unfinished. (ie: natural/brown leather). FP
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 488 |
FP , the "WHITE WASH" is not good , do you think this is a fake frog ? i will stand corrected (said the man in the orthopedic shoes) lol
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
FP , the "WHITE WASH" is not good , do you think this is a fake frog ? i will stand corrected (said the man in the orthopedic shoes) lol Will, I think that the frog was painted (white washed - whatever) after if was made. And I forgot to mention that I find the way that the white finish has cracked around the lettering I think is also troubling. So, absent a first hand inspection, from my perspective I have to put it into at least the "altered" box. And possibly a complete fake - but would need to take a look at some other things like what it smells like etc. Best Regards, FP
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173 |
Hello guys Thanks for you comments about this frog. Best regards Alain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,199
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,199 |
I believe this is a repair postwar job, i assume the piece was damaged on front pouch, and the all stiching was replased same as front part, the rivets were not added and the overall was white over painted. I believe there should be examined thouroughly like mentioned FP. best regards,Andy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173 |
Hi Andy I have been told it was worn by SS in the 30ies for presentation ? Regards Alain
Last edited by Klinge; 10/28/2010 09:07 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
Hi Andy I have been told it was worn by SS in the 30ies for presentation ? Regards Alain The SS did use white leather gear for a period during the 30's, but this ain't it. Does anyone remember the old Shinola liquid shoe polish they made in white for Nurse's and Saddle shoes? If this isn't it, it's something very close. The originality of the frog is really unimportant at this point, as it has essentially been ruined anyway.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
The SS did use white leather gear for a period during the 30's, but this ain't it. Does anyone remember the old Shinola liquid shoe polish they made in white for Nurse's and Saddle shoes? If this isn't it, it's something very close. The originality of the frog is really unimportant at this point, as it has essentially been ruined anyway. That works for me. The leather finish in the image is all wrong for a period item. With no doubt in my mind that the frog was intended for the "collector market". FP
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173 |
Thanks for these new points of detail. Alain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 488 |
If it had an original white finish, then it would have been worn by the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) Regards Will
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878 |
HI HAS ANYONE GOT A PHOTO OF ANOTHER SO WE CAN COMPARE.I HAVE SEEN PHOTOS OF THEM IN WEAR AS WELL. THANKS DIPPY
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,610 Likes: 8
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,610 Likes: 8 |
Heres one thats for sale on regimentals site. a bit dear but looks to be real
Regards Sean
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
If it had an original white finish, then it would have been worn by the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) Regards Will Also by a certain segment of the Polizei, I believe. Perhaps Orpo will expand on this point.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25 |
As far as I have known, the only accepted white frogs were made by Fischer, Berlin. I believe they were primarily used by Polizei units on parade duty & had limited use by the Liebstandarte on a diplomatic trip to Japan. The original frog posted in this thread looks to be a complete reproduction IMHO.
This one was purchased from the late Chip Gambino. Legit examples are not cheap but do create a striking appearance, don't they?
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25 |
A view from the front.
~.JPG (102.37 KB, 147 downloads)
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
Billy That is one incredible bayonet. Congrats Stingray
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
B:
Stingray is right, that is a wow!
Is that a Pack with offset rivets like that? Did they do the offset rivet with police bayos like they did with their etches?
