I have here a 2nd luftwaffe dagger by "Asso" that i want to vet here.

This dagger belongs to Bob Rodgers. This is from Bob on the Provenance:

"Tom Johnson bought it from a very old time collector when he got the guys collection, Mike Hanson bought it and sold it too Denny, Denny sold it to Craig, and I bought it. (This took place over a) period ( 10 years )".

I would like comments on the dagger.

Here is the dagger.

TM

Blade 1

Reverse blade

Grip

pommel

Reverse crossguard. This is deep detail

Front crossguard

Grip parts and tang

worn scabbard bands

Another shot of the blade. I think I need better scans of the blade.

another of the blade.

Any other photos needed?

Dagger and scabbard

I have never seen anything like this... But, it looks gorgeous.

Can't find any ASSO etched examples in the Wittman Luft book.

Anyone have any ideas about this?

John

Jim:

You aren't getting a lot of responses to your questions, are you?

I wonder why?

John

The dagger itself seems to be original (what I can see from the pics). I am also not aware having seen an ASSO 2nd luft but the firm is listed in TTW�s book as a manufacturer and those small firms for sure do not come by very often.
The question is the etching and I am afraid that nobody can make a serious statement simply from pics and especially as they are not best quality, as it is a "non textbook" etching.
I am aware that there have been non textbook etchings during the period in various kinds. But unfortunately there is not much knowledge about them.
So concerning the etching I think somebody experienced can only give a statement after a close and very careful inspection in hands - if ever.
Perhaps a sharp and detailed closeup of the whole etching, both sides can led to a somehow general statement or opinion due to the definition of the letters, wording and so on.
Regards,

Wotan:

I have seen and actually have an ASSO maker marked Luft2 in my collection.

The dagger per se looks fine to me based on these pictures, but, as you have stated, this is an etch that doesn't seem to be pictured in the Wittman or Johnson books that I have.

It probably needs someone like Tom W or Tom J to hold in their hands to get a more definitive comment.

John

Thank you for the comments. I wanted to get the view of Woton and others before having people spend the money to have it vouched. This one is off to T. Whittman as he was not involved with this dagger previously.

Again, thank you

Jim:
I don't think there's any question that the dagger itself is fine. I would recommend some high resolution photos of the etch be sent to Frederick Stephens as well.
Jim

Jim,

I'd have to agree with Jim M., the dagger itself appears completely original but I know you know your stuff so the real question is the blade's etch.

I'm not alone in saying I've never seen anything like that type of blade etch but this is nothing dispositive, there's lots out there no one's seen previously. Just for my own edification, I'd love to see a higher resolution picture or two of the blade etch, if you're able to post them, thanks.

Yea, the whole dagger looks legit and the tang mark is a known producer pre-1945. The etch needs to be evaluated by an expert.

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
Jim:
I don't think there's any question that the dagger itself is fine. I would recommend some high resolution photos of the etch be sent to Frederick Stephens as well.
Jim

I concur with Jim.
Back in mid 60' to mid 1970's the "good" fake blades etches originated out of England. And there is probably nobody who has seen more of those variations than Frederick.
If you give him a ring he's out of the country for a bit now.

-Serge-

We appreciate all the comments. Here are a couple of scans. These show good detail although I had to make some serious adjustments to get it down to forum size. So, maybe this helps.

For what it is worth, this etch looks great to me. But, I am no expert, far from it.

I see it is a little distorted. This is about the best I can do.

Let us try another method.

Actually, this isn't a completely unknown type of etch. Just very rare to see. Look at the top of page 321 of Wittmann's Navy book. You'll see etch patterns offered by E. Pack from one of their sales ads. This pattern is one of them. They note their example as for "Finanzbeamte", with RFV etched on the blade surrounded by an oakleaf pattern very similar to the one posted here. The land customs fell under the RFV, so I assume the reference in the sales ad is for a land customs blade (i.e. same style blade as Army & Luft dagger blades). You can see from the template in the E. Pack ad that the etch is narrow, and meant to fit in the center panel of the blade. (Side note: how rare would an etched land customs dagger be!? I've only seen a picture of one, but it was a standard Alcoso etch.)

