UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Holler navy-Authentic ?

This Holler navy has me scratching my head? Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I don�t like the looks of it. Scabbard doesn�t look right -the detail of the pommel is poor-doesn�t have the typical Holler bands or grip wire-Blade etch doesn�t look like a Holler look at the end of the etch toward the crossguard and compare it to another Holler? I am out in left field here?
http://www.craiggottlieb.com/data/inspect.asp?Item=2543...C+Gorgeous+Condition

Tom, I just got a message from Craig, due to the content of the email the navy in question looks like its on sale at least The pommel looks buffed and re-gilted?? or just really worn and re-gilted??? parts is parts. Bret

cog-hammer:

The e-mail from Craig is his regular monthly newsletter. In this one he states that a number of items on his site are on sale.

I don't believe that he only picked out the Holler navy to be put on sale.

John

Got ya! my bad!!!yeah no crop circles this month maybe Craig can take some time and clear this one up at least. Does he still post here?? Dave??? The last few mails I have sent him on factory tags went unanswered. Maybe he is working??
Bret Van Sant

On Sale for .... what ...$2,400 !~

As you Navy guys know that Hollers have many unique features in them.
WW2- collector is IMO correct.

IMO besides what appears to be a poslished and refinshed dagger, many of the "parts" are not Holler "parts".

There are so many things wrong with that dagger that I would only consider it as "junk".
I do like how he mentions the "green" washer.
Holler's came with leather washers.

-serge-


Here are what a Holler should look like.

You do not need to be familiar with the subtleties of Navy daggers to recognise that piece for what it is.

Serge that�s what I call one lookers great pair of Holler navy�s.

Thanks WW2.

Lanser, go ahead call it. You see what it is...

---- MEGA MINT... - JUNK

Unfortunatly some poor stiff newbie will buy it and then come on one of the forums with it and say "Look what I got"!
Then we will lose another collector.

-serge-

Since you ask....I`m not a Navy collector but I have just disposed of a mint WKC example that I had, full gilt & lacquer! In my opinion none of the gilt on that piece looks right to me. The tone & finish just does not look correct - unless it`s lighting. The pommel is very badly worn & pitted & is certainly not in original finish. I would expect a mint pommel to be very crisp in detail & in all probability to have the swaz highlighted in bright finish to contrast with the matt finish,(my eickhorn also has remnants of bright on the swaz). Scabbard bands also matt finish to contrast with bright fire gilted body. The new buffer stands out like a sore thumb & the port does not look original to the piece either. Can`t comment on the rest of it. Just the opinion of a non expert who looked at it & shook his head. Caveat emptor!

Are we missing something here? it would be nice to see some of the guys with all the years of collecting under their belts give opinions on this. Does some of the finish look re-applied to anyone but us? Bret Van Sant

this is the best gilt on a dagger I own. Crappy pic!!!Bret

Maybe a bit closer? Bret

I certainly agree that this Navy is not a textbook example and the pommel has poor detail. But refinished? I doubt it. I have never seen a Navy that I thought was refinished. Why? Because the methods used in WWII are , as I understand it, not available today. So--costs would be considerable and the resulting look would not be right.
When it comes to colors of gold gilting it has been my experience that photos often don't display correct colors.
In this case IMO one would have to have it in hand to determine if in fact it had been refinished.

And another, I'm sure to be looking at apple and oranges here. Sorry best I can do with the phots. My bad again!! Bret

Oh! That is very nice cog-hammer.
I see you have the seldom seen optional chased scabbard rings on this minty Alcoso.

Any chance to see a bit more of this beauty?

-serge-

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
I certainly agree that this Navy is not a textbook example and the pommel has poor detail. But refinished? I doubt it. I have never seen a Navy that I thought was refinished. Why? Because the methods used in WWII are , as I understand it, not available today. So--costs would be considerable and the resulting look would not be right.
When it comes to colors of gold gilting it has been my experience that photos often don't display correct colors.
In this case IMO one would have to have it in hand to determine if in fact it had been refinished.

I believe they used mercury in the fire gilting process so need-less to say it was a highly risky venture and most of the guys probably didn�t reach retirement. The scabbard on this just doesn�t look right to me Houston are those eyelets post-war? Bret I remember many years ago when you bought this navy I tried myself but you beat me to the punch it is a great looking example.

