UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Unmarked 84/98 bayonet

Picked up this beauty yesterday. The bayonet is totally void of any markings but the scabbard is marked 41 ddl and serial numbered 6646a. I would imagine it should have been paired up to an unmarked scabbard. Both pieces look unused, grip plates are perfect and the scabbard shows no signs of a frog ever being installed.

2

3

4

The bayonet I believe is a contract Spain used a lot of bayonets like this one.

it also exist totaly unmarked german commercial bayonets... so the scrabbard is not matching.

the surface of the bayonet lloks like a produktion of 1944-1945.

it is not a spain or a portugies bayonet.

i think it is a commercial bayonet for state organisations out of the end of the war.

Bayonet is a late 1943 Horster commercial bayonet. Find an unmarked late war scabbard and you'll have a nice set.

I didn't think it was Spanish, I was also thinking late war commercial. If anyone has a nice scabbard to sell let me know.

Regards,
MAZZ

From memory, without checking, I'm inclined to go more with possibly a 1943/44 Eickhorn (cof) commercial. By late 1944 H�rsters looked like these two examples. With very pronounced signs of rapid/crude finishing. Regards to All, FP

Nope Eickhorn FP !! Their blades have a VERY typical blade finish with crude vertical machining all the way to the tip of the blade.
This one looks like Horster or WKC, and cannot be WKC otherwise it would say so... and it's not a late '44, more likely a '43, finish is not that bad (or good, depending on how much we love crude finish), that's why I think it's a Horster.

Again, from memory, and Andy can correct me on this: My recollection is that the H�rster�s had the red plastic grips with the Waffenamt/519 barely visible underneath the flashguard. With more of my attention focused on the wood grips, having at least one wood gripped example with a partially ground off �cof� still present on the blade.

At one time I lined them all up side by side (H�rster, WKC, Eickhorn, P. Weyersberg and Coppel) with the dated military issues. And may still have some notes somewhere - but where that �somewhere� is at the moment. Best Regards, FP

Hello friends, i would tend to cof too, but its hard to say without looking under grips, the mashining on blade looks similar to Hoerster,these grips looks like little oversized? so both producers used wood and plastic on the bayonets. i could not probably destined only from these pictures.best regards,Andy

Grips look definitely late 43 Horster or WKC, I have some 43asw and 43cvl with this kind of oversize. But it cannot be WKC, otherwise it would be marked. It is for sure not a Eickhorn, blade on Eickhorns start to have their full length vertical machining marks in mid 1942, so no way an Eickhorn.
I'll post pictures to illustrate what I say later !
Arnaud

Arnaud, If you want to post some pictures that's fine. But I just pulled out a couple of bayonets to see for myself - instead of trying to remember what is what (I'm in multiple, multiple, areas and don't currently spend as much time with bayonets as I did in the past) .

You are correct, and it looks more like a H�rster. Albeit one with wood grips, so I'm thinking of some kind of possibly a transitional, having seen more with the red plastic grips (?).

With My Best Regards, Fred

Spain never purchased 84/98 bayonets from Germany.
More than this, never purcahsed bayonets from this country with the exception of first Mauser 1893 serie that was made by SIMSOM at Suhl.
If you put away grips, you will able to see if it is german or spanish, as they were radically different.
More, weight is very different, german one weigts more.

How is then some German SG84/98 are marked with PR8 marking? There exist M36 variation with barell ring and wout them.best regards,Andy

Not German.
Are Spanish models 41 and/or 43, in German fashion but ligther, and made in 2 pieces. If you disassebly the grips in a Spanish and a German "84/98" you will se they are differents.
What I can say is that any german weaponary left here when German Franco aid in the SCW went back home. Any bayo could be marked in such fashion. But never was an Spanish contract or same thing like that.

I am with Andy on this one. Whether or not it was as the result of a formal contract, or simply military hardware sent there one way or another, commercial German made bayonets ended up in Spain. The PR. 8 marked examples that come to mind are bright finished with blued scabbards and have no flashguards (and like the Portuguese contract examples no maker marks).

