This 'interesting' piece has just popped up on militaria321.
http://www.militaria321.com/auktionsdetails.cfm?auctionID=5333962I havent seen a damast piece before (outside of Russ's) and there appears no evidence of tampering with the grip. I amusing the piece is either a really good fake (in the sense of being put together) but it poses a question are HJ's in etched or real Damascus a possiblity?
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I would say it is bogus.Ask yourself why is the dagger hilt,scabbard ,ect all beat up but the blade is mint?
Looks like etched "artificial" damascus (especially on photo # 3).
I agree that its no good, but did/could damascus or artificial HJ's (not leader's) exist?
It is that "rose damascus"which is doing the rounds in the UK as well at the moment.I saw an Austrian guy hawking an SA with the same type blade at a show recently.As already mentioned the state of the handle is a giveaway.
Ivan.
Sturm,
I guess the question is why ? If the HJ dagger was for the average boy, why would it exist ?
It would be cost prohibitive to own and would it even be permitted as it is not keeping in step with the Nazi uniformity theme...
I know of one real Damascus HJ knife so they did exist. Although carried by smaller boys, you see some fairly mature looking young men inthe old pictures wearing them.
Dave
Dave,
Again why ? Is it for presentation ?
I am not saying they don't exist,
what was the purpose ?
Who knows ?
It could have been rich parents. You see Army, Luft, and Navy daggers with Damascus steel blades without any dedication on the blade or elsewhere, so why not HJ ?
Perhaps it was a prize for one of the many athletic contests.
Dave
And, they were not all little boys either
Another.
By the way, I am not implying that I think the one above is real or fake. Not my area of expertise.
Dave
The �story� is almost as creative as some others I�ve seen in recent times. But the more believable evidence I think is in the blade itself.
Beside some of the other factors mentioned: Is that laser etching or an overlay running from left to right as part of the �inscription�? Multiple tracks from top to bottom - parallel to the red line??? FP
Inverted.
I have seen (real damascus) post war blades (large rose pattern). Say my second at a show not long ago....
The Dagger above is for sure a etched only pattern..
I agree Dave they werent all just for boys and when you consider that extra costs options were avliable on other daggers i dont think its out of the real of impossiblity for a HJ to have received one.
FP i also had a look at those lines and think they very well may be laser considering the crispness of the etch (to other repo's that is). RussN if memory serves me you have a Damascus HJ any chance of pics at all or entry into the legitimacy of Damascus blades on HJ's?
Interesting to find this post.
I have had the opportunity to inspect this HJ knife (the exact one posted here) last weekend.
My knowledge of damast blades is limited, but I can conclude this:
- This is a real damast blade, not an artificial one.
- Motto and makersmark are not etched into the blade but are raised out. They are crisp (not like the picture above of the makersmark shows)
- The blade is not mint, it is darker close to the guard and it shows runner marks. The lines indicated by Fred are the traces left by the runner.
Concerning the rest of the HJ-knife (that area I do know wel
): it is a classic early HJ with smaller diamond, steel based hilt, correct grip rivets...etc. No indications that the blade has been replaced.
Except for the surface rust on the hilt and scabbard, the overall condition was excellent. I have seen knifes in much worst external condition that held an mint blade, because it had been protected agains humidity in the scabbard during decades.
So this knife is quite intersting in my opinion... again I am not a damast specialist!
I will ask for some pictures of the blade and post them here if authorised.
Has anyone seen other real damast blades on HJ knifes during the past years?
Best greetings,
Herman
Hi Herman
Yes this is interesting post.
Bud anyway i dont see reason why?
Why to make damast blade for HJ.
Hello Stingray,
I think that Dave has answered that question pretty much: the leaders of this million members youth movement were no small boys.
Until 1938 they also could not distinguisch theirselves with a leader's dagger because this type of dagger did not exist yet. So it seems logical that they did that via a special ordering like a damast blade, the advantage was that it could not be seen on the outside uniform (there were strict relulations of equality).
Don't forget that among the leaders of the HJ movement there were many (rich) aristocrats. The supreme leader of the Hitler Youth, Baldur von Schirach, was a nobelman himself!
Best greetings,
Herman
hello for me this damast blade is a post war,i can say ,this is not the first hj that this man sell on mil 321,for in end a little price!!
i hve see one of this blade NO PROBLEM 100% FAKE,but always on a good dagger!
best regards from france
patrick
Patrick.
Would be interesting if you can post any lincks or pictures of other damast HJ-knifes that are (or have been) sold or which are in collections.