The ring eyelets are like those used on post war scabbards but the rest of the scabbard looks original so I would say No. Post war scabbards that have these type eyelets are almost always the lightning bolt type and have bands made as a part of the scabbard.

Well, I wish Craig was still around but guess we will have some doubts on that one, no biggie anyway. Sometimes dealers miss the net. I hope he catches is slip on this one however. Maybe its not gilt but a plating re-applied?? ah... who knows its just does not look right to some of us.
Tom,I think I beat you by a few minutes. I was pumped to get this from Chip. You know it was lost in the post in the days just after 9/11, well not lost but in the mix took about 2&1/2 weeks to get it. I was so lucky to find the tag also.I'm not sure its worthy of a tag but hell its mine . I'll give this one to the kid I hope or maybe spend the cash someday on a vette upgrade. Funny how we mark our time in this hobby huh? two guys trying to get the same piece. I remember when I called him back he said a guy named Tom just called after you did.What was the one you bought? I remember he had 2 at the time. Shoot I think I may have put it on a credit card at that time??? It seemed like a ton of money then. Hey! those were the good ole' days on the forum also remember, good raffles, sunday chats, Jason, Gailen,lots of guys that you never thought would give a regular guy the time of day were all over the place. Good info lots of neat items to talk about.What one did you buy Tom??
Bret van Sant
ah the good ole' days at GDC

I think the original finish - Fire Guilt - was gold dissolved in mercury and then heated to evaporate the mercury and leave a thin gold finish. Note I said "I think" and I'd be glad if anyone has a better description.

While it might have cleared your sinuses, I suspect that (as said above)they did not reach retirement ... if such a think existed then.


Dave

The Best "Gilt" I've got is on this C&J.

-serge-

The gilting description by Mr Hohaus is essentially correct.
It is a process banned for many years in the
Western world BUT still used in China/India
etc etc.Mercury is used still in the Lighting industry but has been reduced in content
and will be banned in the EU this year.
You cannot dispose of a fluorescent or compact
"dead lamp" except via a certified recycler
or Environmentalist Agency.
Just info.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

I had to study up on this for something recently..This applies directly to your guys daggers.
I guess not a job someone wanted to do..

Here's the complete process:

Fire-gilding or Wash-gilding is a process by which an amalgam of gold is applied to metallic surfaces, the mercury being subsequently volatilized, leaving a film of gold or an amalgam containing from 13 to 16% of mercury. In the preparation of the amalgam the gold must first be reduced to thin plates or grains, which are heated red hot, and thrown into previously heated mercury, until it begins to smoke. Upon stirring the mercury with an iron rod, the gold totally disappears. The proportion of mercury to gold is generally as six or eight to one. When the amalgam is cold it is squeezed through chamois leather for the purpose of separating the superfluous mercury; the gold, with about twice its weight of mercury, remains behind, forming a yellowish silvery mass with the consistency of butter.

When the metal to be gilt is wrought or chased, it ought to be covered with mercury before the amalgam is applied, that this may be more easily spread; but when the surface of the metal is plain, the amalgam may be applied to it direct. When no such preparation is applied, the surface to be gilded is simply bitten and cleaned with nitric acid. A deposit of mercury is obtained on a metallic surface by means of quicksilver water, a solution of mercury(II) nitrate, the nitric acid attacking the metal to which it is applied, and thus leaving a film of free metallic mercury.

The amalgam being equally spread over the prepared surface of the metal, the mercury is then sublimed by a heat just sufficient for that purpose; for, if it is too great, part of the gold may be driven off, or it may run together and leave some of the surface of the metal bare. When the mercury has evaporated, which is known by the surface having entirely become of a dull yellow color, the metal must undergo other operations, by which the fine gold color is given to it. First, the gilded surface is rubbed with a scratch brush of brass wire, until its surface be smooth; then it is covered over with a composition called gilding wax, and again exposed to the fire until the wax is burnt off.

This wax is composed of beeswax mixed with some of the following substances: red ochre, verdigris, copper scales, alum, vitriol, and borax. By this operation the color of the gilding is heightened; and the effect seems to be produced by a perfect dissipation of some mercury remaining after the former operation. The dissipation is well effected by this equable application of heat. The gilt surface is then covered over with potassium nitrate, alum or other salts, ground together, and mixed up into a paste with water or weak ammonia. The piece of metal thus covered is exposed to a certain degree of heat, and then quenched in water.