Some years ago Howard Crouse had an unmarked E. Pack Army dagger that had this exact etch (the unique fittings and grip features clearly identified it as E. Pack). He had it for several years at the shows, and for a reasonable price, so people were obviously unsure about it. It struck me as real, but it was awhile before I came across the info in Tom's book verifying that this etch did in fact exist. By the next time I saw Howard it had already been sold.

It's hard to make a judgement about this piece. For one, as others have noted, it would be good to hold it for a hands-on view. Also, I don't know if this pattern was reproduced after the war. The lack of them at shows would seem to indicate that if they were reproduced, there were very few made. That doesn't seem to be the normal trend in reproductions, but I'm not a forger, so I can't say how they operate.

Just my 2 cents.

For what it's worth, I like what i see and would have jumped at it. Makes sence and cost effective that this small firm would have sent out the blade to be etched by a larger firm.
Also it has been in knowing hands before it reached Bob let's seen what Tom Wittmann has to say. I love learning about this stuff, thanks for the insight Etched Blades.


EW

I would like to thank everyone for their comments. Jim Billy Lakeside always good to hear.

Eric, I am sorry you missed this when I listed it on Worlddaggers. It went quick. I think it is underpriced as there will be COA with it.

The etch itself is exact to the flat of the blade and there is a matt background which I believe is absolutely proper.

There have been numerous people who have handled this, see the list in my first post, so I am not worried about it.

Again, thank you everyone.

Jim

Jim W:
Let us know how this turns out as etched examples like this are always interesting.
Jim M

I would like to thank everyone connected with this discussion.

this dagger was sent to mutually agreed upon competant authority who judged this dagger is what it appears to be, an original period dagger.

The buyer has accepted the dagger. Anything further is up to him or her.

Jim:

Her? Is there something that I don't know here? Or is it your impression that the buyer, who happens to be me, is a little on the feminine side?

John

HI John,
I was not aware that you had been named as the buyer so I was keeping it neutral. It had nothing to do with you, simply ethics.

I sincerely apologyze for any misunderstanding.

Jim

LOL John you didnt get caught cross dressing at the last SOS did you?

Jim:

I was only kidding (not PMS )

and Tom:

In the old days, when incriminating photos came up, you could always buy the negatives. Now???

What happens at the SOS, stays at the SOS, methinks.

John

I don't think you can beat a thread with a beautiful piece & a chuckle. Thank you gentlemen for the early morning laugh

Help:

Can you help me by telling me what the following inscription is?

The etch

The first part is something like:

11 J.B.k or is it 11 I.B.k?

The name:

Something like Will???n or Will??m

The final part of the inscription reads

Hauptman u. Komp. Chef

Lieutenant and Company Chief?

Another view of the end of the etch.

Thank you for your help.

John

John, this looks like 11 F.B.K. to me.
Ron Weinand

Ron:

Thanks.. any ideas what that would stand for?

John

John,
Nice piece you have, kinda wished i seen it first.

Correct me if i'm wrong guy's, John i think it stands for 11th Flak Battalion Co. or 11 Flak Battery Co. and the guy's name looks to be "Wilheum", Lieutenant and co., "Chef" can translate to Boss or Chief, in this case i believe "Chief".
Someone with better knowledge can say for sure but i think were close.

P.S. I always had a hard time reading German Handwritting even in german class (3 years of german classes in H.S. and the teacher said we were now equal to the first grade level in germany, Money well spent!)

I think it stand for Flughafen-Betriebs-Kompaniet.
The usual abbreviation is F.B.K
(Nice Dagger )

Best Jack

John,

Great shots. Although a first name, do you think the name in question could be "Wilhelm"?

Hauptmann translates as Captain?

John,
I'm gald that you are happy with my favorite dagger ! I hated to sell it but life must go on and medical bills are a "B".

Bob

Bob:

I am proud to have this and those other rare maker marked Luft2s in my collection all because of you.

Thank you and keep well.

John