I went to the Allentown, PA show this weekend. One of the first tables I stopped at had a "mint" M40 SD Heer. It was one of those newer fakes that have been making the rounds. Even with poor lighting this thing was just bad. I buzzed the show, and went by the same table on the way out.....yep, here is some poor guy pulling out the hundred dollar bills with this helmet in front of him.
What do you do? I felt terrible. I hated to see a fellow collector get hammered, but I did not want to start a firestorm. The dealer might have gone nuts on me. The buyer might have freaked on me for challenging his skills. I chose to do nothing. Was I wrong?...Tom.
I would say yes, even you can follow the buyer and tell him what is going on a little bid by side.
Tom; You did the proper thing by keeping quiet. If the person asked for your advise then you can give it, butting in on a deal and offering advise is solid bad manners. Some day that dealer might have you special item and then you are out of luck. Just my fellings on this matter. Jerry
Many years ago at a MAX Show, I saw a dealer sell a repro Third Reich stein (being sold as an original). Worst yet, a young girl bought it for a Xmas gift for her boyfriend. I've know this dealer for a very long time so I kept quiet and said nothing. This happened about ten years ago and I still occasionally think about it. It's a tough call. If you help a stranger you make an enemy of the dealer. I'll be watching this to see what other members think.
I agree with Jerry. I've never been in a situation like that, but there's a good chance if you spoke up you'd end up the bad guy in both parties view.
Of course the benifit of the altercation would be to scratch that particular dealer from your list of potential shopping addresses
this happens at the MAX,SOS,and the local shows...Most of the time I keep quiet thinking the buyer should know what he's buying..
Sometimes if I'm standing right there next to the guy I'll ask,"Are you buying this as an original or a reproduction?" OR "Your pretty good with these huh?,how is this an original?" Hopeing some kind of statement will snap him into reality mode....,G.
I would at least attempt to stop any poor soul from spending their hard earned on a fake regardless of who was selling it and would likewise welcome a reciprocal comment should the roles be reversed
I was recently standing near one of these purchases, and the guy asked my opinion, and I told him that I didn't like it at all, and proceded to explain why. To which of course the backwater dealer prompty told me that I didn't know what the %$# I was looking at and went on to try & salvage the sale.
If asked I'll offer, but otherwise I'll just stay out of it.
The last time I fould myself in that situation was a show here. I was examining a chained NSKK with a fellow collector and quietly dicussing some issues with it with him. The dealer really became unglued grabbed it back and snarled that neither of us knew &%*# about it.
In general I feel it's better to keep your opinions to yourself unless asked by a fellow collector. In that case you are probably better off walking away from the dealers table to have your discussion.
Jim
I tend to get very moralistic about such things and think... What if it were me buying the fake. Having said this we should definately help our friends but are we social crusaders who have made it our life work and ambition to fight unjustice. Do we seek out used car lots to offer assistance. Many of us have also been burnt when purchasing used cars at some point in our lives. A personal judgement call here. However, upsetting and getting blacklisted by a dealer should NEVER be the mitigating and/or deciding factor. Screw them. Any decent dealer worth patronizing will stand by their wares and will ask you for information when you challenge their item(s). We have discussed dealers previously. cheers, Ryan
I agree that if the seller is a crook or not knowledgeable (fat chance!), something should be done. I let one of those transactions go by several years ago and still think about it. You should expect a crooked seller to overact and be defensive. He is just showing his true colors. As I get older, I am less reluctant to "butt in" and don't care if the seller gets mad. He's not half as mad as I am and as the buyer will be when the truth is known. Probably, the best way to handle it is to politely get involved (butt in) in the transaction and try to get the buyer to one side before the sale is completed. You may also make a comment that you have one of those at home just like that that's a reproduction. He may ignore you and even resent your interference, but that's his call to make. If he buys anyway, at least you know you tried.
I will ask to hold the item, check it out for a few seconds and then shake my head hand it back to the buyer and walk away. Often, the buyer will come after me and ask me why I shook my head. Works most of the time and by that time, I am far enough from the dealer to be able to talk to the buyer without being interrupted.
Follow the purchaser until out of sight of the seller and inform him of his bogus purchase while he still has time to return it.
I agree with Stephan. At least do something other than continually thinking about the event years later. I, as a buyer would much appreciate at least some notice before leaving the show, so some action can be taken. Then the dealer would be none the wiser as to who informed his victim.
You could if in doubt as a buyer ask a dealer to look at something for you.I did this at a N.J.show some yrs.ago.It was a Submarine badge.The other dealer told me to save my money.I did,it was on his table at the next show.Original seller told me he was over to the table to buy it right after I left.
Does the term NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS mean anything to you?Its not your call.Heres one, You are going to buy a helmet from a dealer that does not realize what he has and somebody butts in and tells him he is making a mistake.Gee thanks.
I had a table at the local show a while back and a fellow helmet collector asked me to look at a Camo helmet he had put a down payment on minutes before. He came back with the helmet and I gave him my opinion, not good. What I did not realise was the dealer in question was watching which table the collector took the helmet to. The helmet was returned to the dealer, who proceeded to bad mouth me the rest of the show. So much for giving my opinion.