I have searched the net desperately looking for other ones without any result...
The only damast HJ's that I have found so far are the Dan Krebs knife, posted here 3 years ago and this WKC one, posted 1,5 years ago... That is not much and that is why they start to interest me...
"for in the end a little price...", how much is that?
The knife that is posted here (and that I have been inspecting in hand) would be quite costly to reproduce, I can assure you!
Best greetings,
Herman
I have seen these daggers before on a dealer website, and at the Max show.... All were postwar. When I personally looked at the krebs at the max it was confirmed... Sorry Herman
These are postwar blades..
One question... How do you know it is damascus???? As the Imperial Navy was bad so is this HJ blade..Don't buy a story... Just my opinion...
Hey Damast,
I'll tell you why I believe this is real damast if you tell me more about your findings (the facts) about the Dan Krebs HJ at the MAX. OK?
I also want to ask all the other posters here to post and present facts, arguments and pictures. So that we can have a mature discussion, that is what a forum like this is all about: learn from each other!
Just posting opinions: "it is bad" or "it is good" is of very limited use and value for others...
Let me quickly tell you a story:
Not so long ago at a show in Europe, an unusual SA was offered for sale, nobody liked it, not even the peopole who were collecting for decades "it was bad: the grip was not correct", "it was no good: look at that eagle",...etc. I got pictures and information from the right people here on the forum and now I own an ultra rare christmas SA...
I could tell you more: how I bought mint HJ's because others thought they were fakes "looking too good, so new"...
So, try to keep an open mind here and post your facts, arguments, definitions...
If they are proven wrong? Who cares... as long as we are learning something!
Best greetings,
Herman
PS: same with the Imperial Navy, it was thanks to people here on the forum who presented me facts and arguments, that I realised that it was a reproduction, not by the "it is no good" opinions.
1st off I was the one who blew the whistle on the very bad Imperial navy fake....As far as the HJ dagger I'am having a mature discussion on it. As far as pictures.... One Krebs is in the Big dealers Gallery under damascus... It is (my opinion) that this is also postwar. (don't buy the story) I do not mean to have you get upset, I hope someone else will put in there 2 cents..
No offence taken here, Damast.
Just hoping to get more valuable content on the subject.
Best greetings,
Herman
hello herman
i cannot do a good discussion because my english is bad!but i can say the same dealer sell 1or 2 same hj damast with WKC for a little sum 600� ,i sell also other daggers with this same damast and the price are not big,for me this is very doubtful !i have never see in 30 years an hj with an original damast blade �and you my friends collector??
BEST REGARDS
patrick
I have compared the damast HJ knife currently for sale (thank you for the lead, Damast!) with the one posted here 3 years ago. It is the exact same piece!
So that still leaves me with only 2 damast HJ pieces found: 1 WKC and 1 Dan Krebs...
I am looking for more. Who else has pictures to show or knows where one is offered for sale?
Best greetings,
Herman
Here's one that I have just found.
.jpg "2752(3).jpg")
Thanks for posting here, Pat!
Yes, that is the same Krebs we know about.
Best greetings,
Herman
I had this HJ Damascus in my hands at the Max show about 3 years ago but I cannot really say anything about it, as I have no expertise on these.
It sure seems like real damascus to me but the question is, is it period or not ?
That same year at the Max, Reddick Enterprises were selling fabulous Luft and Army unmarked real damascus blades for only $ 100 USD.
These were made in Asia and when I wanted to buy one, the seller told me that they were all sold out..............to dealers.
What about the damast blade, Pat?
You own several 3R damascus blades, so you can compare.
Best greetings,
Herman
Herman,
All that I can tell you, is that none of my damascus blades have any similarities with the one posted here.
The damascus blades that I have were all made by Paul Dinger and I have the large and small rosebud patterns.
There were of course more than 1 Damascus craftman in Germany ( I think they were 5 or 6 ) and it could have been made by any of the other guys.............if done period.
That's really a hard call and it doesn't help either that we cannot find any period reference on the subject.
Pat:
You are very much aware of some of the period 3 Reich damascus Daggers swords I own and have owned. + the many Imperial damascus swords.I do not post pictures of them on the forum. I saw personally the krebs at the (last) MAX. I know that that blade was postwar in my opinion.. Paul Dinger, Carl(Karl) Wester , Paul Mueller , Were the most common. I have seen only a few (real) marked sword blades by Robert Deus..(Spelling??). (In the Solingen blade museum storage..)
