Here's another recently aquired item from a friend. A Mint example. Sized at 58
Just thought I'd share it with the members.

close up

side view

inside

Stunning cap in great condition. Congrats!

This cap looks too new.
Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by kopfjager:
This cap looks too new.
Jerry

Because it looks new does it mean it's bad?

Well it could mean it is an un-issued rare original. Or it could mean it was just assembled in the last 20 years.
There is no exterior wear, no wear to the lining, the paint on the buttons look perfect.
Is it a 60 year old un-issued cap? Maybe. but it is not one for me. There are too many of these trapezoid caps coming up for sale in last few years. How hard do you think it is to sew on SS insignia to an otherwise generic m-43 cap.If you examine period photographs of the WSS, how many of these caps do you really see? 99.99% m-43 caps in these photos are of two-piece insignia. The only trapezoidal caps which I feel are certainly war-time made, are the black Dachau style cap. When you find m-43 caps from major dealers with altered insignia, then that pretty much tells you how this hobby works.
Jerry

I can fully understand Jerry's concern's..and his point is well taken..The piece is either a fantastic original, or a badged up repro. However..it is IMPOSSILBE to tell with these caps withouth holding them in one's hand..and this is something ONLY Ken can do..thus..one must defer to his assesment of the piece. I have a tan/water para jump smock that is 100 percent original..and unbelievably MINT..there is not a stain...scratch..pul..stitch out of place..it it is as if it was kept in a time capsule....if I posted it.many would believe it to be fake..simply because of its "newness"..I still fall back on the premise that in the grand scheme of things..a garmet 60 years old is not that old...I have previously recounted stories of seeing items in museums purported to be hundreds of years old that are like new (obvioulsy one must accept the piece as original)..but if well taken care of..kept out of sun/dust/pollution and stored properly such a piece is entirely consistent with reality...of course it is not the norm..but I had a jump amock from the same maker as minE..same rb number..Dietzel out of Lodz ghetto..it had several mouse holes..soiled interior..pitted snaps..was unissued..but far from mint..I imagine a "stack" of these was found many years ago..the jackets on the bottom and top of the pile probably were worse for the wear..those the top..more suspectible to stains from moisture..consensation, subjected possilby to more light/dust..the ones at the bottom..more suspectable to bugs..rats..etc etc..and the ones sandwiched in the middle the most well perserved..this make sense. I never dismiss a piece simply because of "newness"..I will examine it very very closely..but one must do that with anything.

I would have to agree. That cap looks like it was in a time capsule. But to be fair, without actually seeing it in hand, it is just about imposible to make a call. Based on the pic, I would pass. As Ken knows on the helmet forum conclusions can't or should not be based on pics alone.

When a cap looks like this one, I think the concerns voiced are legitimate. I have found pieces in this condition, but rarely. The cloth to me does not look old. One of the first things I would check is the material not exposed to sunlight under the flap. Even if stored well for sixty years, this part of the material should be darker than the exposed part of the cap. As is usually the case, nothing beats a hands on examination.
Bob

Anyone having difficulty seeing photos?

back to the top

I have gotten several of this type of SS m43 cap from direct veteran buys over the years. No problem with these being wartime. I think they came in very late and many were still in QM depots when taken by GIs.

Flat mint examples of all types of TK items show up. It's only 60 years ago for gosh sakes!Something taken from a depot and going right into a footlocker is still going to be pretty much the same after 3000 weeks. You can still buy flat mint Civil War muskets that look like they were made yesterday. I bought a bundle of 25 unissued Civil war cavalry jackets out of NYC costume shop in the 1970s. The ones packeted in the center were flat mint except for some age smell.The colors as fresh as new and buttons with all the gilt bright.

While I have not found the green version, I have found several of the Black SS M43s from Dachau veterans that were 100% stone mint, even sixty years later. I even have one in inventory now, so these do exist in this state.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron:
Here is my M-43 Panzer EM, single button,picked it up from GP a while back. he said it was obtained from a retired american tanker. There are some faded markings inside, I can only make out "1944" date. My photos are not that good but the cap does show minimal wear..I would appreciate any comments..I have only seen this style in photos, not the typical Dachau model..thanks. As you can see I tried taking photos in different lighting..I am just not good with the camera

another

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Sorry, I am no expert on cloth, especially hats. I only know the source of my headgear-the veteran.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

-the veteran-

Ron, that doesn't mean all is always correct. I know a forum member he bought a vet lot and there was mostly all bogus stuff included and I saw this several time on my own nation wide. I buy this that I know, otherwise the chances are to high to get burned.