Thanks, Paul
If I was sure it was a fake, I would tell the buyer plain and simple.
I hate a crook, and crooks are making this hobby very hard on the uninformed.
Because a guy does not know how to spot a fake does not make him deserve to learn the hard way, even if that's how you or I learned.
The dishonest sellers of this merchandise should be exposed at any and every opportunity.
I had 2 dealers gang up on me at a gun show and work me into buying an SS dagger from an individual walking the show. Seems one of them sold it to him earlier on and he was unhappy.
After the info I got from this site after posting pictures, and asking questions, I took it back during the next show by the same promoter, and guess what? The original dealer bought it back. Of course, I am a regular at these shows, and it was in the best interest of everyone.
In fact, that dagger was the subject of my first post here ever.
Anyway, that's just what I think about it, but then I have never been afraid of confrontation when it comes to something like this.
....tj
Switch places with guy that is about to buy the fake.
If you were about to make a bad purchase, would you want someone's help?
How many of you have contacted prospective buyers on an EBAY purchase being sold as original. I know I have......no different in my opinion, whether it be in cyber world or stood at the dealers table. This is peoples hard earned cash, and even if the prospective buyer had not done his homework, in 95% of the cases the dealer WILL have. Theft is theft and a dealer turning a blind eye and pleading ignorance is no excuse.
I might be more diplomatic than to point it out in front of the dealer but I would like to think I would make the effort to have a quiet word with the sucker
.
Thats the spirit of the forum.
I know I would.
Paul
Unless it is a friend I do not volunteer an opinion. If asked however, I say exactly what I think and don't care who is listening or who owns the item. I don't mind the excitement and people are now pretty used to me speaking my mind. I found years ago when I said nothing, some took that as me liking the item then went around saying I said the fake was good. That was worse.
I do not make many shows although I was at the last Max. By the way, Ken N. commented on how I had the only original SS helmet he had seen at that point in time at the show. Anyway, someone was interested but did not like the price. I was more than happy to talk to him knowing he would not buy my helmet. I also told him I would be happy to help him in any way possible. He found some nice fake SS helmets, which, I informed him, were fake. To make a long story short he ended up getting mad at me because I told him everything he looked at was fake. I do not need help selling my helmets and know someone else will buy it if he did not; I had no reason to lie. Last I saw he believed another dealer trying to sell his 1500-dollar SS helmet and �I think� he bought it. I have seen this many times in the past as well. If asked, I will give my opinion. If not I will not say a word because many times the person will just get mad at me or the person trying to help.
Same thing happen at a militaria auction I was at recently, I watched a fake RK with oak leaves sell for 7500 dollars!
Paul, drop me an email when you get a chance.
This has been my experience at least,
Bob
You did right...leave the fool and his money to be parted.You cant and should not police the other collectors...Just be sure NOT to buy anything from the seller or buyer as Neither know whats up.You run the risk of the Seller getting ****ed enough to throw a Punch and you also run the risk of the Buyer thinking your blowing smoke and trying to buy the item for your self.You did the right thing in my opinion.
The people who organise and run these fairs should kick the fake peddlers out ,unless its advertised as a "Genuine and Fake militaria fair".Rob.
Rob,
We have discussed the issue "The people who organise and run these fairs should kick the fake peddlers out, unless its advertised as a "Genuine and Fake militaria fair". " several times in the past, but it always bogs down on the questions:
Who is smart enought or has enough time to review ALL of the table before a fair opens ?
Would dealers set up a day or two early for the inspection, agreeing to pay extra as the hall must be rented for those extra days ?
Most dealers bring extra stock to replentish their table when stuff sells. Would the "expert" go through evryone's boxes / vans / trailers ?
***********************
As for myself, I gladly answer questions at shows if I feel I know something about the item*. So far it has been items brought over to me, not when standing next to someone at a table when a deal was in progress.
I suspect I would only interfere if the buyer was a good friend, and then I would say something like "Joe, lets talk for a minute".
Dave
* I also answer questions posed to me by email as many of you know.
Believe it or not I have also found many guys who do this for a living only have an elementary education in their wares. Some of these guys, one in particular, come to mind are actually wonderful people. Militaria was their hobby and for some reason had to make it their livelihood. They have fun but buy and sell what looks good to them. With the forums these days it is easy to get expert opinions and make comparisons between fake and original. We are lucky to have such an incredible learning tool these days!
Best Wishes,
Bob
Vetting a show impossible?
I disagree as this is routinely done at prestegious antique shows. I have been told that it was only a lenghtly process the first time and once dealers understand the vetting is serious less questionable merchandise is brought to subsequent shows.
I don't think that a completely vetted show would be possible at the MAX or SOS. Too many dealers derive part of their income from either admittingly or surreptiously selling repos. If these shows were rigoriously vetted you'd have far fewer dealers and a lot less merchandise both good and bad available.
I would like to see the following:
A segregated dealer area where all items have been vetted. Collectors would be able to buy items from those dealers with complete confidence. The rest of the show would remain unvetted and Caviet Emptor would prevail.