A good book for a collector to buy is Damascus Steel By Manfred Sachse... It is always on e-bay... It does have a small section on fake damascus.. Regards: James
James,
I can only dream to be invited for dinner to your house and see your wonderful collection with my own eyes.
I'll bring the wine but it will have to be Bordeaux.
Sure does not look like TJ Swan..Or Boonesfarm.
I have been permitted to post some pictures of this knife.
Here they are, I hope that the damast specialist here can learn us something... Argumented opinions are much appreciated!
Still only 2 damascus HJ's found so far... Where are the others?
Best greetings,
Herman
Description: 1
2
Description: 2
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Description: 3
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Description: 4
This is only my opinion but I wouldn't feel confortable with this type of damascus blade.
Here's my reasons, there were many different damascus patterns during the Third Reich era and they were all different.
However, I've got two Damascus blades in my collection and I have seen many others in the last few years and the damascus lines were always very close to one another.
As you know, english isn't my mother tongue and it is sometimes difficult for me to explian what I mean.
Here's a picture of my Army small rosebud damascus blade made by Paul Dinger.
As you can see, the damascus lines are very close and there is little space in between.
The one from the HJ knife, the space between the lines are much too large and this is why I feel uneasy about it.
Other reasons being that we never see this type of damascus patterns on any daggers or reference books..............others than these two HJ's.
Once again, I'm no genius and I do make mistakes, so nothing I say has to be taken for cash.
That is a very interesting and argumented (and with a picture)opinion!
Thanks a lot, Pat!
Herman
Hello guy's,
Just a thought but could it be a artificial damast blade like we see on Luft and Army daggers i.e. period chemical etched ?
Is there any way to test if original, period etched or post war such as a rockwell test.
My 2 cents.
Eric
Hello.... So what about the example currently shown on Craigs gallery section....Personaly I don't like it, but is it genuine?
Without all around pics not a sure call but my opinion is acid etched and quite possibly post war.I have a couple of originals and this does NOT exhibit what I consider the usual surface characteristics of what I call the real thing.
Seiler (yank in uk)
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the additional comments and opinions.
It seems to me that the final judgement on this piece is not yet for today...
If this blade is made postwar and added to the original HJ knife, I still do not understand why no other blades have surfaced. I do not believe that a faker would just make a single piece.
Would appreciate a sign if anyone finds another damast blade on an HJ.
Best greetings,
Herman
quote:
If this blade is made postwar and added to the original HJ knife, I still do not understand why no other blades have surfaced. I do not believe that a faker would just make a single piece.
Excellent point Herman, why only make one?
To each his own!
Seiler (yank in uk)
why only make one ... someone is not dump.
Making too many of these would certainly look very suspicious.
However, only making a handful of HJ damascus would make it more "legit".
I would think the best strategy for fakers would be to make a bunch to reduce the costs and effort of making them, and then to release them onto unsuspecting collectors very slowly and in different markets.
John
Sorry guys, but this "only one or a few fakes" makes absolutely no sense to me:
- This knife recently changed hands for 800 EUR: I am 100% sure about the amound, I was there.
- An original HJ knife with small diamond of about 250-300 EUR would have been sacrifised in the proces
- This is at least a very complex etching: both sides and even the edges are treated.
- The raising of a perfect motto and the makersmark must have been done. I do not have a clue what process must be used for this, but it looks great...
- Than the blade must have been aged...
All this for 500 EUR minus the commission of the dealer?
If I was a faker I would use an original 70 EUR dress bayonet, copy an existing double etching, apply this simple proces. The makersmark is already in place and 100% original, not to worry about. I would sell this piece for 1500 EUR... Or maybe I would just try the simple Rohm inscription on an original SA...
As i said: to me this piece stays unjudged.
Best greetings,
Herman
This is only(MY) opinion on this WKC dagger pictured.. The blade is a etched Damascus and post war... And if in the collecting community this kind of material is accepted as original we have big problems.. This is (MY) opinion only.. As I like to say (It is very Black and White to me what this is..) Regards: James
James, I doubt very much that anyone will contredict you on this.
You are among the very few individual that knows what he is talking about when it comes to damascus. Very few of us have your knowledge on this and that pretty much ends it for me.
I just feel sorry for the person who has bought this HJ knife.
Concerning the value added on a fake dagger, I don't agree with what is being said.
There are many faked partial Rohm that sells for $ 2000 and in the process, the con artist does sacrifice a $ 1000 geniune SA blade for it.
