Hi
I want to show a Voos etched blade
I don`t have many experiance with daggers with etched blades.
Is this dagger original or a fake is it possible a parts dagger?
.jpg "voos_dolk_(Medium).jpg")
the blade1
.jpg "voos_ets1_(Medium).jpg")
2
.jpg "voos_ets2_(Medium).jpg")
3
.jpg "voos_ets3_(Medium).jpg")
4
.jpg "voos_ets4_(Medium).jpg")
5
.jpg "voos_ets5_(Medium).jpg")
6
.jpg "voos_ets_6_(Medium).jpg")
eagle
.jpg "voos_ets_adelaar_(Medium).jpg")
makers mark
.jpg "voos_ets_merk_(Medium).jpg")
cross guard
.jpg "voos_pareer_voor_(Medium).jpg")
the back
.jpg "voos_pareer_achter_(Medium).jpg")
Can you -please- show some more detailed pictures of the rest of the dagger? How�s the pommel, is the grip ivory or not, detals of the scabbard bands and the screw(s) of the scabbard.
Generally there are very good fakes of VOOS etched bades out there, so an in hand inspection by an experienced collector would be necessary for a final statement. What I can see from the pics, the blade looks to be an original one.
Regards,
Here soma picturese oft the scabbard ande the pommel and grip
.jpg "voos_schede1_(Medium).jpg")
.
.jpg "voos_schede2_(Medium).jpg")
..
.jpg "voos_schede_schroef1_(Medium).jpg")
pommel
.jpg "voos_pommel1_(Medium).jpg")
pommel.
.jpg "voos_pommel2_(Medium).jpg")
pommel2
.jpg "voos_pommel_(Medium).jpg")
grip
.jpg "voos_heft_ivoor1_(Medium).jpg")
grip1
.jpg "voos_iv1_(Medium).jpg")
The reason for my request has been that all VOOS etched armies I have seen and I have in my personal references do have "the other" generic crossguard eagle ("B-generic crossguard due to TTW - the one that looks near to the WKC-eagle crossguard) and also have different scabbard bands. VOOS mainly did use scabbards with a single scabbard mouth screw remarkable on the front side but also sometimes on the reverse.
BUT: It is very hard to distinguish simply from the pics so I can only assume what I can see in the pics that it is a period pure ivory grip which normally is a very very positive sign. If it is NOT ivory I have in mind that VOOS did use the yellow colored grips rather than white types. The grip fittings look untypically and untypically late for the VOOS daggers I do know and have handled. There would be needed close personal inspection and some research if such parts were also used by VOOS. The pommel to grip fit also needs close inspection, normally the fit is near to perfect and not aside as shown in 2nd pic "pommel".
Regards,
Tanks Wotan for your reply.
So there are to many red flags
Especially in our hobby I have learned never to say never but this dagger at least needs some additional research and a close in hand inspection by an experienced collector.
I am unhappy to say this as we all do expect some substancial help here and cannot request it in another way than showing pics and asking questions. But these daggers nowadays have become very expensive (therefore also well faked) and hard to be recognized if totally original or parts. The total fakes still can be detected easier but I see the time coming (due to the high prices) we get difficulties too.
Regards,
In my humble opinion, this seems to be a genuine Voos type blade.
I don't see anything wrong with it.
It also has a fantatsic ivory grip that seems to be in a great condition.
The fittings are obviously from a "late vintage", being made from gray metal and has no silvering at all.
At the end of the war, it is very possible that Voos didn't use the generic type "B" crossguard.
I haven't verified my references but this seems like a typical Holler crossguard.
The blade and grip are outstanding and period. The engraving on the crossguard looks period done. I'd say the pommel looks to match the crossguard in terms of later, but still period vintage. Judging from the photos only, I'd say it is a legit piece.
This is a generic "B" type crossguard and Voos daggers have been found with this type of crossguard. Looks great to me.
I agree with Wotan. This dagger needs hands on inspection. As Wotan says there are very good fakes but a clear cut original tends to jump out at you if you have seen or handled several of these daggers. This one does not jump-its total originality is not clear.
This is not a question of real parts-except that the blade may not be real--it is more as to whether this is a parts piece. From the photos I would say it is parts at best. Now if this is so-and the blade is real-buying or not buying would depend on the price.
If one is buying from a legit dealer -inspection should be an option before final acceptance.
When Wotan speaks-- one would do well to listen. He is almost always right--IMO.
Most Heer Voos etched examples will sport a type A generic crossguard, I say most but not all and the fact that this one has a type B generic crossguard ties in perfectly with it being a later example as the fitting are unplated and typical of late manufacture. Blade looks ok to me, though of late, more experienced collectors are noting that Voos etched and maker marked blades are being reproduced, I would love to see one
, grip as Pat says looks like a very nice crack free ivory one. After all that I would never part with the money these blades command unless I either had it in my hand or it came from a reputable dealer.
Nolan
quote:
Originally posted by wotan:
The reason for my request has been that all VOOS etched armies I have seen and I have in my personal references do have "the other" generic crossguard eagle ("B-generic crossguard due to TTW - the one that looks near to the WKC-eagle crossguard) and also have different scabbard bands. VOOS mainly did use scabbards with a single scabbard mouth screw remarkable on the front side but also sometimes on the reverse.
BUT: It is very hard to distinguish simply from the pics so I can only assume what I can see in the pics that it is a period pure ivory grip which normally is a very very positive sign. If it is NOT ivory I have in mind that VOOS did use the yellow colored grips rather than white types. The grip fittings look untypically and untypically late for the VOOS daggers I do know and have handled. There would be needed close personal inspection and some research if such parts were also used by VOOS. The pommel to grip fit also needs close inspection, normally the fit is near to perfect and not aside as shown in 2nd pic "pommel".