If this was coupled with current rules that an item sold by anyone as original must be guaranteed as such for the duration of the show it would go a long way to eliminate unethical practices.
Jim
Jim,
Last time you posted this it was in reference to an antique furniture show which has relatively few items.
Trying to get several thousand items of greatly varying militaria vetted - say the top 15 dealers or so - is impossible:
Again, WHO is going to vet them ?
Who chooses the dealers to be vetted if all agree ?
It's a good idea but imractical in my opinion. I suggest you put the idea to the test at one of your local guns shows ans let us know how it works.
Dave
The last time I brought a fake item to someone's attention was at a local gun show. Actually, I mentioned my concerns to the dealer and was rewarded with a tongue lashing regarding my knowledge (Were you there in 1942 when this was made?), my legitimacy of birth, and my motive. The guy put the helmet under the table, but it was back out an hour later.
Dave:
The New York Antiques Show to cite one that is vetted is comprehensive and contains untold thousands of antiques of all sorts not just furniture. If I gave you that impression its just furniture it's the wrong one. BTW: Among the hardest items to vet at an antiques show is furniture because items are usually composed of multiple pieces any and/or all of which could be replacements.
Yet it is done. The point being if dealers know this will be done they are far less inclined to display questionable items.
Would vetting be done at local militaria shows? That's about as likely as vetting a local antiques show. Anyone attending one of these knows items are sold as is where is. Vetting would only be practical as a large international show such as the MAX and would IMO be a positive step to restore some of the lost luster.
Criticism of the merchandise at even these shows is incessant and pretty universal. Unless the promotors do something I question their long term survival.
To answer your questions: Who would do it? I don't think it would be all that difficult to put together a vetting comittee of experienced collectors. What dealers? This would be entirely voluntary on the dealers part but a requirement to exhibit in the vetted area.
It would be interesting to hear what some of the dealers thoughts are on this.
Jim
Well, anger is sometimes the reward for doing the right thing, but it is a small price to pay.
As I stated earlier, the fakers and the crooks are making this hobby hard on the more novice of us, myself included.
Simply because a guy trying to get into this hobby and does not have a lot of experience does not mean he deserves to lose his money (ie; leave the fool and his money to be parted).Just because a guy doesn't know how to spot a fake does not make him a fool. He may simply be believing what appears to be a respected seller in an auditorium full of what should only be respected sellers.
That is not in the spirit is comradeship that we, as fellow collectors should have towards one another.
I realize it is a bit different for a dealer selling the same items to proclaim another dealer's item to be fake, but as a walker of the show, I see no problem with helping out a prospective buyer from becoming a sucker, and even pointing him/her in the right table or tables where genuine articles are located.
Once again, if I was sure it was a fake, I would tell them. If they don't listen, then, well, I did my part.
....tj
quote:
Originally posted by jim m:
Dave:
The New York Antiques Show to cite one that is vetted is comprehensive and contains untold thousands of antiques of all sorts not just furniture. If I gave you that impression its just furniture it's the wrong one. BTW: Among the hardest items to vet at an antiques show is furniture because items are usually composed of multiple pieces any and/or all of which could be replacements.
Yet it is done. The point being if dealers know this will be done they are far less inclined to display questionable items.
Would vetting be done at local militaria shows? That's about as likely as vetting a local antiques show. Anyone attending one of these knows items are sold as is where is. Vetting would only be practical as a large international show such as the MAX and would IMO be a positive step to restore some of the lost luster.
Criticism of the merchandise at even these shows is incessant and pretty universal. Unless the promotors do something I question their long term survival.
To answer your questions: Who would do it? I don't think it would be all that difficult to put together a vetting comittee of experienced collectors. What dealers? This would be entirely voluntary on the dealers part but a requirement to exhibit in the vetted area.
It would be interesting to hear what some of the dealers thoughts are on this.
Jim
Actually items are vetted at shows its just most beginers don't know who to carry it to at the show. Even then (as in online forums) many would just refuse to listen.
If all the fake items were removed at the shows the Max or SOS for example would be about 1/4 their current size. Then the casual collector, history buff or your average Sat. and Sun. walk-in outside a 150 miles wouldn't bother.
Jim,
I agree with what you have said! Without mentioning names, if one of these premier military shows were �vetted�, what percentage of the material would need to be removed? 40%? I was really amazed how much fake material was displayed as original at the last several premier shows I attended! So, sad that we can�t just enjoy the history these days!
Bob
Bob:
If what I suggested above was done and a vetted area set up for those dealers wishing to participate very little IMO would have to be removed. The MAX and SOS would probably remain the same size the difference being there would now be a vetted area and an area for all other dealers.
IMO Most of the seasoned collectors would continue to readily buy from dealers in the unvetted area trusting their own judgement.
Besides It's my understanding at least at the MAX that all dealers must guarantee their merchandise at least for the duration of the show.
Jim
I never make comments to either dealers or other customers. The dealer KNOWS what he is selling is fake, so raising the issue w/ him is wasted breath. Buyers A) should know better and B) are just as likely to also give you a piece of theirmind for butting in.