Here is an eagle that I have a chance to purchase. Brad. I am tired of the bickering. I know it mostly my fault so lets start over and on the right track. So what are your opinions on this. Like I said I know asolutely nothing when it comes to ss cloth items!
SSman

Let me begin by saying 'I don't know'. There are some known originals out there that are 'not pretty birds' and the quality of their construction leaves something to be desired. This bird is not pretty but, it does have things about it that I like. Hope to hear and learn more.

Mike. I have seen eagles like this not so pretty one before but I don't remember if they said they were good or not? We'll see if there is any more replies.
SSman

I will start by saying that bullion eagles are not a strength of mine either. That being said, I will offer my two cents worth.

I do like the look of it. However, a concern of mine would be that it appears that the bullion strands on the wing feathers go across multiple feathers and the black thread creates the separation. Again, I am no expert, but a general rule of thumb I follow is that each wing feather should be individually wound with the black thread (if used at all) only serving as an accent. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Are you sure this is a sleeve eagle, it looks more like a cap eagle to me. If so, and if original, it would be exceedingly rare. A thread on these ultra-rare birds was recently started on the WAF:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231895

Brad. The person had this listed as a hat eagle. I didn't know if it was a hat eagle or sleeve eagle and that is why I just put ss eagle.
SSman

quote:

Originally posted by SSman:
Brad. The person had this listed as a hat eagle. I didn't know if it was a hat eagle or sleeve eagle and that is why I just put ss eagle.
SSman

Sorry. Perhaps I was confusing this email with the title of the other when I thought you had said that it was a sleeve eagle. My mistake.

If I were you, I would post this eagle in that thread on the WAF. There, you will likely get some opinions from people with far greater expertise than mine in this area. If you wish, I will post the photos there for you.

Brad. Thanks for the info. Like I said I am very stupid when it comes to ss cloth items because they really never interested me. That would be cool if you could post the pictures for me on WAF.
SSman

The photo from this thread has been added to the thread for which I showed the link above.

Let's see what the experts in this field who spend most of their time over there have to say.

Thanks Brad. Now we just sit back and wait to see what they have to say about it?
SSman

SSman..yep..that's pretty well it..

I can get this eagle pretty reasonably but have so much of this fake stuff that from now on I am going to put pictures on here to see if it is good or not?
SSman

SSman..it can't hurt..it is good peace of mind either way..and a good tool for future buys

Mostly, it's repetition.When items come up for sale and are posted in this forum, play a game with yourself, and ask: self - does the piece meet the required benchmarks for a real piece?

Start with the more common items and if you are wrong, find out why..what fooled you?

I find it an easy and fun way to do this..also get the best reference books you can..Angolias cloth insignia of the SS is a good starting point and considered somewhat of a bible for collectors..get the updated version with the collar tab on the front..

Thanks for the advice Kursk. I should get some books on ss cloth items but they do not really interest me because of the fakes out there. I like SA daggers because it is not to hard to tell a fake unless it is a rohm dagger and those are way out of my budget line!
SSman

Well guys. The eagle doesn't seem to be getting to much attraction on WAF?
SSman

These eagles are so rare that I think you will see few willing to offer comment, as most have never seen a confirmed original. There are some real bullion eagle experts over there, but it seems that no one wants to be first to speak up. I have added a post in an attempt to spur others to comment on your eagle.

Brad. If these eagles are that rare maybe it would be worth taking a chance on it? Way less than a hundred bucks for it. Believe me I have been burned for a lot more than that!
SSman

quote:

Originally posted by SSman:
Brad. If these eagles are that rare maybe it would be worth taking a chance on it? Way less than a hundred bucks for it. Believe me I have been burned for a lot more than that!
SSman

I have gotten burned over the years too by stepping outside of my own areas of expertise to buy something I didn't know a lot about, but which seemed like too good of a deal to pass up. So, having learned my lessons, I have since adopted the personal rule of thumb in collecting to only "buy what I know." Another bit of wisdom I try to follow is "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is."

Yes, it is possible that this seller has an original, ultra-rare bullion cap eagle and simply doesn't realize its value and you could be making a real score. However, the odds are stacked against you. So, if you can't get a definite reading on its authenticity, you might want to consider whether you mind having something in your collection that you aren't sure is original. You also need to consider the difficulty you will have selling it yourself in the future. If eagles like these are so rare that experts on the WAF (guys like Hritz, Pic, Clark, etc.) don't feel comfortable making a call (with nothing on the line), you will have a tough time ever finding a buyer willing to take a chance on shelling out serious cash for it himself.