By this method its color is further improved and brought nearer to that of gold, probably by removing any particles of copper that may have been on the gilt surface. This process, when skilfully carried out, produces gilding of great solidity and beauty; but owing to the exposure of the workmen to mercurial fumes, it is very unhealthy, and further there is much loss of mercury.

This method of gilding metallic objects was formerly widespread, but fell into disuse as the dangers of mercury toxicity became known. Since fire-gilding requires that the mercury be volatilized to drive off the mercury and leave the gold behind on the surface, it is an extremely dangerous thing to do. Breathing the fumes generated by this process can quickly result in serious health problems, such as neurological damage and endocrine disorders, since inhalation is a very efficient route for mercuric compounds to enter the body. See Mercury toxicity for more details about mercury and its effects on the body. Numerous contrivances have been introduced to obviate these serious evils, but the process has generally been supplanted by the electoplating of gold over a nickel substrate, which is more economical and less dangerous.

Thank you! excellent explanation, always wondered about the process.

Is there an obvious way to differentiate between electroplated gilding and fire gilding?

Red

Yes, excellent explaination Gaspare.

To follow up on Red Barron's question: Assuming one was going to "electroplate" over a old "fire gilt", would in the process the old gilting have to be removed and surface polished to allow proper and uniform adhesion of the electroplate?
And is it correct that in area where all of the old gilting may not have been removed that a "residue" or "bubbling" will occur as perhaps evident in the pommel eagle wing recesses on subject dagger when electroplating?

-serge-

Hey! that sounds like that would make sense for what I see on this dagger. Makes great logic to me. Like on Wagner's navy about much better shots than I have but the lines are crisp on his pommel and not rounded over. I know Tom takes issue with the scabbard but mine is just the gilt my bad for spelling this wrong all these years! also. If it is odd lighting in the dagger in question then the lines should be crisp given the the "gild" or gilt. And with the recess areas having the odd look then if this was replated with another process then the removal of the 1st finish may result in the lack of crispness if I can say that. I'm doing some back ground on nickel plating as it relates to WWII period usgi bring backs for the nickel plated forum and many of the guns were buffed and loose a bit of detail in that process. Hey guys great topic we wondered into!!! Bret Van Sant

The reason for my question is that of the 4 Navy daggers I have, 2 have a "typical" gilded finish, one is an Eick, the other a hammered scabbard WKC. My Weyersberg has a very deep, rich gold which is almost bronze and translucent in apperance, the last is a late plain blade WKC which has a very bright gold finish which is quite yellow compared to the others, similar to Serge's example.

I'm aware that at least 3 finishes are seen, fire guilded, electroplated gold and lacquered polished brass, maybe more.

I am unsure how to identify the difference between the fire gilt and "normal" gilt...

Any tips?

Re--Fire gilt or regular gilt ( Whatever that is) I have several Navy daggers made by various firms. # 1. I doubt that all used the exact same process # 2. Some may have been double plated or even triple plated. # 3 All have been stored and used in different ways resulting in almost--No two being exactly the same color. Looking at my 15 or so--that is what I see.

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
Well, I wish Craig was still around but guess we will have some doubts on that one, no biggie anyway. Sometimes dealers miss the net. I hope he catches is slip on this one however. Maybe its not gilt but a plating re-applied?? ah... who knows its just does not look right to some of us.
Tom,I think I beat you by a few minutes. I was pumped to get this from Chip. You know it was lost in the post in the days just after 9/11, well not lost but in the mix took about 2&1/2 weeks to get it. I was so lucky to find the tag also.I'm not sure its worthy of a tag but hell its mine . I'll give this one to the kid I hope or maybe spend the cash someday on a vette upgrade. Funny how we mark our time in this hobby huh? two guys trying to get the same piece. I remember when I called him back he said a guy named Tom just called after you did.What was the one you bought? I remember he had 2 at the time. Shoot I think I may have put it on a credit card at that time??? It seemed like a ton of money then. Hey! those were the good ole' days on the forum also remember, good raffles, sunday chats, Jason, Gailen,lots of guys that you never thought would give a regular guy the time of day were all over the place. Good info lots of neat items to talk about.What one did you buy Tom??
Bret van Sant
ah the good ole' days at GDC

Bret what a pleasure to have you back posting on the forum. I ended up with a Holler-hammered scabbard-I sold it years ago. Maybe we should try the chat again? It was a blast.

