UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Degen Maker

I am buying a SS Degen with "Herm. Rath Solingen" stamped on the reverse of the blade. Was Rath a common maker?

I believe Rath was a distributer rather than a manufacturer of degens. I've come accross a couple armys with his stamp as well.

Du you mean a leader degen or a subordinate degen ?

Sorry, I mean a fuhrer degen... with the runes set into the grip, not the pommel.
Thank you
Du

Here are two photos.

No. 2

Never heard from a Leader degen by Rath.Only seen on Police degens .Wittmann wrotes they also on subordinate SS degens and SS Leader canditates.Can we see a close up from the SS Button and the tang nut and also inside the pommel .

Yes,me too,please.Especially inside pommel.
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Sorry gents,

It hasnt been delivered yet. But its on the way. Should have it by next week. Here is another photo of the pommel/knucklebow.

Is it possible that Rath as a distributor stamped the blade?

Thanks for all the info.

Cheers
Du

I've only seen the stamping on police degens. Never SS. But my experience with SS degens is exceptionally limited. Sound like closer examination is in order.

I would really take care, as this maker is well known for Police Degen. Also to judge a SS Degen via pictures is not easy as there are also many importend details where you have to look in for.

I saw this sword on Germanmilitariacollectibles last week. looks to me like it is a mocked up police sword. Rath never made or distributed SS officer degans. it has late war plated fittings, which were only being done at the Dachau works, and this aint a Dachau sword! plus, it is also lacking the drilled quillion which all SS officers degans had done, even police officer degans had this feature, subordinate ranks didnt. What is the lower fitting like on the scabbard? held in by screws or a push fit? tread carefully, if i was you see if you can get your money back.

Have to agree there Pete.I dont like what I see either.Messed with Police.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for your input and time.

This is the same degen from germanmilitariacollectibes.com The seller has given a money back guarntee and we have been in phone contact. If its not real, he's promised a full refund.

This is my first degen of any kind. Forgive my ignorance however I dont understand a few comments:
- "Dachau swords were plated but this isnt a Dachau". ~ Did other makers plate swords and this is one of those? How can we tell it wasnt produced by Dachau?

- "...lacking the drilled quillion" ~ Would that actually be a drilled hole through the quillion?

I was told one of the 'giveaways' on a mocked up Police degen was the wire grip. Supposedly SS degens had silver wrapped handles, while Police degens had polished aluminum or plated copper. Is this true?

I will check the lower fitting when it arrives. Any other things that I can look for?

Again, thanks a lot for taking the time to post.

SF
Du

The SS medaillon looks as a typical fake inlet.Wrong "colour" and flat runics.

Gentlemen,
Please check out this link Witttman SS Degen

The quillion is exactly the same as the one Im buying...

Someone please give me some insight as Im starting to get that sinking feeling.

i agree with you aswell tobau, the runes look wrong too. As far as i am aware Hessian_Adler Officers (SS & Police) have always got the drilled quillion and nco's and other subordinates have it undecorated, thats how all of mine are.... Its not drilled right thru hessian, just a few millimeters as a decoration to what is normally a pretty dull looking quillion. Am i wrong guys? if i am someone please tell me as i have always gone by this rule. and i am pretty sure too that only police officer degans are the only ones to have alum grip wire.

I do love this forum ,a guy can learn something new every day !
Gary

Thanks Tobau and Pete_88. I see what you mean about the quillion. But under that rule, is the one Thomas Wittmann have on his site (link above) also a likely fake? PLEASE- Im not casting stones or anything of the sort, simply trying to learn here. And I appreciate all the info. Again this is my FIRST SS/Police degen. OR whatever it is...

More original degens withOUT the drilled quillion:

Police Officer Degen

Another... Police Officer Degen

And finally, from the same site, one that DOES have the drilled quillion:

Drilled Police Officer Degen

Now, two of the ones in this post and the third example I posted first are without drilled quillions. Only one has this feature. Now, Im very confused.... can someone else weigh in here with some definative proof?

I should have the sword this week and like I stated the seller is first rate and has assured me that I can get a full refund if its not 100% legit. So, Im not worried about money at this point, I would just like to know one way or the other.