Underneath the wood grips many of them show where something was ground off. I have not looked at it for a long time, but with an example that I have (w/o the PR. 8 marking) there is a later style (straightwing) Eagle/WaA 253 stamped into the one piece forged tang. That so many of the Waffenamts were ground off suggests to me that it was a deliberate act to conceal the true source of the bayonets. Which means that other evidence (like a "paper trail") may have been either not been created, or was destroyed to conceal German involvement.

PS: Also, mixed in with some of the obsolete/surplus Spanish rifles imported to the U.S. a number of years ago for collectors, there were rifles of German Third Reich origin (and some other countries as well). FP

AS I told you any of the bayonets carried by German troops in the SCW remains here. But never was an "Spanish contract", mainly because we had no a single dolar to pay for nothing in such days....

Y mi saludo a usted, se�or,

What about the �Standard Modell" Mauser short rifles made for export? With unlike rifles for the Wehrmacht, having bright bolts and blued receivers and barrels (like the bayonets). Using the same standard low (German) style 4 cm bayonet mounting bar.

Having seen with the surplus arms that came from Spain, not only some examples of the �Standard Modell�. But ex-Wehrmacht arms with all of the Waffenamts fully intact - not erased.

Con mis mejores deseos, FP

Saludos a ti amigo !!
SCW is Disneyland for weapons collector.
All European countries and many from far away sold their old surpluss weapons to the Legal Govemt of the II Republic. Big weapons firms find a gold mine in our bloody years, comtrabandists...Other send military "help", paid at hi prices of course. Many of theese old stuff, from both sides, stay here , was reused and reused and later stored. So I can say that 95% of the bayonets, and rifles, from 1880 to 1930 were in the war. One , few or many.
So its possible you find one of every bayonet or gun of that days with Spainsh marks.
About the 84/98 bayonets used by German expedicionary corps with Franco, the bayonets found are marked, S codes mainly and 36, 37 year stamped.
They were German army full units, and carried their official issued bayonets. Maybe any officers could wear a private purcahsed bayo.
But never was a contract, as Portuguese did.
We made our own Mauser K98 model, with different bayonet in 1943. The Spanish copy of the German 84/98 for this Mauser is a marginal type , very few were made. And german purchased may weapons from Spain, because they could not replace their losts. Is not realistic belive they sent bayos or other weaponnery from 39 to the end of the war to Spain.

Great to have a member who know more about spain, there are some bayonets, marked by collectors as M36 with angle pommel and barell ring and wout flashguard. Some are production of FN Toledo, some are evidently german made? so it must be not a spain contract but for this is problematic found other country.
Second are blankos that was believed to send to Spain prior 1939, they are not marked by WaA proofs, so no with Wehrmacht.
Third You are right about the using of S code and 1936 and 37 by Legion Condor and other surface units that helped Franco.
Fourth what was the equipment of Blue division in Russia?
Fifth some collectors believe that Sowietunion send about 300000 pcs of Gras 1874 to Spain, is this true, it should be obsolete in the period. thanks for Your help,Andy

Spanish Francos dream in USSR troops carried their blue shirt under the German uniform. No more all, the rest was provided by Germans. Heer was not very happy with it.
Yes the called M36, also called "Modelo de aviaci�n" because was used mainly in the Air fields, has many variants, with, witout ring marked FNT, unmarked, long and short. All of them made in Toledo.
Were different and to fit the M43 they must to take off the part picture above.
There were any "doubts" in the M42 desingners...to fit the official bayonet, the one pictured in my last mail, you need an adaptor, and to fit the residual bayonet, the 84/98 type no.
This way to proced could have an explanation, in the Mauser 1893/16 bayonet was officially aproved in 1913, 3 years before the rifle. With the bayo could have happened similar.
Its no reallistic using an adaptor for the bayonet officially issued. Sorry my Old School English....