J
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173 |
hi billy This bayonet is SUPERB !!! Klinge
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286 |
White frogs from the 30's and 40's were still in use with the German army in the 80's..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25 |
Gentlemen, Many thanks for the kind words. The frog was purchased from chip Gambino many years ago, sadly his site seems to no longer be in operation. Both the frog & knot were added to the bayonet later, it came to me naked. I've seen white A. Fischer, Berlin frogs with both 137 & 1938 dates & they all pretty much resembled this one. I liked it because it showed a little period wear but still remained quite serviceable. Actually, the frog shows significantly more wear than the bayonet which is very near mint & quite possibly unissued. No doubt one of my personal favorites in the stable. For any who don't recognize the model, it is a rare PSS (Polizei Seitengewehr Sonderausfuhrung), here is a GD thread with plenty more information on them. I think they're still working the kinks out of the search function on the new GD software as I couldn't find this thread on the site search. It took a Google search to resurrect it from what I thought was an early demise. http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=140566John, I don't believe I've ever seen a PSS by Pack. This one is by Gebruder Hartkopf &, for those of you that are mark buts, is also distributor marked. So far as I know, the offset rivets are a standard of the model type & not a specific manufacturer's variation. Pack police bayonets are not too common & those I've seen all seemed to be pretty early in construction. Most had a couple of distinctive details that I believe were specific to Pack although offset rivets were not something I'd ever observed on them.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,181 Likes: 291
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,181 Likes: 291 |
Billy, kind of weird but sometimes works: Go to bottom lower left of screen. See 'Display Options'. Change 'Show Topics' to 'from all dates' and click 'Change'.. It should show all the back pages from the old GDC forum. Then sometimes you'll find what your searching for!
Last edited by Gaspare; 10/31/2010 07:31 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
As far as I have known, the only accepted white frogs were made by Fischer, Berlin. I believe they were primarily used by Polizei units on parade duty & had limited use by the Liebstandarte on a diplomatic trip to Japan. The original frog posted in this thread looks to be a complete reproduction IMHO.
This one was purchased from the late Chip Gambino. Legit examples are not cheap but do create a striking appearance, don't they? The white frogs were specified for use with S84.98s in parade dress by units of the Schutzpolizei (Reich and Gemeinden). It matched their white belt and bandeliers. Their band and fife/bugle units also wore white. The Gendarmerie wore brown parade dress accessories. I am sure the LSAH wore white in all parade circumstances.
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
Darn the time limitations of the edit function.
The white frogs were specified for sue with the S84/98s when the Schupo were carrying rifles. Without the rifle, the Polizei Seitengewehr was carried. The mot. Gendarmerie carried the S84/98s at all times in their brown frogs.
Billy, I have an example of white frog produced by Fischer and "Po" accepted in 1937 and Larsen (1938) but with a "Po 39" acceptance stamp. The second example seems to be of slightly larger size.
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,136 Likes: 25 |
Joe,
Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I remember reading somewhere that Fischer was the only legitimate white frog. As luck would have it, the only white ones I've seen that looked good were by Fischer but it doesn't surprise me there would be another maker. Could you post a pic of your Larsen?
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788 |
The SS did use white frogs with their 98/05 & 84/98 bayonets. All of the SS frogs that I have seen and those in my collection are made from a substitute material such as compressed paper. the white finish is similiar to a white enamel paint. The White SS Frogs are marked with the typical SS Property Mark on the backside of the frog.
If you look closely at the LAH Band pictures taken during their performance for Hitler's birthday, you can see the 98/05 bayonets in the white 98/05 frogs.
Richard Kuchta
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
Billy, I will try and get some pics up this evening.
Rich, do you mean that all SS formations had issued white leather for parade, or only the LSAH? Do you have any photos of it in use by any other units that the LSAH? By typical SS property mark, do you mean the VA marking? Someone screwed around with my "Po" marked white frog and added an LAH stamp. Totally bogus, but it didn't destroy the police marking.
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788 |
Joe,
The white SS Frogs were used by only the LAH (other than the police units). The typical SS Property Mark consists of a Death Head. The Death Heads vary in size and location depending upon which Division.
Richard Kuchta
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
Rich, why would those marks differ so greatly from the SS VA markings found on standard black bayonet frogs.
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788 |
Joe,
I should clarify even more. The size and position of the Death Head varies for the SS/VT. There are 3 specific positions where the Death Head is stamped on the back of the frog. Why the different sizes of Death Heads, I do not know. There are also the SS/VT WW1 frogs that have the Death Head & Date (very early).
For the SS/TV there is usually only one location for the Standarte Property Stamp. SS/TV Property Stamp can be a combination of Death Head with numbers; Death Head with numbers & Date; Death Head with Letters, Numbers; and sometimes date. Bayonet serial numbers are sometimes found on the SS/TV Frogs.
