UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum How many daggers hidden in Germany

Hi guys, Just a simple Q.
I have just moved to Kassel / Germany for work and I'am curious.

Do you think its easy or hard to find good daggers here in central Germany? Do you think there is actually a lot of daggers left here, or have the Russians and Americans taken most??

Any thoughts are welcome. I will try the local antique shops soon.

PJ

I suspect that there are quite a few daggers and other personal relics of the Third Reich hidden away in the backs of wardrobes or in boxes in the attic.

I think that besides antique dealers, you should go to flea markets, etc, and become known. Then they might show you what is under the table

Dave

There is still a lot of stuff in Germany and in neighboring countries, especially in France (Alsace region).
I know that Tom Johnson and Craig are "regular" tourist at the Kassel and Stuttgart show in Germany.
Because it is still considered "taboo" by most Western European countries, we don't hear much about it. However, I strongly suspect that there is as much stuff in Germany and France, as there is in the US.
Many Europeans have collections that are equal, in quality and quantity, than those owned by Wittmann and Johnson.
Why don't we never hear about them ?
Simply because many of them do not comprehend english.
For instance, Colonel Belanger ( French Army Officer ) has the nicest collection that I have ever seen. I have to admit though that I've never seen Wittmann or Johnson's collection.
He has even written a book with his whole collection being pictured.
Just stunning !

It seems that some of the neater stuff tends to pop up in the midst of home remodeling jobs in Germany. Apparentely many secreted items such as daggers,swords,pistols etc. away to avoid turning them over to authorities and this had been forgotten in the intervening years.
Jim

I bet that the most dagger-intensive place in the world is the part of thhe ISAR river that runs through Munich

Conversation from Munich in early 1945:

SS Mann Schultz: "The %#$&# Americans will be here in 2 hours"

Mrs. Schultz: "You better get rid of all that schwartz stuff you got. I told you not to join those nasty thungs and you wouldn't listen to me and now we'll be ruined and my Mother was right about you and why couldn't you get a good job in a butcher's shop so at least we could eat well like my sister's husband ??

SS Mann Schultz: "Where are the matches? I'll burn it"

Mrs Schultz: "No - the neighbors will see. Put it in the old baby carriage and I will take it to the river"

..... PLOOF ..... PLOOF .... PLOOF



Dave

The rivers have more then daggers I'm sure, I wonder what a dredging would turn up. I know my friend Hans said his mother buried all his metals, and burned his panzer wrap because the old ruski's were not to bright in telling the deferent�s between SS stuff and Panzer Skulls, so he wasn�t going to take any chances. But he dug up all the metals and award documents that he saved. I bet a lot of then could turn up buried in a mason jar or an old ammo can.

Dutchy,

I started collecting just a couple of years ago when I lived in Germany. The comments here so far are true. There is still a considerable amount of wonderful 3rd Reich material there of coarse, but it is not always easy to find for a good price.

There are wonderful larger shows - the one in Stuttgart was very good. But, the prices are not "bargains" for the most part. The sellers know what they have and ask a premium for the items. There are also small shows, usually held on Sundays at the local Sporthalle or similar place. These can be very entertaining and enjoyable, but they are sometimes hard to find as they don't advertise very much.



The best way to find out about the shows is to find one militaria show - ask around or search german web pages. After you have found your first one, you will see flyers for the rest of them when you pay your small Euro fee and get your hand stamped. That is how I learned about when and where they were.





They are also fun, and have some very nice people there. They usually sell good coffee, beer, and food there as well.

I took my GDC nickname, b�rse, from the signs in villages that meant there were 3rd Reich militaria shows there. They would plaster the signs on the village Hauptstra�es indicating where the shows were.

As has been said here, the Flohmarkt is a fun place to search for things as well. Usually, these are held on Samstag morgen. In the summer, I used to find some held outside in places such as the auto kinos. In the winter, some villages may have designated places where they are held once a month or so.

On the issues of repros and fakes, yes, there are alot of them. I just recently traded a dagger to a fellow GDC member that I bought at a Bavarian show, and it was a parts dagger. There are copies and cobbled pieces galore in Germany. The Germans don't just peddle the bad stuff off to non-Germans, but to their countrymen as well. I have seen some screaming arguments at shows when a fellow German realized he was ripped off and confronted the seller the next month he came to town. Even I know that a guy yelling "Schweinhund" to another fellow means he is very ticked off. You have to be very careful - don't assume that just because you bought it in Germany is has a better chance of being original. Depending on where you buy it, the opposite may be true.

The Polizei do have to enforce the laws against displaying the swastika and things like that, but if the items are covered with stickers or tape, they try to look the other way most of the time. The Green Party has pushed even stricter laws requiring very detailed documentation when selling the items, but I am told these are for the most part ignored.