Remember that fake damascus is very cheap.
Reddicks enterprises where selling fake Luft and Army damascus blade for only $ 100 USD .at the last Max show (2008)
Yes, you read it right, only $ 100 USD.
I would assume that a fake HJ damacus would also go for that kind of money which makes the switch of a blade profitable for the con artist and 500 euros is more than enought for a crook.
Are the blades from Reddick marked in any way to show they are fakes?
Regards
Russ
Russ, the damascus blades that were sold at the Max had no markings and guess what ? When I talked to the seller, he told me that all of his damascus blades had been bought by dealers.
Kind of make you wonder why ?
quote:
Originally posted by Pat:
Russ, the damascus blades that were sold at the Max had no markings and guess what ? When I talked to the seller, he told me that all of his damascus blades had been bought by dealers.
Kind of make you wonder why ?
Not Dealers? Is that what he said Pat?!
Probably because collectors will not buy the blade alone...but a dealer can Hilt it and then they will?! Ya think?!
I don't believe it! Most of those guys are
MAX certified! -serge-
I would like to see more pictures here, so that we can really learn something...
Who has anything to show, to compare with?
Who has an artificial damast period or postwar blade (any type of dagger) to show?
Pat,
As you know very well: a fake partial R�hm was an attempt to make a
fake full R�hm at + 5000 US$. The process of adding an inscription is a bid lighter than what has been done on this piece. And even: 1000 US$ is still 50% more than 500 EUR for what... maybe 10% of the work?
I would be interested to hear from one of the "Specialists" how these raised letters (the motto and the makersmark) are produced? Is it by simply protecting that surface agains the acid? If that is what is done: the person who made this surely knew what he was up to... Not at all like the bad quality etching that we see on early fake dress bayonets...
I read in Tom Wittman's Luft book that many artificial damast blades were made postwar, with inscriptions of war heroe names, dedications... etc. Can anyone show one of these?
But Tom Wittmann also stated in the same book that those blades did not bear the WKC logo, so...
If anyone has a piece like this HJ to offer at a similar price, please contact me (in private), I might be interested in buying it "for studying purposes" 
Best greetings,
Herman
I,m with you "Damast".
The skill of photoengraving and etching
a blade is relatively straight forward.Just a little time and at relatively low cost.A one off
is no big deal IMO.I have watched engravers in
Printing shops at work preparing copper plates
for print.Makes it look like a walk in the park.
Seiler (yank in UK)
Hello,(Again!) Can SOMEBODY answer my question? I wondered if any of you had an oppinion about the example currently displayed on Craigs gallery page. It seems no one wants to comment! I don't like it, but do any of you????
Read whole post
I saw a krebs at the MAX once it might be the same one pictured..
DAMAST:
I think that it was being shown around at the 2007 MAX, if memory serves me. I remember seeing it there.
John
H,J-H,Had not seen that one before.
Without flogging this to death,etched damascus,showing same/similar
surface charachteristics,as the other,maybe even the same source.Who knows!For those lacking in
the recognition of "The real thing"Google the word,log on to damascus.com (Sweden) and handle
some genuine forged blades trying to understand the metallurgy.OR,you may get burned!!
Thats me done with it.
I am still looking to buy a HJ knife like the one posted here (the WKC, not the Peter Dan Krebs), I did not find a single one so far...
If you know anyone who has one, please put me in contact!
Thanks and best greetings,
Herman
Hello,
I think you may be in for "The long haul"!
Quite possibly the work of an enterprising
"Producer"!!!! (two or three pieces to try his hand out??)
Cheers
Seiler (yank in UK)
I,m sure you will keep us ALL posted.
Hello Seiler,
You already made your point earlier, I believe, based on the pictures showed here.
I appreciate it, thank you!
But I have examined this HJ knife in person and I just would like to have one, if it can be found...
An expert has told me that this artificial damast etching is a complex, time consuming process (several templates are needed), especially to have the result of a (perfect) raised motto and the (perfect)makersmark.
Real (crude) damast blades without markings are much easier to produce, following the same expert. And that is why they are sold at very low cost.
I do not go for the "hand try out" theory on artificial damast.
Best greetings,
Herman
Hi! I don't know how relevant it can be, but have a look on new WKC made damast blades:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...86093573/m/185102741best regards
Nacho,
I was going to post that same link but you beat me to it, I would have liked to think that it was a one of a kind but starting to look like WKC had a trial run on these or tried their hand at it. On the WKC site you'll notice a few more pending knives are in the works, i wounder if the youth knife is one of them.