The subject ""Frankenstein" is now - ON HOLD!

Hope the new buyer is happy with this "humped up" piece..cause he's going to have it a very long time.

By the way Tom your right there is something wrong with the scabbard IMO it's...postwar. The blade is ...postwar, and it looks like the the whole piece might be postwar.

-serge-

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
The subject ""Frankenstein" is now - ON HOLD! :eek

-serge-

Expensive mistake, must be good to be the king!too many shoot from the hip collectors these days.
Tom, yeah! if we can still get in the chat thing that would be fun. Thanks for the reminder on the other navy. I just couldnt decide on which one, The later alcose mark sealed it though, figured they didnt make them for long with that mark. On you holler,did yours have knot? I dont remember?? hey! again thanks for the luft belt hanger it looks great, condition was a exact match. worth more than 40 bucks !! Bret Van Sant

"The blade is post war" Why? "The whole thing is post war" Why? Just because you don't like the looks of the finish color ( from photos which may not reflect the true color ) and just because the scabbard retaining rings are different ( They WERE used by Eickhorn on high quality period pieces) and just because the piece is not text book does NOT make it a fake. Parts? Yes. Improper felt pad? Yes. A fake? Post war? IMO that has not been proven in any way. Serge-no offense but I think you went a bit too far in saying the piece is a fake-post war and the other comments you made. Is this personal? It seems so.

Why is it fake? postwar? Why.... that's a fair question. Actually glad you asked Houston.
This is actually an informative tread with good participation. And I agree is when someone say FAKE OR POSTWAR he should be able to get into the details to state his case. Cause we all know the "Devil's in the Details."

Holler was an interesting maker of 2nd Navy daggers. There were certain features that are found on Holler manufactured 2nd Navy daggers that were almost always "clear and present" on Navy daggers made by this firm during the 3rd Reich.
Holler never changed their etch. So each etch must be the same. They did however have a slight variation of their company logo.
On the base of etch on the logo side of the "field" of the blade is this series of circles type design...found on all period produced Holler blades that I have seen.





Now take a look at photo 5 on "suspect" dagger and you will see it is missing this design.

-serge-

On all Holler's with hammered scabbards that I have examined, be it "early" or "late", the scabbard "ball" is always finished with a fine and lighter hammering as in these two examples.



On photo #8 on "suspect" dagger this is not evident.

On scabbards of both "hammered" and "engraved" for Holler used "flush mounted headless" screws.



photo #10 of "suspect" dagger showns "dome head" screws. And scabbard bands are not "Holler" either.


Image from Tom Wittmann's Navy book, page 279.

Holler grip wire is the "springy" wire type. No longer avalable (I believe) in the "after-market."



Photo #12 of "subject dagger showns No "Holler Springy-wire"


Image taken from Tom Wittmann's Naval book, page 278.

On "suspect" dagger Photo #14 & 17, Pommel eagle details and sholders are wrong for "Holler". And the whole thing looks ( to me ) like it was made by some kid in "Metal Shop".

There are a couple other things that IMO are not right with this ..... but I've had enough.

If buyer should send the subject dagger to Tom Wittmann for a COA and he says "It's Good"...then I shall "stand corrected".

Is it personal? Yes! Personally I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT. I see nothing but a piece of JUNK!

Are those words too harsh? I don't use it often. However I can't even call this a "Parts Piece" because I don't see any GOOD parts!

But that me and MY OPINION. Others may have differing points of view and I welcome it. -No offence taken-

Regards,

-serge-

An observation I've made on the repro Hollers is that the seams around the sides of the hammered scabbards are smooth. The period ones I have seen are always hammered all the way around, including the sides. The one in question does appear to have smooth, un-hammered sides?

Serge put an end to to that argument. As a new collector I want to thank you for calling out some of these dealers on their suspect pieces. Also for a very educational and objective review of that piece. It seems that things that happened before I joined this forum have clouded some individuals objectivity and I repeatedly see the "you're making it personal" comment. As far as I can tell there was nothing personal in this thread. The sharing of your knowledge is very appreciated.

I'm not much of an expert into KM daggers but I have found this thread extremelly informative.

Well done Serge !

I think that we should really find a way to keep these threads from dissapearing after a while.
We have lost so many great informations in the past and it is just a shame that this info is no more available for the new collectors entering the hobby.
There's got to be a way.

Call Gustavo, he's a computer wizard.