Regards,
Wotan, not sure what you mean with your comment about the crossguard, type shown here by janjan is 'B' generic and the first one I have ever seen on a Maker marked Voos etched blade, all other Voos blades I have ever encountered have had a type 'A' generic crossguard, am I reading you wrong here?
Nolan
PS Just re-read your post and I think you must have got your 'A' and your 'B' mixed up as you mention the similarity with the WKC which is more akin to an 'A' than a 'B'.
Thanks you all for the reply`s
So when I understand it well it would be a bad investment to buy this dagger?
I have meant that all VOOS etched daggers I have handled and have in reference (and the one shown in TTW�s book) do have the generic A type eagle, the one which resembles the WKC eagle.
Here is a generic B type eagle. Personally I never have seen one with a VOOS but I have statet it would need some research. Fitzer stateted that VOOS have to be found with this generic B (does resemble eg. the H�LLER crossguard) crossguard.
Fitzer, do you have pics of such another one?Houston, thank you for your comment. You especially did sum up what I wanted to express with a more winded and detailed comment. Contrary to problems in the language I try to do my best but we are all a learning community each day.
Discussion here is valuable as nobody knows all.
Regards,
To buy or not to buy depends on the originality of the blade which has not been established--and the price.
Hi Wotan,
There is one currently listed for sale on Johnson's site with the generic 'B' type crossguard (item number: 23075). It is also a Voos etched example (unmarked) with ivory grip.
http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/cataloguemain.htmlIn Wittmann's book on page 107 there is also a marked Voos example (not etched) with what appears to be generic 'B' type fittings. The scabbard configuration also matches the type shown here.
Although not text book, I believe the piece shown here could be correct in config.
Whether it be a generic "A" or "B" crossguard is not all that important to me, as it would be an easy matter to get it fixed.
However, the most important aspect has to be the blade, the heart and sould of this beautiful dagger.
How can we be certain that it is 100% original ?
No doubt that a hand inspection would be best.
However, it doesn't have some of the
typical red flags associated with known fakes.
Not an easy task by all means but not certain that I would throw it in the garbage either.
Actually the TM is not that well formed. Also the blade tip is a bit blunt. The hilt fit is also not good. The scabbard screws are a bit damaged. The edges of the etch look too wide in some of the photos. The ferrel and scabbard finish is quite different compared to the other fittings. The scabbard also appears to be an earlier type. At least a couple ++ of faded out red flags here as opposed to bright red. I would not pay a premium price for this dagger-JMO
Also, is that really an ivory grip? I have little experience here but the ones I have seen or own have some texture or aging, this one however is absolutely plain...
I will say this is a parts piece with a fairly new Ivory grip coupled with one of the newer generation repro blades that are appearing at shows IMO.
Thing that worries me, and not a big worry as I only have 2 etched Voos, unmarked army and a marked luft, but no real small money either, but I wonder what will happen if or when the forgers get perfect, how will that affect value. I only currently own two but I've seen and handled a few and at the moment there is no mistaking the sheer quality of these pieces.
Fakers eh
they should be strung up by the Gonads.
Nolan
Hi
With a little more power i used before i managed to disamble the dagger.
Here some pictures of the grip and the tang.
.jpg "voos_heft_appart_(Medium).jpg")
.
.jpg "voos_heft_apart_boven_(Medium).jpg")
..
.jpg "voos_heft_appart_onder_(Medium).jpg")
pommel
.jpg "voos_pommel_appart_(Medium).jpg")
pommel inside
.jpg "voos_pommel_appart_binnen_(Medium).jpg")
ferule
.jpg "voos_ring_(Medium).jpg")
....
.jpg "voos_ring_boven_(Medium).jpg")
tang
.jpg "voos_tang_1_(Medium).jpg")
tang1
.jpg "voos_tang_(Medium).jpg")
tang2
.jpg "voos_tang_2_(Medium).jpg")
tang3
.jpg "voos_tang_3_(Medium).jpg")
tang4
.jpg "voos_tang_4_(Medium).jpg")
tang5
.jpg "voos_tang_5_(Medium).jpg")
I hope this will be a help
I'll go out on a limb here, I reckon that grip is ivory, what age?? I won't guess, Johnson was selling ivory grips that had doubts cast about their actual age, but look closely there are striations there, also I reckon the blade is right, nice very fine detail to the etching, don't forget we are looking at blown up pics here.
Fittings? Crossguard to me looks like an unplated generic B, pommel has the same unplated pot metal appearance.
Scabbard, I only have experience of 2 types of generic scabbard bands, these do not fit in with either, however Voos bought in their parts and I've seen unquestionable etched Voos examples with scabbard bands from WKC, Pack, and Generic, probably other makers as well.
I really don't know what to make of this piece, but I like the grip and the blade.
Nolan
janjan,
Where are you in Holland? my dad was from Middleburg on Walcheren
Hi
I tested the grip with a hot needle and ist smels like burning hair so it could be original ivory?
Yes!! I'm pretty sure it would be some kind of animal product in the least, but I would bow to superior knowledge.
jan, you never said where you are from in Holland? I have many relatives there
Nolan
Hi Nolan
Yesterday I sent you a PM
is this the structure of ivory?
As I said earlier, it is definately ivory. I also think it is older as the grips that were recently sold didn't have the lustre yours has. It is abeautiful grip!
If indeed that grip is ivory, as it very much looks like, then that alone is worth much more than jan paid for the whole piece, also as I said earlier I rate the blade
Nolan
Hi
Thanks for all the possitive and negative words.
I learned a lot.I have taken risk and bought the dagger
IMO Jan got a bargain
Nolan