Anyway, happy collecting. I envy you, and wish I still lived there from time to time. It is a wonderful place, and you are sure to find something very special with a little effort.

Take care.

When I liven in Germany (Frankfurt) nothing was availbale (except coins and stamps (like e-bay!!! ) I was told that the sale of any other 3rd R. material was illegal in germany. Are these shows an exception, or is the legislation be city??? That always confused me. When I went to Munich I went in a shop that sold original badges, which would have been illegal to sell in Frankfurt. Can anyone clear this up?

Neat, cool pictures.
I like to see pics of other shows.

Pat,

I'll see if I have more pics somewhere. It is great, but I am convinced there are more fakes per square mile in Germany than anywhere else. Take that Army that I traded to Dagger Addict. That was the second dagger I ever bought, and I had if for years not knowing it had problems. I also knew that dealer personally, and I thought he would never steer me wrong. But, live and learn I guess.

The great thing about collecting in Germany is if you speak German. I know just very little, but if you are fluent, it opens up doors. Believe me.

P.S.

I love that chained SS you showed recently.

Well guys I have tried hard to find good items in Germany and I do believe that there is some but you have to do much work ferreting out. I have been going to Europe for a few years on Hockey trips and taken a couple days to try and find some good stuff. My experience was not good. I saw more junk and parts daggers in a couple days than a whole week on Ebay :> Yes, I did find a couple nice swords but in my opinion the very best of the best is right here in USA and Canada. I did meet one guy in Hungary who took me up to his apartment and I nearly fell over! Just amazing collection- so never say never. When you do find a good piece often it's not a bargain. If you are going to go over for a trip, sure look. I doubt it would be worthwhile to take a trip with sourcing good stuff as the sole purpose unless you have contacts.

I've lived in Hamburg for the past year and for four years in Wiesbaden during the 1990s.
I can tell you that there definitely are NOT as many good daggers and swords in Germany as you will find readily available in the States. However, there are lots of uniforms, medals, and documents still here. Why? I've been told that at the end of the war the Allies sent out notices that all weapons (including ceremonial daggers, etc.) were to be delivered to the town halls on specific days. The Allied soldiers then picked through and took what they wanted. The rest they drove tanks over to destroy. You have to remember that: 1. Germans are very 'rules' driven and probably complied to the letter of the request. 2. They were probably very afriad of the Allied occupation and sought to do exactly as told.
If true, this is probably the primary reason that you don't find much in the way of quality daggers, left in Germany. Of course, there are collectors with the funds to pull together stuff from all over the globe. Thus, there are some very nice dagger collections in Germany.
The shows are good here. And, when you do find daggers, the German dealers often do not pay attention to rare maker marks. You can often purchase a rare maker for the same as a common Eickhorn! On rare occassions, home cleaners do find daggers. Last year, one found a chained ss, M33 and Jule Leuchter in a home - all of which I picked up. But, that is the exception to the rule.

Just my two cents, Doug

I am planning a trip back to Nurnberg this May for a 10 day vacation. Does anyone know any contacts, dealers, or old atics I should check out?? I have a friend out there that knows some, but I was wondering if anyone here knows anything on a more professional level? I appreciate any help, Regards, Craig.

I'll tell ya, what I'd really like to do is take my medal detector to the old Nurnberg stadium and start digging that place up, but I'm shure I'd get arrested, or fined..

Thanks guys for the suggestions and comments. I will do my best and I hope I will find some nice stuff. The thing is that Kassel has been COMPLETELY bombed in the war. Not a single old house left..so attic finds will not be left in Kassel. On my free sunday I have found alot of antique shops which I will be visiting shortly when they are actually open...lol. My findings will be published soon..and I hope I can make you guys drool...

PJ

to answer your question yes there is still a lot of good stuff here, in Hamburg you have Helmut Weitze shop expensive but good and you have the satisfaction of knowing that youre not getting ripped off with a fake, 3 yrs ago I got a nice Luftwaffe pilots badge for 80 Euros and I just got it valued at Delev Neimans He said its a early rare variety un marked Junkers worth 700 Euros, not bad for nosing around.

Boerse - That show looks like Flonheim to me. Am I correct?

Well guys I visited a lot of kasseler antique shops and none seem to have what we would be looking for. No dressdaggers to be found!! Only alot of patches and medals!! Not my thing.
The daggers they did have where sold for in access of 500 euros within a day for what to me seemed average to bad SA's daggers. Prices in Germany (Kassel) seem very overated to me...germans see swasticas and $$$$$$$$$$$ bills. Crappy daggers not worth more than $200 on US market get sold easily for double!! Its time you US blokes start selling the german crap back to Germany!!

Peter

Sorry Jeff - I didn't see your post made last month until this thread just came back up. Yes - that was the Flonheim show. Good eye.

I thought so. I shared a table there for about a year. Never sold though, only bought.