UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Honor dagger

quote:

Originally posted by derek chapman:
Frederick Stephens asks if, like the SA, the award of an Ehrendolch was indicated by a simple box with a tick in it on an SS member's file. The answer is yes.Derek

I have looked through quite a few SS officers files, and no "ticks" anywhere to be seen for this. No mentioning whatsoever of "Ehrendolch".

There is however special mentioning of the Ehrendegen, but no other edged weapons are to be "ticked off".

Derek, can you elaborate on why you state this? Have you seen any reference in SS personnell-files to "Ehrendolch"?

Best regards,

quote:

The one Jack Angolia shows in his book came out of the woodwork many years ago and was in his collection for many many years-and never for sale. I know because a friend and I tried to buy it back in the very early 60's when he had it on display.
It later was sold to Bob Waitts and Brian Maederer after the attempted robbery at Jack's home when he sold out most of his collection.
In addition, back in the old days, in the collection of mega advanced dagger collector Robert Moses was a pristine 33 type SA Honor Dagger w/ plain blade with a tag and W/ the 35-41 TM.

Houston, This is an SA Honor that you speak of ? Which Angolia book and page as I would like to see which dagger we're talking about.

Dear Hor-Helge,
Here is an example of the first and earlier version of the Stammkarte. It shows the dagger being listed in the second column, as is correct for the period, as the Honour Dagger of the SA and SS.
Derek

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
On the next page the catalog states the Honor Dagger is for the Hohere Fuhrer--which I believe means --High Leader. So--this seems to be the answer--it was there all the time. Honor Dagger for High Leaders.

Could some with a better grasp of German please translate the statment under "Hohere Fuhrer Ehren Dolch". It's something to the effect that "run by the retail trade is forbidden"
Jim

Jim,
It's saying that the dagger is not available for sale through the retail trade.
Derek

Thanks Derek:
I guess the implacation here is that you couldn't just buy one so this does seem to mean that they were all presented as has been speculated in this thread.
Jim

Jim,
Yes, absolutely. It is a common injunction in period documents for special presentations or awards.
Just in case my scan above is a bit too small here is a close-up of the relevant box.
Derek

Derek,
Thank you very much!

I think this is dated 1935, yes?

All the later Stammrollen I have seen (war-time) omit this info.
Ofcourse now all we need to find out is that what is the word "Ehrendolch" meaning in this doc, what dagger are we talking about...

Here are some attached scans of Theodor Eicke's files. He was wearing the chained honor dagger (high leaders dagger) in a pic in TW's book, so I deliberately chose his records.

Cheers,

close up

JR-I said SS and its on page # 65 of Daggers, Bayonets and Fighting Knives of Hitler's Germany by Angolia. Jack also says there was a required certificate and they could be bought but he does not state the reference for this information.

Jim,

My understanding is that no private person could buy any SS dagger, Honor, chained, M33, or Rohm/Himmler. They had to be procured through "official channels" whatever that means.

Derek,

In TW's SS book, there is a photo of an SS document using the term "Ehrendolch" which was issued with the Rohm Dedication daggers. I would guess that in your post above, it is that dagger which is in question.

Everyone,

It was either a very old thread here or an article on a reference book that pointed out that catalogs were advertising material, not a technical document. As such, it was said that the drawings and photos were sometimes enhanced to increase the appeal.

Dave

Tor-Helge,
The document I posted refers to the standard Honour dagger of the SA and the SS, awarded for early membership. Note the man was an SS-Anwarter in 1931 thus fulfilling the criterion for this dagger.
Eicke's dagger was the Honour Dagger for High Leaders and as a such wouldn't have an entry in the standard service file. If you have his complete file look through it and see if the page is there that shows his gifts from the SS. The dagger may well be listed there.
I will find and post a slightly later document that shows the long service Honour Dagger now being listed as a purely SS item.
Derek

Appreciate that Houston and thank you.

My thinking is that these daggers, high leaders SS, were distributed to the recipients more or less "unofficially", not noted in the military records.
This confirms as I see it that we are not talking about an official SS gift or award.
Even the Julleuchter was noted on the service records...

Cheers,

Dave,
I'm not quite sure what you mean about "private individuals" being unable to buy a dagger. Certainly a non-member wouldn't be able to purchase a dagger but all eligible Allgemeine-SS members were expected to purchase their daggers. Officers were required to.
Here is the listing from the 1935 price list showing the relevant items.
Derek

Tor-Helge,
I think such a dagger would indeed be mentioned in an officer's file. The pieces presented to high ranking officers were meticulously recorded. I think somebody mentioned earlier that perhaps these items were possibly obtained by the RFSS for free. I doubt it, note how even the prices of gifts were recorded in the files, from his Allach flag bearer right down to a bunch of carnations for this officer's wife.
Derek
Derek

Private individual = non SS

Thought you all might be interested in the "Ehren" and other daggers from Himmler's gift list usually found included among the "Other" gift category. 1934 was a generous year.

Ross Kelbaugh

All of those 34 listings are Himmler daggers and perhaps those that took part in the Rohm purge.

Now some of those indicate "with signature or dedication" and some don't. Maybe there is no difference--and maybe there is??????
and---Would Himmler have an SS Rohm on his gift list?
I would not think so.
Another thought--Gifts are not usually charged for-Are these free presentations with no cost to the recipient? Looks like it to me.

To Dave�s question on catalogs: My recollection is that there was a discussion somewhere involving a WKC 1940 (?) catalog which had artists drawings of blades - especially as regards the details and coloration. And that the artists representations could be either realistic or artistic - but not necessarily accurate.

And the underlying main point being that a drawing is just a drawing and not a photograph of a production item. FP

I don't think there's any question that Himmler was a prolific gift giver. I had the pleasure of examining a highly engraved Walther PP a few weeks ago that had been presented by him to a high up in the Reich Finance Ministry. Perhaps this individual had some control over the SSs purse strings?
Jim

Something to perhaps provide a different perspective on the topic is the matter of costs. Rounded off: The average "retail" price on the M1933 SS dagger was 7 RM. The M1936 12 RM. The cost to make the chain and center mount for the M1936 dagger should not have been 5 RM - so it seems obvious that some profit was added to the dagger�s price with the benefit going to the SS.

During the same time the cost of a standard German Army service rifle (98K) was 75 RM. While obviously rifle makers did not manufacture them without financial benefit. They were quantity purchases and most likely reasonably close to what it probably cost to make the rifles.

I don�t have a period cost figure for the SS �Honor� daggers in any configuration. But if we use (just for the sake of discussion) 10 x the amount charged for the standard M1933 SS service dagger for an �Honor� dagger that is roughly the cost of one rifle. FP

Thank you Ross for posting those scans, Which files are they from?
Derek

These engraved pistols come in black,silver and gold

The gold

interesting on derek chapman's post of a pricelist and a creditlist

a bunch of flowers "Nelken" = carnation?
costs 20 RM, nearly three times more than a dagger with about RM 7,30