|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Those of us who collect SS daggers have noticed that there is no consistency to the numbers on SS daggers. They are found stamped in many fonts and sizes as well as what looks like jeweler-engraved. Most are on or under the rear of the lower crossguard, but other places too. Sometimes multiple places.
It would be interesting to see varying examples and I think it would help newer collectors.
Here is one of mine. It appears to be engraved. It is on my K&M dagger - the first one ever found - that is in TW's book.
Dave
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Here is a really interesting one. A Gembruch that is also in that book.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
If you look at it straight on, there is nothing that interesting except that it is a low number. But, if you tilt it back and forth in the light, you can see that the number was scratched onto the crossguard. I surmise that the owner wanted to make 100% sure that the guy doing the stamping got the number correct
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Great tread Dave Here some close up pics of the SS Klaas M 33 with SS number 137-003 and Gruppenumber III on crossguard. Its very rare to see the same numbers engraved on the crossguard and scabbard trout. Thanks too Paul Hogle for helping me with this SS dagger some time ago Enjoy the pics SS collectors The lower crossguard and the scabbard throat are Jeweler engraved "137003" Again all the fits are there. This has never been apart since the day it left the factory. The scabbard and blade have always been together as evidenced by the engraving
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,304
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,304 |
That is one stunning piece. You can't go wrong when buying from Paul.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Jarle:
Very, very nice... and I totally agree with Pat.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Im glad you like it John & Pat That Klaas is a sure Keeper in my SS collection. I wish it could talk` to me
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Dave. have your Rzm 7-29 gruppemark I or is there rest of more digits from gruppemarking ?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
The mark is "I" But it is not an M7/29
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Thanks Dave. I have seen that dagger in the book of Witty many times. I was to fast to write sorry A great and very rare dagger with sircel Klitterman & Moog makers mark. LH
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
On the stamped examples, it is interesting to see the 'ghost' numbers where the number die struck more than once....from the rebound of the hard hit. Apparently, it took a pretty good bit of force to stamp these that deep. Sometimes they spared the group mark, others, just stamp over it as in this example.
John Merling [email protected]MAX Life member OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS) OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc) NRA Life member
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
It is cool to be able to put a face to the owner, even if he was a WWI vet called back up to duty in the SS office....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Great pics John. Thanks for sharing.
I have another Early Klaas with a 5 digit SS number. The Gruppemark is stamped over .
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
Klaas SS 33 Number 70093
LH
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Here is an interesting crossguard I got on a real junker of a dagger. Actually an M7/29.
The number is stamped on the guard THREE times. The guy must be paranoid.
I have since cleaned the guard agressively to get rid of that stain. The stain, by the way, is what that green goo (verdigris) eventually does to nickel silver.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Here is what it looks like now
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Rear.
It took a lot of work to get the stain off.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,550 Likes: 6
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,550 Likes: 6 |
Hi Dave- The crossguard looks great now. What did you use to get that stain off?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 103
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 103 |
Yes, what did you use to clean that god?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Simichrome and patience Dave
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102 |
Hi, here's the only numbered example I have. Ross Kelbaugh did some preliminary research and found the owner as being an enlisted member of the LAH in the in the 30s, then moving on to Totenkopf in the 40s. Someday I will get his entire file, but for now, this is ok.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102 |
if anyone wants to rip this dagger, i would be happy to hear about it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102 |
I just thought the sudden silence was deafening. I really want to follow this thread, but wasn't sure if
I only wsnt to see more of this thread, and i'd had to think i stumped it with a really badly stamped example.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
I am not sure what you were expecting for an answer. I see no problems.
One thing that is apparent is that stamping numbers onto crossguards was much harder than the stampers anticipated. Many of the guards show repeated strikes.
Dave
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102 |
yes, i agree. they are nasty stamps. im just bumbed that every time i post something, anything, it gets roundly ignored. dave, this rant does not include you. you have always been cordial and curious. i spend a lot of money on books, as well as items. i try to do my homework, but im a novice, and always will be, i hope. but who do you guys think that you will be selling your collections to? some guy on ebay? my point is, be patient and tolerant of us younger, dumber enthusiasts.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102 |
and dont spare the punches!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
I like those stampings as well. Typical period Numbers...anywhere from 2 to 4mm. Nice!
John
John Merling [email protected]MAX Life member OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS) OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc) NRA Life member
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102
|
OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,101 Likes: 102 |
Here is another 3 times stamped that I own. Twice on the lower crossguard - both buggered up - and once on the scabbard thoat.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2 |
Here's the only numbered one I have.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380 |
How can I se if it is not postwar numbered? It is easy to do to upgrade the value of a dagger
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380 |
Is it dificult for the experts to give me some tips about this matter?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 102 |
I apologize to all if I seemed to rant earlier.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
Hi All: Though I am usually most partial to SS daggers numbered to those not in the Dienstalterslistes , I couldn't pass up on this Ehrendolch when it was recently offered by JR. It is a full ground B�ker that belonged to Obersturmf�hrer Richard Heib. The condition along with the amount of information, including photos in uniform, available on Heib made it particularly attractive. I also like those where the SS Mann saw action and was more than a desk jockey. Here are the highlights of his service: 1 June 1918- 1 November 1918: Served on the Western Front as a Kanonier in the Bayerische Fuss Artillerie Regiment Metz 1 November 1919- 1 March 1920: Reichswehr; 11. Dragoner Regiment Darmstadt October 1931-May 1932: SA 6 June 1932-1937: 10. SS-Standarte September 1937-1 March l942: F�hrer des SS-Sturmes 5/ 85. SS-Standarte *1939-1941: Served in the Wehrmacht or the Waffen-SS on both the Western and Eastern Fronts where he was wounded 1 March 1942- April 1943: 125. SS-Standarte 1 March 1942: Adjutant in the Hauptamt 13 July 1942: F�hrer of I. Sturmbann/ 125. SS-Standarte 20 April 1943- : Waffen-SS Enjoy! Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
Here is one of Heib's photos which was attached to his NSDAP membership filecard. He qualified to receive this SS Ehrendolch since he was a continuous member of the SA from before 31 December 1931 until he joined the SS in June 1932. Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
One of the interesting aspects of the dagger is the evidence that the scabbard once had an applied center mount. Tom W. points out that some SS men modified their Model 1933 daggers to imitate the 1936 Model style due to a shortage of the new chained scabbards. Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
And for those "experts" who say they didn't do it, I found this image last week in my research. This SS-Hauptscharf�hrer modified his dagger with a center mount so it hung from what appears to be at least one black leather strap with a rivet fastener. This is the first photo I have come across that documents this type of modification. Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
Tough to get a good pic of a close-up here when working with JPEG's, but here is it. Enjoy! Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,245 |
WOW Ross. "GOLD" information. Well done again
|
|
|
Forums42
Topics31,673
Posts329,365
Members7,557
|
Most Online5,900 Dec 19th, 2019
|
|
11 members (Cameron, The_Collector, Mikee, Evgeniy, Stephen, Gaspare, Stirnpanzer, Documentalist, Stud, AntonGrabbe, den70),
287
guests, and
225
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|