Well, I'll tell you Robert, when you buy over 300 pieces and the rest are good and you buy them at the vet's house and all his family items to include his medals, uniforms and scrapbooks are there and the rest is all good, you have a fairly good idea that the hat is original. Just a guess on Tom and my part, however.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

however, of course you have to know it Ron

I talk about the chances as you mentioned above -the veteran-, that sound like it is alaways good but it isn't always in that way as we all know it. But of course the chances are top high but not always.

I posted this about another similar situation and thought it applied here as well . Recently I found a Post where another Collector said that it has turned into sortofa �Search & Destroy� game for us �whether it be an outright Fake , a Fantasy item ..or a period Item that�s been modified to increase its value �we enjoy the Hunt for the fakes and exposing them for what they are. After years , we�ve also developed an �Eye� which helps us identify weaknesses and anything that would tip us off that an item has problems �and there�s no way we could have done this without today�s Forums and the Information we share on them.
The Fakes and Repros have cost this Hobby a lot more than just Money.

The problem I�ve seen and one that Frustrates the Hell out of me�is that we�ve become so preoccupied pointing out the Flaws on everything , that sometimes we are losing focus and ..we�ve become too quick to mis-label an item as Fake rather than spend a little more time on it ..researching a little deeper, and sometimes finding out that in the end � we were wrong and it was real.

But with the quality of Repros out there ..I guess It�s easier and safer to question everything unless it�s an obvious text book example.
Without really having an item in hand and relying only on a few pictures ..it�s not always easy to know what we are looking at.

That�s why it�s great that we continue to share & discuss , that�s contributing to our Hobby. I�d love to see more Collectors post their opinion and actually back up what they saying �explain WHY they feel something is a repro or the points that ID it as real to them...We all hate the one liners, they only snowball and many times create problems and hard feelings that last (in some cases) for years. The way I look at it --we�re here to share, learn & educate ���..not to alienate.
I�m convinced there�s no such thing as an Expert in this Hobby ..but I know many Collectors are hesitant to voice their opinions because debates can get messy.

So ..here�s my 2 cents on the Caps ..attack at your leisure

Ken B �Yes , it looks new �and I agree with Ron about the Black Dachau Caps. But as Bob said, without holding it in your hand �I would find it hard to dismiss it by the pictures alone. I didn�t compare the insignia with known examples to see how it matches up ..but that could be a start.

As far as Harrison�s cap �the way the Eagle is sewn on worries me . The Eagle looks a little high and a little oversized to me (maybe from the extra fabric) ..speaking of which ,the extra fabric is not tucked under and then sewn the way the TK looks like it is. Also looks like 2 different style patches �the pic makes the TK look like flat wire and the Eagle looks like cloth thread (maybe I�m not seeing it correctly ?) Could the cap have come with just the TK and the Eagle was added later ? I wonder if there�s any evidence of stitching showing on the Liner behind the insignia?

The Statement Below is True<
The Statement Above is False<

Even though this thread was about an SS cap ..I thought I'd add this since we started discussing making a call on a Cap based on pictures.
I'm not done researching this one ...but I'd like to hear your "gut" views.
"Real or No Real"??

Ignore the blanked out areas and judge the cap itself ...I was concerned with the details of the stitching , how the insignia was applied. It's the typical heavy weight wool you'd expect from a Mod34 cap

You can see the faint shadow or outline where it's darker under the flaps ...soutach is sewn on correctly through the front flap

Here's the liner ..you can see the correct Rivets and I'm not sure what that "M1935" stamp is because as far as I know , there was no model 35 Overseas cap. Maybe a ref or depot number ?
In a way ..this might be considered an exercise in evaluation ONLY but using the pictures ..I'd really like to see what your opinions are on it so we can compare notes. Thanks

Mike:
Thanks for your comments..the eagle does appear to me to be cloth thread and the TK flat wire.on looking closer, the eagle also does appear to have the surrounding cloth folded under, just not as close as the TK. Looking at the liner, neither insignia is sewn through the lining, hower, it does appear that near the eagle, the rayon liner may have been opened. I posted a few more photos, I hope they help..thanks again..I know the photos are pretty bad..