Herman,
Have you tried to contact WKC to see if they are currently offering or making these knife blades, if not they might be able to say for sure if it was in fact made by them and give you a good time period when it was made. WKC may even be able to send you some sort of documentation on it authenticity, this would be logical since they are still in business.
Hummm i wounder if they can etch "Herr Wien" on the blade.
Sincerely,
Eric Wien
I stand by my comments.
These blades ARE etched NOT forged
Damascus and in all probability
POST WAR.Prove me wrong and I will
surrender.
Seiler (yank in UK)
Hello Eric,
That is a good idea, I will try to get more information at WKC, but without owning a knife myself... I don't know if they will take the time for it.
I am still interested in buying a knife like this, let me know if you spot one... anywhere!
Best greetings,
Herman
This is on there web: WKC
Historical sword information and identification research:
Unfortunately, we are not in position to provide identification research.
Even if your sword has the WKC mark on the blade, we are unable to assist with identification and historical research. WKC has been in business since 1883, but, due to the intensive Allied bombing of Solingen during WWII and the looting that occurred in the late stages of the war and soon thereafter, there are no WKC records prior to WWII.
However, you will find below some advice to begin your research.
Most research into the history of a sword begins with trying to identify the sword maker. You may first consider that not all swords handcrafted in Germany, or in Solingen, Germany, were created by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Co. (WKC). This is sometimes not as easy as it should be. Sword producers place an identifying mark on the sword, commonly on the sword's ricasso (the ricasso is the unsharpened portion of the blade immediately above the guard).
All WKC swords are produce with the following mark on the blade.
If you want to learn more about your antique sword, this is what we recommend:
1. We have collected information from antique models that WKC has produced in the past. You may find one models similar to yours. Please note that we are not able to provide you more information than the description presented here. (Click here to have access to this page).
2. Run searches on several search engines to learn more about the sword company's history. For example, if you were researching a WKC sword, you might try the following searches :
1. weyersberg kirschbaum wkc sword
2. antique wkc sword
3. history of wkc swords
4. etc. etc.
You'll likely find other swords that are similar to yours listed on a variety of web sites and might be able to discern some of your sword's history and value by such searching.
2. Contact a Sword Collector's Organization that can help identify your piece, or search for an Antique Dealer that specializes in military pieces. On the other hand, be aware that we do not have any experience with Sword Clubs or Antique Dealers and have no idea of the honesty or forthrightness of any specific person. Antiques are a "buyer-beware" business and you need to be careful who you work with.
Hello collector friends,
I am bringing this topic back to the top, because 2 years have past now and...
- Not a single etched damast HJ has been presented to me, not even for opinions...
- Nor did I find any on a many fairs I attended to here in Belgium, Germany and France...
- Not any dealer had one to offer...
I am not surprised: I knew it would be touch to find one...
But I don't give up, let me know if you spot one!
Best greetings,
Herman
I'M going with original. 1) this & one cj krebs seen , no others. 2) quality over all looks corect. 3) even in 1945 those who were still making items post war, were smart enought to pick a comp. logo of some one long out of buisness ,so not to get sued. 4) original or artifical damas. not easy to work with. some companies get talked into. making a run of blades (by high end sellers),then after the whole process is done, They ussually refuse to make any more (pain in the butt for the money).
wkc still dose it for them selves but, see the prices !!!
Plus I remember hearing that a piece like this was awarded to someone for a big deed during the war, some one that did some thing directly for the benifit of the h.j. & got "this " as a gift from an h.j. leader (????????)
a "one off" fake dose NOT seem right. look at it this way, if it landed in the hands of one of our high end dealers here in the U.S. ,it would be "original" & priced to the point none of us could buy it. j.h
Jeff,
Your point of view is interesting and the arguments that you developed are quite convincing.
Thank you for sharing them here.
Best greetings,
Herman
well poop ! did we not have a thread here recently on h.j makers/ rarity ? I had wrote done the info. but, in my half-assed short hand. Dose any one want to start a thread on JUST maker marks on h.j. knives, with little info.(motto/ no motto, ect) ???? a running list of good photos of just the marks with little /NO comments from others( ie."nice knife , how much you pay ?....) just photos & little info. of it. any body here care ?? if so, can it be pinned in , so it won't go bye-bye????
my 3 are basic ,nothing special & currently buried in the piles of other military antiques in this house. jeff h.