Dont know about the Grass...could be true.
My grand was iddued in the Basque Army ( Eusko Gudarostea) with an Austrian black powder single shot, that he replaced as soon as he could with a confiscated Mauser 7 mm.
So Grass, Werder, mannlicher, shotguns, Winchester 95....whatever you can imagine.

Hello, thanks for opinion, as the weapons of SCW were heavily used so i believe the depot condition Gras was never used in Spain, when then remain in depots? But it is not true in reality.
The M36 are certainly confirmed made by germans, problem is what for country were then delivered when not to Spain? I added a picture of FM piece from Ebay. Some were WaA marked under grips.The piece is with ring on crosspiece.
What for rifles and bayonets were used by Blued Division? Spanish or german? thanks,Andy

Blue Division stared from Spain dressed with Falange Uniforms, in Germany were dressed and armed as a German unit and sent to USSR.
Back later, who still alive , to Spain with their Falange uniform.

There is widely beliving that every person who speak Spanish is from Spain.
There were many Spanish speaking countries in South america with German armament, during XIX and XX c.
Also one speaking Portuguese.

Thanks for info on PR8, we had for long time a opinion about Parque Regional nr.8. Unfortunally i dont saw any bayonets with other number, the PR7 are stamped too?
To M36 piece pictured, we have no links to other spanish language countries, the South America mainly used other type of bayonets. But certainly its possible.
There exist one probably M43 bayonet marked on crosspiece EX225, so from this were assumed the german blanko contract with EX numbers could be too for Spain. best regards,Andy

Yes are less common but not rare the marked P.R.7
As I know are the only Spanish bayonets that carried other than maker marks. We are not used to stamp armaments with regimentals, or unit marks. Its not a comon practice.

I�m in agreement that: �But never was a contract, as Portuguese did.�

I also think that using Disneyland as an analogy is not a bad way to try and explain why so many different kinds of weapons ended up in Spain. More recently the influx of surplus/obsolete arms from China to the U.S. showed the same kind of end result. Said arms being a conglomeration of arms from all over the world, as well as domestic production, from over a long period of time. Many of the arms were purchased/acquired from other foreign users as surplus or military aid. Along with some that were purchased new by Chinese purchasing commissions.

So I think that we may need to clarify what a �contract� weapon might be to be considered in that category. Briefly I�m going to touch on not only specially ordered/purchased weapons, but also the purchase of the more generic or export models. One example that was cited are the Portuguese contract rifles which were made to order for the customer with the national crest etc. (but not on the bayonets). However, many nations purchased Mauser rifles with the more generic (factory) type markings from not just Germany. But from CZ and FN as well - with a long list of customers. With many bayonets being either maker marked and unmarked depending on the customer. With some customers ordering specific types or designs of of bayonets (type of finish, length etc.).

Germany itself during WW II purchased 6000 Astra 400 pistols identifiable only by the serial number range having only Spanish markings. While some other Spanish made pistols that were purchased have the German acceptance stamps. With my point being that the August 1941 letter from ASTRA UNCETA Y CIA which formalized the contract - shows that it was in fact a contract for firearms ie: a "contract" weapon. Even if it had no national crest or anything special about it. Except for (with the above mentioned example) the serial number being within the range for the purchase contract.

Mis mejores que respecta a los dos, FP

There is a EX225 on crossguard of M43 bayonet, i believe Dennis O. collection, we assume it must be a spain configuration the EX digits. best regards,Andy

Andy, That�s an interesting piece of information!! A Spanish M43 with the �EX� markings. In George Wheeler�s (ORPO) excellent book, �Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet�. The German made "EX" prefix marked 98K example he shows has pommel Waffenamts like the Portuguese bayonets. In fact it�s only about 114 numbers away. I remember when a batch turned up more than a few years ago. They all had that �fresh from the jungle� look that many of the bayonets that came from South and Central America have. So I thought that the �EX� marked bayonets might have come from one of Portugal's colonies. FP

I have problem add the picture, unfortunally we dont have the overall view,but the ricasso looks narrow to compare of normal SG84/98.