Hi All,
I was looking for new additions to my collection today and came across a very nice looking Heer by Holler with a personalised crossguard monogram of the initials E.L. with floral scrolls on a well known UK dealers site but the price seemed a bit too good (for the UK anyway), so I had a look around the net for similar styles of engraving to see if the one I was looking at seemed period style but much to my surprise I found another Holler with the EXACT! same monogram to the crossguard on another well known U.S. dealers site.
The daggers themselves on inspection are obviously different daggers though both of the same maker and type apart from the scabbard bands and ferrules plus the grips are different shades of orange and the MM is further down the blade on the UK one, as the dagger in the U.S. is already sold I thought for a moment maybe it could just be the same one that has found it's way to the UK but as I said they are different.
So my question is were there standard patterns of monograms available during the period which could be why these two daggers have the same personalisation on different daggers ? however this seems unlikely to me as how many Officers would require the same initials and style etc. from the same maker, or could the crossguard from the U.S. dagger have ended up on a different dagger here in the UK and if so why would that happen? interestingly if you look closely at the crossguards they both have the same wear marks though the UK one is cleaner than the U.S. one. which has the dark patina but to me they look like one and the same??? This all seems a bit weird to me and would love to hear others opinions on this. The photos attached are taken from both dealers websites if this is not allowed then please delete but I think this should be looked at as something does not seem right here!
Many thanks, Andy.
First 2 x photo's are the already sold (patina) U.S. example and the second two photos are the for sale (clean) UK example:

The ONLY reasonable explanation (short of fraudulent circumstances) is that the same dude had two daggers.

Mmm! Hadn't thought of that but what about the wear marks to the left sides near the floral d?cor and the plating wear to the centres of the scrolls, they are the same? aren't they?

Can't tell,

We'll probably never know unless someone "confesses".

Maybe others will chime in but seems to be different imo. One difference and I see others. The scroll just above the line,bottom left isn't touching the line like the other. A well known artist from the period and before, his book was used often for this purpose. Many many styles to choose from. One could have it professionally done like yours or attempt it themselves. Thank you.

Perhaps a memorial piece for a fallen friend by a group as there may be several others as well and would seem logical.

Blimey! well spotted I hadn't seen the scroll touching the line as you have pointed out, I am going to study this very carefully now to try to spot the differences that you can see. Your point about the well known artist from the period was kind of what I was asking earlier that this could be two daggers belonging to different people but with the same initials using an available design/style. I always thought these monograms etc. were unique but you have shed a different light on it for me thank you. Who was the Artist you mentioned that could have done this work and would it be safe to say then that in your opinion these are indeed different crossguards as I am now becoming convinced they are. The reason for the scepticism is I am thinking of purchasing this dagger but was very surprised, baffled and confused to find an identical one so easily, just fluke I suppose. Anyway thanks for the information I have learnt something new again by posting on this forum.
Cheers, Andy.

Also just noticed that I posted the same photo twice so the bottom photo should have been this one of the dagger from the UK. One last question about the available UK dagger as shown in this photo is from what I can see the scabbard looks to be by Eickhorn with the later type scabbard bands oak leaf pattern and if I'm correct would it be right with a type 3 Holler dagger or is this scabbard incorrect? Please help!
Thanks, Andy.

Hello gents, you might not forget that the first shown crossguard is patinated and the second shown crosguard is cleaned/polished. So some marks might appear different although - imho - it is one and the same crossguard due to a lot of individual features I can see in both crossguards.
Signs of age/wear are like fingerprints...
It is sad that such a piece of history is destroyed forever due to monetary aspects.
Regards,

If wotan states it's one and the same. Then you can take that to the bank,

Thank you Wotan the areas you have circled are the exact wear marks that I could see on both crossguards and was trying to draw attention to in my 1st post just I don't have the software to mark the photos like you have and also I did point out that the presently for sale crossguard is cleaned but the wear seems the same. Funny about the small difference Mikee pointed out though because I can see it too but maybe that's down to lighting and camera angle ? Anyway think I will leave this one alone and go for something else. Thanks to you all for your input, great stuff!
Regards, Andy.

Smart choice. Anytime you have to go to that much trouble to justify it, then it is best to move on. You can always find another and maybe even better. Ron

Hello Mikee, thank you for your kind words, but although I try to do my best I am not infallible.
Regards,

Hey wotan, Hope all is well with you. You are to modest my friend, you are one of the very best on this forum.

I seen that dagger on a UK dealers website & thought about buying it, good job i did not, dodgey goings on with this heer dagger imo , what a shame !!!

Mac, That would be the same site I was looking at and instantly thinking of buying it the only reason I did a search on the engraved crossguard was because it seemed a little cheap for such an elaborate crossguard personalisation glad I did because I was tempted to snap it up the instant it came online. Anyway it has sold now and it was pure luck that I found the same one in the USA that had been sold while I was looking for similar examples/styles to compare, all the points that Wotan expertly illustrated are the exact same ones that I could see and led me to think these two are the same crossguard, but how? different daggers?? dodgey indeed !
Andy.

[quote=AndyBurton] but how? different daggers?? dodgey indeed !



Post war added personalised engraved crossguards by the same person maybe?, or the same dagger that has been taken apart then rebuilt as another dagger that is in better condition than it was origionally ?, note the makers logo is further down the blade on the UK dagger compared the the US dagger !

Andy did you manage to get a pic of the type of eagle that was on the UK DAGGER ?

Mac 66

Mac, No I didn't get a pic of the eagle but it was the Holler type 3 I clearly remember this because I already have a very nice Holler Heer with the same fittings and was thinking if I bought the personalised one would I sell the one I already have so as not to have two of the same type. The point is that this was not two different crossguards with the same personalisation but rather as Wotan pointed out in his earlier reply and I tried to describe in my original post the crossguard on the USA dagger is actually the same crossguard as the UK one, have a look at his reply he has ringed the areas of wear that are exactly the same like a fingerprint the only difference is it had been cleaned when it appeared on the UK dealers site and been put with a different dagger altogether but of the same maker and vintage etc. So a dagger sold in the USA had its crossguard removed then cleaned and put on another dagger presumably to make up two daggers? anyway all seems very naughty and odd.
Cheers, Andy.

Thanks Andy , I agree with you, Wotans assessment has nailed it , same crossguard but cleaned !


The things some guys get up to in dagger world is shocking mate, keep your eyes open !!!!



Cheers Mac 66

also the same maker but a different placement on the blade!

Maybe the same cross guard, but not the same blade, as Tex points out above.

Upgraded dagger?