Waffen SS camp made frogs can be found completely sterile or with the SS VA stamp. SS VA Stamp can also accompany the frog manufacturer logo.
Richard Kuchta
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
Richard, are you establishing a time line by identifying SS/VT and SS/TV (pre-1939)frogs as being marked with the TK in variations with dates and numbers. And Waffen-SS (post 1939) frogs either sterile or with VA stamp?
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
Joe,
I should clarify even more. The size and position of the Death Head varies for the SS/VT. There are 3 specific positions where the Death Head is stamped on the back of the frog. Why the different sizes of Death Heads, I do not know. There are also the SS/VT WW1 frogs that have the Death Head & Date (very early).
For the SS/TV there is usually only one location for the Standarte Property Stamp. SS/TV Property Stamp can be a combination of Death Head with numbers; Death Head with numbers & Date; Death Head with Letters, Numbers; and sometimes date. Bayonet serial numbers are sometimes found on the SS/TV Frogs.
Waffen SS camp made frogs can be found completely sterile or with the SS VA stamp. SS VA Stamp can also accompany the frog manufacturer logo.
Richard Kuchta Speaking in general, there has been a LOT of fakery where supposed "SS" bayonet frogs are concerned. With one of the problems in making a connection for example to the Waffen SS, being that it did not 'officially' exist as such until early 1940, and some other issues. And the existence of VA marked frogs in 1938, and I believe 1937 as well, but I will need to check. FP
Last edited by Fred Prinz - FP; 11/01/2010 11:26 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
Hey FP! Get out the vote.
I was going to remark about earlier VA stamped frogs. Mine is dated "38" with maker number in the 400 range. Will photo tonight.
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,122 Likes: 1 |
Here are the five police issue bayonet frogs I have: from left to right a 1929 Fischer made brown for the newly adopted M29 Prussian Polizeiseitengewehr for Landjagerei, Fischer 1936 Po issue for Schutzpolizei, 1937 Larsen white issue (PO 37) for Schupo parade, 1937 Schweyer brown issue Gend, 1938 Fischer white issue for Schupo (Po 39). The 1937 Larsen white frog is entirely of leather, while the 1938 Fisher is of composite materials that ties in with the decree that parade dress accoutrements should be made of artificial materials to conserve leather. View of the rear but unfortunately I reversed the line-up, so the description should read right to left. Two views of the reverse markings of some: the 1929 Landjagerei and 1936 Schupo, both Fischer. And a view of the two white frog makers: the 1937 Larsen and the 1938 Fischer. It was the Fischer to which someone applied the LAH letters in an ignorant attempt to fake a Leibstandarte frog. Finally three views of the VA/SS 1938 marked frog.
"This hobby is a continuing education" Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 173 |
Hello Another Police frog with Po but without maker mark. Regards Alain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788 |
Joe,
I am sorry if I am confusing the issue. Let me try again. I do have and have seen Waffen SS Bayonet Frogs with the Death Head on the back of the frog. The only bayonet frogs that I have seen the SS VA stamped on have been on the Waffen SS Bayonets. I have never seen a SS VA stamp on a SS/TV Bayonet Frog. The sterile frogs have all been on the Waffen SS Marked 84/98 bayonets as well as the SS marked VZ-24 Bayonets.
Richard Kuchta
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
Joe, A very nice group of frogs. The 1937 date for VA marked frogs is confirmed. The white finished impregnated canvas(?) 1938 Fischer is a rare one, having seen it also in brown, and at least one in black. As for the Vz 24 bayonets (and rifles). The photographs that come immediately to mind show Czech configured bayonets (ie: pommel bright finished with full muzzle rings) and rifles. What I don�t remember offhand, is the date mentioned that the Czech issues were supposed to be turned over to the German Army, to be replaced with German weapons. FP
|
|
|
Forums42
Topics31,671
Posts329,315
Members7,547
|
Most Online5,900 Dec 19th, 2019
|
|
12 members (Vern, seany, den70, Imphy58, Nietzsche, Dave, Luftbud, DAMAST, Evgeniy, atis, benten, BretVanSant),
185
guests, and
133
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|