All that being said, if it is just for you to enjoy for the price, who cares? You can also look at it like buying a lotery ticket: if the cost is something you wouldn't mind losing if it turned out to be bad (which the odds say it is based on its extreme rarity), it is probably worth the gamble at the outside chance of a huge pay out.

SSman,Your eagle looks pretty close to what's posted on the other forum. They are rare birds!
The fact that it immediately wasn't called a known fake is also good.
IF this is not coming from a military dealer but rather a private connection or from an 'antique store' Myself personally I'd take a chance on it..
They were small,,and hand made so there will be differences. Something like this its entirely up to you in what you feel comfortable in owning.Sometimes you just have to have a little faith!

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:
SSman,Your eagle looks pretty close to what's posted on the other forum. They are rare birds!
The fact that it immediately wasn't called a known fake is also good.
IF this is not coming from a military dealer but rather a private connection or from an 'antique store' Myself personally I'd take a chance on it..
They were small,,and hand made so there will be differences. Something like this its entirely up to you in what you feel comfortable in owning.Sometimes you just have to have a little faith!

Gaspare is right. It is a good sign that there have not been a lot of negative comments. Still, a resounding [silent] chorus of "I don't know" from the experts can hardly be called authentication that it is original.

He also makes a very good point about the source. Of course, if coming from a vet or other source with strong provenance, it would be a no-brainer to grab it up (even for ten times what he is asking or, perhaps, consideably more). If it is from a local antiques dealer or other source who does not regularly deal in militaria, it could truly be one of those extremely lucky finds of a very rare item which just happened to turn up. So, I agree that I would probably also be more likely to take a chance under those circumstances. However, if it is being sold by a militaria dealer, chances are that he believes it to be a fake and is trying to unload it at a "bargain" price to an unsuspecting buyer. It would not be unheard of for a militaria dealer to not realize that he had a rare and valuable item and sell it for only a fraction of what it is worth; that happens occasionally too, but it is VERY unlikely.

Thanks for advice Brad and Gaspare. This bird was actually found at an estate sale along with some other items. I would never be able to sell it unless I send it to a pro and then let them do the works on it? To bad there is not a 100% sure way to detect the fakes on this kind of stuff?
SSman

I HAVE COLLECTED SS EAGLES FOR YEARS. I DON'T LIKE IT OR WOULD BUY IT.JUST ABOUT EVERY THING IS WRONG ON THIS EAGLE.I HAD 21 BULLION EAGLES AT ONE TIME. I SOLD ALL MY SS STUFF AND MOVED ON TO NAVY.

quote:

Originally posted by BOB C:
I HAVE COLLECTED SS EAGLES FOR YEARS. I DON'T LIKE IT OR WOULD BUY IT.JUST ABOUT EVERY THING IS WRONG ON THIS EAGLE.I HAD 21 BULLION EAGLES AT ONE TIME. I SOLD ALL MY SS STUFF AND MOVED ON TO NAVY.

Well, there you go. Bob is one of those I listed by name above among the few people I recognize as experts on bullion eagles. I am not sure you need any more than that.

Thanks, Bob.

Brad

I agree with Bob, at least there is all German quality missing on that one.

Thanks for the advice Gents. This gives me a very good reason to pass on the eagle. This site is very lucky to have such knowledgable experts.
SSman

I'M SORRY IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO SAY SOMETHING. I JUST DON'T LOOK AT THE SS FORUM VERY MUCH ANY MORE.
IF YOU EVER HAVE A BULLION EAGLE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO LOOK AT JUST SEND ME AN E-MAIL.
[email protected]

Bob & Rob,,can't go wrong there!

very small pieces,,,and so rare!
Posting photo for reference as eventually their topics gets archived...

Gaspare. If those guys say it is not real then it is not real!
Ssman

Not disputing that SSman! But in order to do a little rebuilding here things like eBay numbers, links to other sites aren't good for this site..
Auctions, other site links, eventually disappear. The photo is posted for the next member who does a search and wishes to see what opinions those gave of good and bad..

I claim nothing like expertise, but recall repro M43 officers' cap eagles from the '70s-'early'80s with this construction.

They were well made but as Robert pointed out didn't say "German quality." They were all too shiny at that point, 'coz, well, they were new!

I never cared for the "Christmas tree fringe" on the uppermost wings and in the "armpits", and from then 'til now I've been wary of those details in particular on any W-SS eagle tho I know some originals have them.

I'd like to hear JohnPic's reax...

I posted a Bullion Sleeve Eagle some 3 years ago , that definitely came from a non-collector source . Perhaps others would like to comment on it as well ? mr. Bob ? >> Sleeve Eagle Thanks ..