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Here's mine-if the image is not too large to post

I've posted this specimen here in the past. The story is, I got it from an American officer veteran of the US 2nd Armored Division. He picked it up while stolling in the Siegfried line in the late 1944, before the Bulge. While not evident from the photo, this cap is very well-worn. Since it probably came from a Hohenstauffen guy, the wear on it was probably acquired at the British sector of Normandy, between Caen and Falaise, as well as the battle of Arnhem.
The totenkopf is of the slightly oversized version. Some people don't like the button, but IF it was ever replaced, it was period- done, by the original owner, as the vet I acquired it from says he got it that way.
Also for what it's worth, Bob Johnston told me once that he acquired another SS M43 from a vet and it had the identical type button.
This view shows the cap with the ear flaps down.

This interior view shows the grey satin lining of the cap which is worn raw at the forehead area. Also the tan cloth hanging loops, on the ear lappers.

This close-up view of the 2 piece insignia appeared in my 3rd book, 'Breakout at Normandy'.

A very nice tasy cap yopu have Mark, I hope you are doing good my friend in DET.

Harrison!

I hate to be suspicious but please post a sharp close up of that eagle. People have critizied me for being negative before but I stick out my chin again. Right should be right. It looks like a known repro eagle to me on your cap. Skull looks fine though. But sharper photos of the insignias are needed if you want my opinion.

Im sorry,
Felix

Eagle is typical known GOOD pattern, looks fine to me!

No, its a matching a known repro eagle. Differences between this and the original is very fine and you need to study the missing thread between the eagles legs, which the repro is famous for. There are other details like the inner wing feathers as well that differ.

I want to see better photos to make sure correct judgement though.

"Felix" - N. Hansson

I will try and post a better photo soon. This is the first I heard any doubts about the eagle, but a better photo may clear it up.

No Felix, my friend, in this case, the repo may be made to resemble this original, not the opposite!

Best regards

Felix:
My camera skills are poor but I think this is the best I am going to get out of this camera.If you feel strongly that this is a reproduction, please provide a photo, evidence or reference supporting your position that I can review.

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Harrison;

Thanks for your photos! Unfortunately its a reproduction eagle. Please look at the photo I post. Top eagle is the original and the bottom the fake. This fake has been around for atleast 10 years. It also exist as flat wire eagle so watch out for that one as well! Other knowledgeable collectors will comfirm my conclusions if you chose not to believe in my words. The comparison photo is originally not mine and I will remove if someone complains.

The skull on your cap is a nice original! I dont make any comments of the originality of the cap itself, only the insignias.

DrBill; No problems! If my english was confusing I appologise! I agree that this repro is made to resemble the original of course. Its infact very close as you can see from the photo. Notice the details I mentioned before as well as the tail feathers being shorten on the repro. One need to study SS insignia carefully to know the differences.

Best wishes,

"Felix" - N. Hansson

Thank you Felix, you do indeed make a strong case. I will study the photos you posted, and if in fact the lower photo is a definite fake,(this is my first exposure to this reproduction eagle and my eyesight is not the best for fine detail) then it appears that my eagle is also a reproduction. I thank you for you input. I would be most greatful for anyone elses opinion or comments before I close the subject and put this eagle to rest. Thanks again Drbill and Felix.

Felix is spot on with his assessment and concerns the eagle is a fake, it has actually been around though a lot longer early 80's was when i fist encountered them, they are available in flatwire, white and golden yellow, here is the yellow example, the one shown in the picture posted by felix is the fake flatwire example
cheers
Gary

Here is the example that is on the cap above.

These have been coiped more than once as well, the early examples have a more matt look the later ones a more silky look.
cheers
Gary
PS Felix no on will complain about the photo you posted above :-)

I stand corrected. Thank you Felix for a thorough and positive response!

Here's one with vet provenance from my collection.
Similar style of wreath around the swastika, but note the relatively long, slender neck on the bird.