Here is another from a different site:

Collector2Collector Police Degen

Im starting to think one of two things... either there are a lot of fakes out there being passed off as originals OR not every Police/SS degen had drilled quillions...

Guess I wont know more until I actually get it take it apart and photgraph it.

I dont live far from Thomas Johnson, I'll take it to him for an appriasial I guess.

When you get the sword,unscrew the pommel cap
and show us what you see inside without touching anything.
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Ok Seiler, can do.
Does the pommel cap just "screw off" or are there any special tools/tips needed?
Thanks

In theory,it should screw out relatively easily with a little effort.especially if its been"played" with.If it does not move then do not use any grips that may for instance damage it.Maybe a little WD 40!See what happens.
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

It'll be interesting to see how the grip rune button is attached to the grip as well as the grip wire configuration. I'd like to see what the final concensus on this one is. The grip doesn't have the tell tale signs of a converted police grip. Perhaps a SS grip assembly was slapped onto a police officer degen?

I would be very cautious of this degen. If the hilt is good I believe the blade has most likey has been replaced.

Degen arrived today. A couple of observations... there are NO 'kultur' marks (SS) on either the kuncklebow or scabbard throat. The drag doesnt appear to have holes that accomodate screws, it appears to slip on but is very tight in place.

Photos tell the rest... but what do they say?
Thanks

Photo 2 of 3

3 of 3.... Opinions

Please take close up straight on pics of the
runes button area.Looks like it is put together.
The drag is normal pressed into place,and looks OK.
The SS Fuhrer degen cap screws into a step fitting.The blade is held in place by a screwed on lock nut.The nut,if it has not been played with will have a metal cap/cover.Your pics show a typical Police swrd assy.Cap screw directly on to the tang.Not an SS Fuhrer Degen.If it was sold as such send it back.Not for me.
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

What's the verdict on this one? Police degen blade, and pommel cap, coupled with SS grip assembly? The grip doesn't look like the police grip eagle was removed and a runes button inserted in it's place. Definitely one that doesn't conform to any known examples i'm aware of.

Gents,
Thanks for weighing in. I've contacted the seller who is happy to take it back but thinks Im crazy because he swears its original. He gave the me the providence on it, but before I even go town that road, I am going to provide a few more pics.

This isnt because I want it to be original, but I do want to know DEFINATIVELY before I ship it back. If it's real, I want to hang onto it. If its an assy. of parts, it needs to go back. That's all Im trying to determine.

Does the lack of SS marks mean anything? Could it be that its a very early piece?

I've been surfing around the net for days now and have encountered every combo of drilled quillion/non-drilled quillion, screwed in drag and slip on. To tell the truth, I think I've seen more combos that cookie cutters... my head hurts!!!

Thanks!

Photos 1 of 3

2 of 3, showing close up of RUNES as requested by Seiler....

3 of 3 showing throat and knucklebow fitting. Again, appreciate ANY thoughts on this degen

Hessian_Adler,

The sword that you are presenting and inquiring about is an absolute abortion and made up from a common police sword. The handle runes are also an amateurish and atrocious attempt to make the originally police handle into an SS officer's handle which has the runes button seemingly glued in and puttied around the resulting edge gaps. The old stories and supposed provenance are all lies, fairy tales and wishful thinking. As the other members have recommended, return the sword and spend your funds on an original. I'm attaching a composite or montage of an officer's sword but I'm not sure how it will reproduce here. If my visual offering doesn't reproduce sufficiently, I will attempt another method to illustrate an original SS officer sword's individual components.

Honestly and absolutely for sure, the sword that you are presenting is JUNK!

Respectfully,

John Pepera

SS Officer Swords.

As my first intention : this sword is far,far from an original SS Leader Degen.

John P. : great collection.

John said it the way it should have been said instead of being polite.
But thats it...Rubbish,,save your money.You will get another chance.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

John P and all; thank you for your time and knowledge. I've never held, seen or touched a police or SS degen until this 'example'. This has been a real lesson. John P, being a Marine, I can esp appreciate your candor and frankness! Thanks!

Sword is going back today.

Semper Fi
Du